NXT TV - 4/13/16

[SirSmUgly]

34 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

So she should quit wrestling now.  Because based on your assessments, she has no chance to ever be good.

 

No, she should do what she wants to do in her life that she finds fulfilling regardless of people's opinions on the internet. I'm just giving my assessment, which is obviously not the One True Assessment (even though I do feel pretty comfortable in my read of her potential). 

You sort of read an argument and then illustrate it at an extreme sometimes. Read what I'm actually saying, not what you think I might be possibly insinuating. 

[Burgundy LaRue]

I can't say that Bliss or Morgan will be great.  But I can't say they won't be great, either.  We don't know.  It's too early in their development to make that sort of judgment.  Do it if you want, but understand why someone would question it.

Potential and work ethics are in place, and that's a big start.   Whatever happens, happens.  But we shouldn't deem them subpar yet.  It's unfair.

[Kyuubi]

6 hours ago, alstein said:

Alexa to me would be a good midcard manager- that's her ceiling.

...Okay.

Alexa Bliss is this generation's Trish Stratus except with more upside at the start. She is one of the few women in the WWE that can heel without playing any stereotypes and can actually be genuinely menacing in spite of her size. I think she is a tremendous talent and has a great personality for the show and quite frankly, your assessment of her is wrong. Like, yeah, it is an interesting opinion, but a wrong opinion. In a sea of vapid dull women talent in the WWE past and present, Bliss is one of the few genuine high fliers who don't do mock lucha libre to disguise what little ability they have. Even her heel act is great because in spite how conventionally attractive she is, she has the look snottiness present with every promo and match. Yeah, she needs to work on her offense, but so does Bayley and half the damn main roster. She's no Sasha, but I think Bliss has the ability to match her at least and can outperform Bayley once she gets it together. I mean, if you said Eva, then yeah, but Alexa Bliss? Naw, you off base with that one.

[SirSmUgly]

Believe me, if she surprises me and becomes good, I'll happily recant my position. In the end, I want more entertaining people on my television. 

[turk128]

12 hours ago, supremebve said:

For what it is worth, my friend's wife couldn't stop talking about how cool she thought Liv's look is.  I don't know how or why she put her look together, but it is unique and seems to fit her in ring personality perfectly.  I don't remember their names off hand, but the woman with the Lamborghini inspired gear and the other one with the rose in her mouth seem like they just took whatever gimmick they gave her, but Liv looks like she put that together herself.  

Liv looks like a background dancer in a dance movie. She stands out because she's certainly different but doesn't look professional.

 

And I didn't know Carmella suddenly leveled up so rapidly since I last saw her, news to me.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I think some might be going a bit too far with the Carmella praise. She has improved but lets be careful. She hasn't made that leap yet. What do you mean Liv doesn't look professional?  She's appealing to her demographic and it's a demographic that WWE desperately wants to be invested in the shows..

[JCM]

I wouldn't say Carmella has improved a ton. She pretty much went right back to stinking after the Bayley match. It would be nice if one or two of the midcard women would step up and get to the next level. I think Dana would've been the closest if she hadn't got hurt.

[Niners Fan in CT]

They should have signed Santana Garrett. It makes no sense why she isn't on the roster.

[SirSmUgly]

1 hour ago, Kyuubi said:

...Okay.

Alexa Bliss is this generation's Trish Stratus except with more upside at the start. She is one of the few women in the WWE that can heel without playing any stereotypes and can actually be genuinely menacing in spite of her size. I think she is a tremendous talent and has a great personality for the show and quite frankly, your assessment of her is wrong. Like, yeah, it is an interesting opinion, but a wrong opinion. In a sea of vapid dull women talent in the WWE past and present, Bliss is one of the few genuine high fliers who don't do mock lucha libre to disguise what little ability they have. Even her heel act is great because in spite how conventionally attractive she is, she has the look snottiness present with every promo and match. Yeah, she needs to work on her offense, but so does Bayley and half the damn main roster. She's no Sasha, but I think Bliss has the ability to match her at least and can outperform Bayley once she gets it together. I mean, if you said Eva, then yeah, but Alexa Bliss? Naw, you off base with that one.

See, this is a viewpoint that is utterly baffling to me. Trish with more upside? That's crazy talk to me. Just crazy.

