NXT 2015 THREAD

[IHFP]

How some people think DVDVR posters evaluate wrestlers: 1. Load up custom wrestling database excel sheet. 2. Find Wrestler you want to discuss 3. Enter formula "=if(or(wrestlerworkedin(Japan,Indies)=TRUE,Good Wrestler,Bad Wrestler)" 4. Once you get your result log in to DVDVR to discuss.

[SirSmUgly]

Not to derail the thread or start an argument--but I've read enough from other sites to think there's something to that.  Not the be all, end all of the conversation, but there's a bit of validity to that belief.

 

That may be true, but does this place look like Cageside Seats or Reddit's Squared Circle?

 

Please say "No, it doesn't," please say "No, it doesn't," please say "No, it doesn't..."

 

Seriously, if Gregg thinks that little of DVDVR posters even when they write essays on what they like and don't like about wrestling and have really eclectic tastes that they explain really clearly and with much analysis, self- or otherwise, that's pretty much a shame. 

[turk128]

We all know who Charlotte is because her dad is one of the most famous wrestlers of all time. That's her gimmick, and if It wasn't for that I'm not sure her character would have any direction in or out of the ring. No a messed up figure 4 spot isn't a big deal, and it has nothing to do with Becky being a better wrestler than Charlotte.

Yeah, one of Charlotte's flaws is she has a very ambiguous character. They do use it to advantage thou; she can play up the heel or face role depending on her opponents/crowd reaction. They should really emphasize the Flair pedigree going forward since that seems to be the thing that connects with the audience consistently.

 

Charlotte's 4th in the Four Horsewomen wrestling wise, but she's also the most improved in the company.

[Cristobal]

It's Gregg's default strawman argument whenever someone doesn't gush over a worker like he does. See earlier this year, when he claimed that no one would have a problem with the Roman Reigns push if he'd come from ROH or NJPW.

Not to derail the thread or start an argument--but I've read enough from other sites to think there's something to that. Not the be all, end all of the conversation, but there's a bit of validity to that belief.

Sure there is.

That's why there's been no end of praise for indy darling Solomon Crowe.

That's why we all hate Tyler Breeze so much.

That's why no one on the board has ever expressed an opinion of Finn Bálor that's been anything less than the most fulsome of praise.

That's why we're still so fucking pissed about the American fucking Wolves getting cut from NXT.

Because we're a hivemind doncha know?

[Patrick B.]

I'll FREELY admit that I like the indie workers.  I hadn't seen Sasha Banks pre-WWE, but had a natural bias toward her since she had wrestled before NXT and wasn't just a model who was hired first and then trained.

 

Of course, I also like Naomi.

[Greggulator]

I did lump some people into arguments. But to be fair:

1) Becky has had exactly one stand-out match in NXT. I am nothing but effusive of praise on this match. But when someone above said she can go and work an old-school limb-based match, you're basing this off of exactly one match and... what else? She was flailing in NXT character wise. Her matches were obviously good and she's very crisp in the ring. But she didn't have a good match until she wrestled Sasha... who is possibly the best wrestler in the entire company. Not that Sasha carried her, because she didn't. But everyone is raving about Becky based off of either one NXT match, unless you count what she did previously. I don't know how that is an unfair statement by any means whatsoever.

2) Charlotte had a whole bunch of good-to-great matches. Sure she forgot to properly sell a Figure Four reversal in her match against Nattie. The rest of that match was ridiculously good... and it was her first ever live TV match! And against someone who is really not all that good, save for an AJ match I have to watch, which is likely an AJ carry job.

Charlotte also had an absolutely great match against Sasha. I have to watch the Bayley one, but we were all raving about that match, too.

She has a much better string of matches than Becky has. Yes, she's had more opportunities. So what? That's not Charlotte's fault. That's being held against Charlotte for some reason.

Her character archetype is "Awesome." She knows how good she is and she knows her pedigree. She doesn't boast about it or rely upon it. I think the Figure 8 is maybe the best move in terms of a character going today. Yes, she's the daughter of the Nature Boy. But she's the evolutionary step in the family tree, hence she's developed an even better version of her daddy's trademark move.

