MORELOCK Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Your opinions are always presented so forcefully, but you never actually say anything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I thought I was pretty clearly saying Ziggler is dogshit and useless on WWE as anything except to fill time in 8 hours of programming per week. What more do I need to say? He over bumps to the point of ridiculousness, which does nothing to make his opponents look good. He has zero concept of selling or pacing. His offense looks terrible. His promos are horrible. His look somehow is worse now than when he was a male cheerleader. Everything he does is cheesedick. This doesn't even get into his off screen personality, which makes him 100% more unlikable than he already is on screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I thought I was pretty clearly saying Ziggler is dogshit and useless on WWE as anything except to fill time in 8 hours of programming per week. What more do I need to say? He over bumps to the point of ridiculousness, which does nothing to make his opponents look good. He has zero concept of selling or pacing. His offense looks terrible. His promos are horrible. His look somehow is worse now than when he was a male cheerleader. Everything he does is cheesedick. This doesn't even get into his off screen personality, which makes him 100% more unlikable than he already is on screen. Except I addressed in my first post exactly why he has value as an onscreen character. Whether you think he's insufferable (which I also already addressed in my first post) or not doesn't affect any of those things. All you're doing is saying "BLAHHH BLAHHHHHH I DON'T LIKE DOLPH ZIGGLER" loudly for four posts in a row. Whether you like Dolph's matches or not has no bearing on the fact that, had Kalisto gone over Dolph in a competitive match on RAW last night for the US Title, it would have put Kalisto over tremendously. That's why he has value and is worth keeping around. You're free to disagree. You're wrong though. Again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spritenaut 32 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I dug Ziggler quite a bit when he was a heel. Really dug his first year or two in the company when he was using the sleeper as an occasional finisher. His faction with AJ (Lee) and Big E seemed like it should have been a bigger deal than it ended up being. He was a good heel. I feel like the babyface turn killed whatever momentum he had. They had him drop the overt heeling from his character and replaced it with..... I dunno... nothing? I still don't know who his babyface character is. He's really had no direction since turning babyface, The fact that he still uses HEELZiggler as his social media handle nearly three years after becoming a babyface makes me wonder if he wouldn't prefer to be a heel (as is supposedly the case with Orton). I don't think Ziggler is unsalvageable but he seems to dig himself a deeper hole with each passing week. The "I just want to entertain the WWE universe" stuff hasn't done him any favors and the Shawn Michaels tribute act act has done him less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I thought I was pretty clearly saying Ziggler is dogshit and useless on WWE as anything except to fill time in 8 hours of programming per week. What more do I need to say? He over bumps to the point of ridiculousness, which does nothing to make his opponents look good. He has zero concept of selling or pacing. His offense looks terrible. His promos are horrible. His look somehow is worse now than when he was a male cheerleader. Everything he does is cheesedick. This doesn't even get into his off screen personality, which makes him 100% more unlikable than he already is on screen. Except I addressed in my first post exactly why he has value as an onscreen character. Whether you think he's insufferable (which I also already addressed in my first post) or not doesn't affect any of those things. All you're doing is saying "BLAHHH BLAHHHHHH I DON'T LIKE DOLPH ZIGGLER" loudly for four posts in a row. Whether you like Dolph's matches or not has no bearing on the fact that, had Kalisto gone over Dolph in a competitive match on RAW last night for the US Title, it would have put Kalisto over tremendously. That's why he has value and is worth keeping around. You're free to disagree. You're wrong though. Again. I'm giving you specific reasons as to why I don't like him. It's not just random "he sucks BLAH BLAH". A win over Ziggler means nothing. It hasn't in a long time. Every match Kalisto wins is going to be called an upset for the next two years. He lost to HEATH SLATER this year. At 35, after 10 years with the company, without evolving one bit since picking up the Ziggler character, he's basically what Rick Martel was at the end of his WWF run. Minus the understanding of how to put a match together. You combine his very glaring issues in the ring with his off camera personality, and even WWE's own programming allows things to air with various vets (Austin, HBK, Flair, JBL) using him as the go to example of problems with modern wrestling. WWE gives no fucks about Dolph Ziggler. Very, very clearly. He's lucky to not have been Ryder'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ziggler's not as over as he used to be, either. His Rumble pop was not what is usually is this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanChessgame Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 The problem isn't with Ziggler's in-ring or character work, he has the same problem a lot of the other wrestlers do - they're given absolute dogshit to work with and any momentum they get is cut off or not capitalized on. Ziggler was insanely over when he cashed in on Del Rio on the post-Mania Raw in 2013 then again when he had one of the best performances of the year in Survivor Series, yet they did absolutely fuck all with him afterwards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ziggler's not as over as he used to be, either. His Rumble pop was not what is usually is this year. "No longer one of the most over people on the roster" is considerably different than "should be released." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 He's lucky to not have been Ryder'd. Literally true, even if your point in general remains bullshit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I really, genuinely fail to see the value in a guy who winning against means nothing, and losing to makes you look like a joke. That's the opposite of value. Even putting aside what I think of his work. He has been completely strip-mined of any value he once had or potentially had. He's been on every spot of the card multiple times. He's held every title. He's headlined PPVs. He's been the anchor of a show for months. There is nothing left to do with him. In any other era, he would have been let go and hired back a couple of years later when he learned new shit and reinvented himself. His version of reinventing himself is trying to be bootleg HBK. He's lucky to be in an era with so many hours of content to fill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Sweetser Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I hate to agree and I hate to say this but at this point, Dolph almost needs a long-term injury so he can come back fresh. He's getting very old in TV years, especially consecutively, and his face needs a rest. Even the McMahons went off TV for a while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caley Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I have to disagree on Ziggler and I'm not even the hugest Ziggler fan. We're only one and a bit years removed from him winning that Survivor Series match where he was over like crazy, but got his legs cut out from underneath him because he was basically just standing in for Reigns. He's still largely over, and he still has a name value with WWE's "smart" fans (outside of this board, he's still a favourite among smark fans). That's a valuable thing, because it's never bad to have a guy around you can throw into matches that WWE fans aren't going to shit all over. Whether or not WE think he's unfunny/not good, doesn't matter, because the general audience thinks he's funny and and good and it wouldn't take much to have him way over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caley Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 On an unrelated note or maybe it is related note, I think I've decided that my least favourite wrestler in wrestling right now is Michael Elgin. Everything about his matches builds him up, while making his opponents look like chumps. Take his 3-way with Moose and Jay Briscoe this past week on ROH TV. He does a spot where he lifts Jay Briscoe up for a suplex then Moose comes in and kicks him, turns his back, and Elgin dead-lifts Briscoe back up. It's an impressive display of strength but it makes both opponents look terrible. First Moose has to kick him gingerly so as to not upset the balance and have him drop Briscoe, then turn his back like an idiot, then do the whole spot over again to make Elgin look evern stronger, while Briscoe has to just hang there in mid-air and not struggle. Every spot in Elgin's matches are built to showing how strong and how much fighting spirit he has. Then, after Briscoe gets the win, Elgin (playing a face again) says to Briscoe that he's unhappy because his brother (Who wasn't even involved in the match, merely doing commentary) tilted the match in his favour so he's challenging him to a match. To me, he has no value as a wrestler, except in elevating himself. If you beat him, it's usually because Elgin was outnumbered/cheated. All of his spots are about making him look strong and tough, while his opponent gets the odd hope spot in, as a fan, you're basically just sitting there waiting for Elgin to retake the advantage over and over. He barely sells, and when he does lose, he kinda no-sells it.I'd much rather have 10 Dolph Zigglers on my roster, who may have weak-looking offence, but will make the guys beating him look like they are murdering him (Luke Harper has never been more over than he was wailing on Ziggler for the IC Title), than a guy who only gets himself over in his matches. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 You're going to be upset to know that Elgin is also one of my least favorite guys in the world. He's a dude who managed to have a match that made Tanahashi look kind of shitty. No clue how he ended up getting a NJPW gig after that match. I agree with your assessment of him, although I'd also add that his big power offense isn't even impressive when he's doing it to 180 pound dudes. When he was having a shitfit over Cesaro doing "his" power spots like the deadlift superplex. Lol. What a goof. Kanyon and Saturn were doing that in the 90s to much bigger dudes. Cesaro was doing it to much bigger dudes. And then there was that time when he started burning all of his bridges and decided to be a baseball player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ziggler is played out. He's about where Kofi was pre New Day, and needs to reinvent himself or piss off. The idea of him turning heel and working AJ would suck for AJ. I can't imagine anything making a newcomer look weaker than selling for Ziggler's shitty offense 80% of a match. Ziggler gained a reputation as a so called great worker around 5 years ago when WWE weekly match quality wasn't what it is today.. Then over the last 5 or 6 years about 20 guys came in and were better at the thing that got Ziggler over than he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Between the Rock