I think if you want to say that Alexa can reach Trish-level ring work, sure. I can agree with that. Trish was never a great worker, nor even really a good one. She was adequate, I'd say. I have fairly recently seen quite a bit of that Trish stuff back from when she stopped being dogshit in the ring and got decent, and it's pretty mediocre for the most part. Even her big matches, which have tons of heat, are carried by the crowd heat and her personality, but not really by the wrestling (unless Lita was almost breaking her neck on a dive). 

But Alexa has none of the personality that Trish did. T&A-era Trish was a really good bitchy heel already; Trish came into her own around the time of the Lita/Kane/Matt stuff as a top-level heel promo in particular.

Alexa looks like a buffoon trying to heel, frankly. Whoever said that the Undertaker-choke was one of the worst spots ever on NXT television was bang on. It looked goofy. Trish could actually work as a vindictive, mean, petty heel pretty much when she came in, far from the "wrinkle my nose and scrunch my face to try and look mean" singular facial expression Alexa has right now. 

I know that it's not hyperbole to the people who say it, but "Alexa as nu-Trish" is incredible hyperbole in my view. Bewildering. 

[SorceressKnight]

With Liv Morgan, there's the feeling that she could eventually be good- but it's a problem with her gimmick. It's hard to assume she'll break out any time soon when she's not even the top person doing a "Jersey girl" gimmick on the NXT roster (even if Carmella's technically from "Staten Island", they're basically the same thing), much less a big prospect.

As far as Alexa- she seems like the biggest victim of the "Women's Revolution" there is.  On paper, she SHOULD be ready- and honestly should be one of the top Divas in NXT right now. However, as the Four Horsewomen rose to the top of the heap, the women's division became that much better- and at the same time, there was also a sea change that has seemingly turned Alexa into the enemy on there. Whether it's as outright as some places saying "Alexa should be depushed because women's wrestling will never give Divas a chance as long as they push a woman as beautiful as she is!" and turning "Give Divas A Chance" to "THE BARBIE DOLLS MUST DIE!", or even people who basically forget about her being a good heel and seeing her as a top star in favor of pushing the SHIMMER alumni instead because "muh...muh SHIMMER!", it seems like Alexa is in the weirdest place- she's good enough to be a top heel, but she can't get the spot she deserves (whether it's a top NXT heel or even a main roster woman) because she's somehow been treated like the sort of woman that people should inherently be against if they want the Women's Revolution to work.

...this despite me going there and saying it: If WWE loaned Alexa Bliss out to SHIMMER for a set of tapings she'd come back as one of the biggest stars in NXT within one taping.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Hmm I'm not sure Alexa being attractive is holding her back at all, they are all attractive, top female performers included.

[Go2Sleep]

17 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

As far as Alexa- she seems like the biggest victim of the "Women's Revolution" there is.  On paper, she SHOULD be ready- and honestly should be one of the top Divas in NXT right now. However, as the Four Horsewomen rose to the top of the heap, the women's division became that much better- and at the same time, there was also a sea change that has seemingly turned Alexa into the enemy on there. Whether it's as outright as some places saying "Alexa should be depushed because women's wrestling will never give Divas a chance as long as they push a woman as beautiful as she is!" and turning "Give Divas A Chance" to "THE BARBIE DOLLS MUST DIE!", or even people who basically forget about her being a good heel and seeing her as a top star in favor of pushing the SHIMMER alumni instead because "muh...muh SHIMMER!", it seems like Alexa is in the weirdest place- she's good enough to be a top heel, but she can't get the spot she deserves (whether it's a top NXT heel or even a main roster woman) because she's somehow been treated like the sort of woman that people should inherently be against if they want the Women's Revolution to work.

Yes I'm sure Becky, Bayley, Emma, and Asuka were pushed over Alexa solely due to their time in Shimmer. It wouldn't be that they're all significantly better in the ring and are more over despite being exposed to the NXT audience for roughly the same amount of time (or way less in Asuka's case).

[Go2Sleep]

As far as comparing Alexa to Trish goes, I'll just c/p this post I made a few months ago.

Quote

1. I'm pretty confident nobody is gonna be the next Trish Stratus in this day and age. PG era pretty severely hinders any woman from getting over just by overt sexualization (this is not a bad thing mind you) and audiences today want some wrestling ability right out of the gate. Eva Marie would've been a star in the early 2000s a la Torrie Wilson and Stacy Kiebler. Likewise, Wilson and Kiebler would be dead in the water today. It took Trish a good 3-4 years to get solid in the ring, but she could rely on T&A matches and angles (and I ain't talking about Andrew Martin and Matt Bloom) to stay over in the mean time, then it looked even better when she became a good wrestler when that was the prevailing style she was brought up in. That just isn't a path that's available to women wrestlers today in WWE.