But Becky has apparently surpassed her in The Four Horsewomen. This is either based off of one admittedly terrific match. Or it's also based on the fact that a lot of people saw her in Shimmer/Japan/indies/etc. and are factoring that in. Perhaps not consciously. But people do carry with them biases when critically reviewing any form of art. (I admit that I do.) I am pointing out that fact, and for some reason that drives everyone up the wall. Eh, whatever.

3) Post-Royal Rumble, Roman Reigns has been absolutely awesome. His last big match against Bray was great. I didn't see Extreme Rules, but a lot of people loved the match against Big Show. His match against Brock was awesome. His match against Daniel Bryan was awesome. And before he got hurt, he was in The Shield. And some people tried to rewrite that he as the hot tag guy, casually overlooking that The Shield were faces for about the final two months in their run.

So, what was wrong with Roman Reigns, again?

[Brysynner]

To say Becky didn't have a good match prior to the Sasha match is a gross understatement. She had a few good ones with Bayley where she starts to show her "submission specialist" style and then around the time of the good three way with her, Bayley and Charlotte she starts breaking out the suplexes. Also I don't watch any indy/puro/lucha so outside influences don't cloud my judgement on this.

 

And I agree that WWE would be in better shape had Roman Reigns won at Wrestlemania.

[Greggulator]

Becky had plenty of good matches. I'll grant her that. I don't think I said otherwise but, if I did, than I am sorry for the confusion. But Charlotte has had just as many good matches. This is largely because she was around for a few more months. But again -- that's not Charlotte's fault. And, also, Becky's character was flailing around this time despite her really good mechanical work.

[JCM]

You mean Charlotte was turning in better matches than Becky when she was getting 10-15 minute showcase matches every Takeover, and Becky was working 4 minute matches on tv? Wow man you've convinced me Charlotte is way better.

 

Becky was a key part of the 4 way match that was great. I don't need to see someone wrestle  a 20 minute motyc before I can decide they're a great worker. Regal never got the chances to have those matches in WWE, but in a 5 minute match you could see he was better than fucking Edge.

[Greggulator]

You mean Charlotte was turning in better matches than Becky when she was getting 10-15 minute showcase matches every Takeover, and Becky was working 4 minute matches on tv? Wow man you've convinced me Charlotte is way better.

 

Becky was a key part of the 4 way match that was great. I don't need to see someone wrestle  a 20 minute motyc before I can decide they're a great worker. Regal never got the chances to have those matches in WWE, but in a 5 minute match you could see he was better than fucking Edge.

 

How about this: You go and convince me Becky is better than Charlotte, using NXT matches only.

[Charlie M.]

 

You mean Charlotte was turning in better matches than Becky when she was getting 10-15 minute showcase matches every Takeover, and Becky was working 4 minute matches on tv? Wow man you've convinced me Charlotte is way better.

 

Becky was a key part of the 4 way match that was great. I don't need to see someone wrestle  a 20 minute motyc before I can decide they're a great worker. Regal never got the chances to have those matches in WWE, but in a 5 minute match you could see he was better than fucking Edge.

 

How about this: You go and convince me Becky is better than Charlotte, using NXT matches only.

 

 

Just because you can't be arsed to watch anything outside of your WWE universe doesn't mean it shouldn't count or be used to judge how good of a wrestler someone is. You want more information not less when trying to fairly evaluate someone.

[MonteCarl]

I think people have already tried that, pointing to her short TV matches where she has shown that she gets and understands psychology and wrestling fundamentals as a whole much better than Charlotte does at this point. Charlotte can still sometimes look lost and unsure of herself out there. She has absolutely 100% improved from her debut where she looked like she was doing an over rehearsed gymnastics routine instead of competing in a match, but she is not anywhere near as confident in the ring as Becky is, and that just comes with experience. A year from now when she has a ton more main roster experience under her belt, Charlotte very well could be the best female wrestler in the world. But for now, I can totally see where others are coming from saying Becky is better.

 

But I don't know why anybody should need to be be convinced that one is better than the other. It's an opinion. You think Charlotte is better. Others think Becky is better. And I don't think either are budging from their opinions no matter who points to what matches either has had.