and HHH promos, I felt like it was 2003 again. The Rock's promo was pretty good even if it was super long, and the New Day definitely felt like they belonged with him on the mic. I actually didn't mind HHH's promo either. Unlike Vince and Steph, I feel like HHH actually has some self-awareness and knows how to play his character in 2016. I definitely didn't dig the AJ/Jericho match. Reminded me of Cesaro/RVD from a couple years ago where one guy was clearly moving at half speed so the other guy could pretend he could still do a back and forth sprint 10+ years past his prime. I like the way the women's title feud is shaping up. You can hear the reactions getting a little bit better each week and they're all getting more comfortable in their roles. I feel kinda bad for Paige coming in a couple years ago to change the face of women's wrestling, now she's slumming it the non-canon Total Divas tags. The ME choice for Fast Lane is interesting. It sounds decent on paper, even if "Wyatts attack Lesnar, Roman wins" is about as predictable as HHH at #30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ziggler is played out. He's about where Kofi was pre New Day, and needs to reinvent himself or piss off. The idea of him turning heel and working AJ would suck for AJ. I can't imagine anything making a newcomer look weaker than selling for Ziggler's shitty offense 80% of a match. Ziggler gained a reputation as a so called great worker around 5 years ago when WWE weekly match quality wasn't what it is today.. Then over the last 5 or 6 years about 20 guys came in and were better at the thing that got Ziggler over than he was. This is exactly what happened to Breeze, who is relegated to Ascension-tier jobber to the stars 2 months into his main roster run. Killed him before he even had a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Lord knows I've been critical of Ziggler for years, but he's consistently been more over than his push. It shouldn't take too much to rebuild him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ziggler's clearly in the "I'll just entertain myself" mode. Say I do too many HBK spots? I'll do more. Say I dress silly? I'll dress sillier. Say I do too many elbow drops? I'll do 10 in a row. I can't necessarily blame the guy after how he's been jerked around over the years. People can say what they want about his work (and I don't disagree with the critiques) but he's consistently gotten himself over despite atrocious booking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I think Stro is right that Ziggler has almost no value at this point and his overness has finally started to dwindle. I do think that he could reinvent himself without leaving the company in theory. Kofi Kingston is probably the best example of a guy who seemed like he had zero value after years and years in the company at one point who then reinvented himself and now has a solid amount of value to the company. In practice, Ziggler seems like a creatively bankrupt doofus who won't come close to finding a niche like Kofi did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MADCAP Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 You need to drop the attitude, uce. Dog Ziggler ain't and has never been shit. Will continue to never be shit. http://youtu.be/vM9E8nnk7I4Wrong again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanChessgame Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ziggler's clearly in the "I'll just entertain myself" mode. Say I do too many HBK spots? I'll do more. Say I dress silly? I'll dress sillier. Say I do too many elbow drops? I'll do 10 in a row. I can't necessarily blame the guy after how he's been jerked around over the years. People can say what they want about his work (and I don't disagree with the critiques) but he's consistently gotten himself over despite atrocious booking. Ziggler is the third member of the Young Bucks (yes I know they actually have a third brother)? He does have a penchant for overselling and superkicks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 All this talk of Jericho being too slow for AJ, anyone would think the age difference between Styles & Jericho was 18 years, not 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Lord Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 All this talk of Jericho being too slow for AJ, anyone would think the age difference between Styles & Jericho was 18 years, not 8. That was the best part about him calling AJ kid. AJ had that look he always has on his face of WTF. He wanted to say "DUDE...I'm 38" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Ziggler's arc is fascinating. There's no question he was on fire several times during his career. That MITB cash-in on Del Rio was hot as it gets. He was also smoking coming out of Survivors Series 2014. He's a good-looking guy with tons of energy and never half-asses in the ring, even if his work style doesn't impress you. But they never capitalized on his super-overness. Ziggler made the situation worse by not updating himself when it would have benefited him to do so. This may sound crazy, but his name is a sore spot for me. Dolph Ziggler? Is he a circus promoter? A former porn star? A disco radio DJ? All three? The name is silly and I wonder if he could have changed it without it being a huge deal. I'm not sure, but I think it would have been worth a try. He now feeds into it with his Vince Neil circa 1986 look. He's clearly in DGAF mode, and that's fine. He'll make good money for the next couple of years that way and then go on to host some cheesy comedy-skit show, I'm sure. Ultimately, it may just come down to being part of the Cena generation and being seen as good but not who was wanted for the top guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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