2. I know we all love NXT, but what is with these crazy reaches for "pro comps" with the current talent? First I see someone say Jason Jordan is the next Rock, and now Alexa is the next Trish? I think Tyler Breeze was 92 Shawn at one point too, and well, I digress... Trish Stratus is perhaps the most inspirational woman in WWE history. Her work ethic in a situation where it wasn't expected and the fact that she ended up having a decent in-ring legacy despite having little if any talent or inspired writing to work with until her last couple of years is no small feat. Alexa may well equal or surpass Trish in terms of ring work when it's all said and done (and honestly given Alexa's environment, it would be damning if she didn't), but I will say with great confidence, she will never be an iconic figure on the level of Trish. There was a lot more to Trish than being short and blonde.

As far as "tag team managers that are primarily sex appeal at first but have some discernible athleticism that indicates potential talent despite their current green-ness" go, let's see if she can become the next Melina before we even think about drawing comparisons to Trish.

 

[turk128]

4 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I think some might be going a bit too far with the Carmella praise. She has improved but lets be careful. She hasn't made that leap yet. What do you mean Liv doesn't look professional?  She's appealing to her demographic and it's a demographic that WWE desperately wants to be invested in the shows..

It's a fine line but I think looking like you just step off the streets with your gear comes off amateurish. It's Livs 3rd look/gear change I think... the previous ones weren't that much better. Hopefully, she'll get the required polish  to her gear like everyone else who got on TV consistently.

Ring gear is freakin' importantly, yo. Just ask Glacier.

Of course there are exceptions, especially if its part of your gimmick to look so (example: southern backwater hicks, crazy guy, bum etc).

 

EDIT: Yeah, Santana Garrett has it all and she doesn't even need any polish.

[Kyuubi]

6 hours ago, Smelly McUgly said:

See, this is a viewpoint that is utterly baffling to me. Trish with more upside? That's crazy talk to me. Just crazy.

I think if you want to say that Alexa can reach Trish-level ring work, sure. I can agree with that. Trish was never a great worker, nor even really a good one. She was adequate, I'd say. I have fairly recently seen quite a bit of that Trish stuff back from when she stopped being dogshit in the ring and got decent, and it's pretty mediocre for the most part. Even her big matches, which have tons of heat, are carried by the crowd heat and her personality, but not really by the wrestling (unless Lita was almost breaking her neck on a dive). 

But Alexa has none of the personality that Trish did. T&A-era Trish was a really good bitchy heel already; Trish came into her own around the time of the Lita/Kane/Matt stuff as a top-level heel promo in particular.

Alexa looks like a buffoon trying to heel, frankly. Whoever said that the Undertaker-choke was one of the worst spots ever on NXT television was bang on. It looked goofy. Trish could actually work as a vindictive, mean, petty heel pretty much when she came in, far from the "wrinkle my nose and scrunch my face to try and look mean" singular facial expression Alexa has right now. 

I know that it's not hyperbole to the people who say it, but "Alexa as nu-Trish" is incredible hyperbole in my view. Bewildering. 

She already has more physical ability in a ring than Trish. She just needs to connect it with her personality which is hard for a high flier to do as a heel. Her matches are lacking because of that and if she can connect like Trish who made up for her generally mediocre in-ring ability with crowd heat and personality, she can be great.  Based on sheer ability and look, I do believe she has more upside.

As for personality, she makes mistakes as trying for the crazed heel thing and it does not work. But as "snobby" heel, she does little things with the crowd that work. Exhibit A:

She gets it, but she doesn't quite get it. The choke thing was her trying to reach for the skies only for her wings to get burned and yeah, it was pretty bad. A lot of NXT is about character building and Alexa Bliss is admittedly taking her time in developing, but one day she is going to get it. She works harder than anyone in that Performance Center and to fall short now.

[JonnyLaw]

Dammit, Tyler could still be '92 HBK...

[Spritenaut 32]

5 hours ago, turk128 said:

Ring gear is freakin' importantly, yo. Just ask Glacier.

I've long thought that if Glacier had debuted with better ring gear, he would have been.... a massive disappointment with cool ring attire.

[Trocar Slush Weasel]

9 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

With Liv Morgan, there's the feeling that she could eventually be good- but it's a problem with her gimmick. It's hard to assume she'll break out any time soon when she's not even the top person doing a "Jersey girl" gimmick on the NXT roster (even if Carmella's technically from "Staten Island", they're basically the same thing), much less a big prospect.

This guy didn't seem to have a problem starting out with a bad gimmick/outfit.

[SorceressKnight]

8 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

Yes I'm sure Becky, Bayley, Emma, and Asuka were pushed over Alexa solely due to their time in Shimmer. It wouldn't be that they're all significantly better in the ring and are more over despite being exposed to the NXT audience for roughly the same amount of time (or way less in Asuka's case).

If it was even just THEM, I might- MIGHT- be inclined to believe you.

When people are ALSO demanding Billie Kay, Peyton Royce, or Athena get pushed over Alexa (or, to be more specific: Jessie McKay (NOT! Billie Kay!), KC Cassidy (NOT! Peyton Royce!), and Athena (uh...okay, she's still Athena!), while also spending even this topic demanding Santana Garrett get signed, and presumably given that push? It's far, far closer to my argument (especially since Alexa's at least been about the same in-ring quality as the two Aussies in the ring and Garrett's jobber matches).  There absolutely IS a "SHIMMER vs. The homegrowns" in play with Alexa.

[JCM]

Not this silly Shimmer/indy stuff again. Gable and Jordan are homegrown and are my favorite act in NXT. If Alexa was half as good as them I'd be demanding she get a big push as well. I've seen fewer than 5 Shimmer matches in my life I don't five a shit where the people in NXT came from I just give a shit if they're any good or not. I started out hating the Drifter I thought he was drizzling shits and he would go the way of Salomon Crowe(boy that indy background really helped him), but he's won me over in recent weeks with his solid character and in ring work. It really doesn't take long for a worker to win over a new audience if they're any good.

[Gorman]

1 hour ago, JonnyLaw said:

Dammit, Tyler could still be '92 HBK...

I'm still not giving up on this. Give him a "Diesel" and give him a chance.

[Cristobal]

So, for SK and any others who buy into the (repeatedly and exhaustively discredited) notion that "the Full Sail crowd only likes super indy/Shimmer veterans," is it possible you're conflating first impressions with appreciation? Because obviously a crowd is going to be more positively inclined for a debut of someone they know already. 

Basically I'm trying to find some way to connect this theory to reality, because having to constantly bring up all the names of people who've gotten way over with this crowd despite little or no pre-NXT background (Jordan, Gable, Breeze, Corbin, Sasha, Charlotte, Bayley, etc) is tiresome and it'd probably be easier just to write you off as damaged goods if you're going to keep spewing this complete nonsense.

[NikoBaltimore]

I always thought Bayley and Sasha were homegrown developmental women until finding out last year about them. Bayley might have been in Shimmer, but I don't think she did that much to make a name for herself there.  And Sasha was in Chaotic, but I never heard of her before NXT.  They certainly weren't getting people to say "Push Davina Rose/whatever Sasha's name was!"  and they turned out just fine.

[Cristobal]

Yeah, they got over as Bayley and Sasha, not Davina Rose and Mercedes KV, so I count them.

[Go2Sleep]

3 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

If it was even just THEM, I might- MIGHT- be inclined to believe you.

When people are ALSO demanding Billie Kay, Peyton Royce, or Athena get pushed over Alexa (or, to be more specific: Jessie McKay (NOT! Billie Kay!), KC Cassidy (NOT! Peyton Royce!), and Athena (uh...okay, she's still Athena!), while also spending even this topic demanding Santana Garrett get signed, and presumably given that push? It's far, far closer to my argument (especially since Alexa's at least been about the same in-ring quality as the two Aussies in the ring and Garrett's jobber matches).  There absolutely IS a "SHIMMER vs. The homegrowns" in play with Alexa.

Except none of those people you listed are actually getting pushed over Alexa right now, so the idea that she's a victim of a Shimmer invasion doesn't hold any water. Maybe some fans feel that way, but it's obviously not affecting where Alexa is on the card. She's featured on tv because she's paid some dues within the WWE system, but she's not at the top because some of her peers are clearly better fits for those spots.