[JCM]

 

You mean Charlotte was turning in better matches than Becky when she was getting 10-15 minute showcase matches every Takeover, and Becky was working 4 minute matches on tv? Wow man you've convinced me Charlotte is way better.

 

Becky was a key part of the 4 way match that was great. I don't need to see someone wrestle  a 20 minute motyc before I can decide they're a great worker. Regal never got the chances to have those matches in WWE, but in a 5 minute match you could see he was better than fucking Edge.

 

How about this: You go and convince me Becky is better than Charlotte, using NXT matches only.

 

Becky/Sasha is the best women's match in WWE history. Charlotte has had a dozen matches with Sasha, and on the first try in a televised match Becky has a better match with her. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. I've already explained in this thread the terrific match where Becky targets Bayley's leg is above what Charlotte is capable of doing.

 

Charlotte is good when she's doing a fired up run of offense. She probably has better high spots than Becky. Other than that Becky is a much better technical wrestler, sells better, is more sympathetic, is much better working on top, and has looked better on the main roster so far than Charlotte.

[Brysynner]

So rather than continue to explain why Becky > Charlotte....Who's the #5 woman on NXT? Is it Alexa? Blue Pants? Spin Kick Cassie? Eva Marie? Carmella? I think there's a legit bottle neck where you could argue most of those women are a #5

[Greggulator]

 

 

You mean Charlotte was turning in better matches than Becky when she was getting 10-15 minute showcase matches every Takeover, and Becky was working 4 minute matches on tv? Wow man you've convinced me Charlotte is way better.

 

Becky was a key part of the 4 way match that was great. I don't need to see someone wrestle  a 20 minute motyc before I can decide they're a great worker. Regal never got the chances to have those matches in WWE, but in a 5 minute match you could see he was better than fucking Edge.

 

How about this: You go and convince me Becky is better than Charlotte, using NXT matches only.

 

Becky/Sasha is the best women's match in WWE history. Charlotte has had a dozen matches with Sasha, and on the first try in a televised match Becky has a better match with her. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. I've already explained in this thread the terrific match where Becky targets Bayley's leg is above what Charlotte is capable of doing.

 

Charlotte is good when she's doing a fired up run of offense. She probably has better high spots than Becky. Other than that Becky is a much better technical wrestler, sells better, is more sympathetic, is much better working on top, and has looked better on the main roster so far than Charlotte.

 

 

If you have time, go match-by-match like I have and break them down. These are blanket statements.

[Greggulator]

So rather than continue to explain why Becky > Charlotte....Who's the #5 woman on NXT? Is it Alexa? Blue Pants? Spin Kick Cassie? Eva Marie? Carmella? I think there's a legit bottle neck where you could argue most of those women are a #5

 

Emma's five. And then it's a toss-up since the only three who have really gotten much time after that are Alexa, Carmella and Blue Pants.

[Ace]

Emma's absolutely #5 at the lowest. I'd make an argument that she's better than Bayley in-ring. But Bayley's got tremendous it-factor over everybody but Sasha.

[JCM]

I very rarely watch a match twice( I think Shield's debut and Shield/Wyatts 1 are the only matches the past 5 years I've watched twice) so detailed breakdowns aren't my thing. Just watching that Raw tag between Charlotte/Becky vs Fox/Nikki it was clear to me Becky was head and shoulders above the rest as a worker. I think it's a lot of little things that add up like Becky shoving her knee in Nikki's face and not just setting there in a hold tells me she's operating at a different level of understanding what it means to work a match. Greg you pointed this out about Sasha working for the straight jacket hold on Smackdown.

 

Charlotte to me is like late 80's Luger right now where she can have a great match with the best(Sasha and Becky like Luger did with Flair and Steambaot), but if the best face each other it'll be better than what her or Luger could do. Late 80's Luger was awesome in my book there's no shame in that and she still has room to improve.

 

 

Yeah Ace I'd have no problem putting Emma third as an in ring performer. She did some terrific work on Bayley's hand last week before Bayley no sold everything and put her away. Emma and Dana Brooke have been way more entertaining than I thought they would be. Dana's head pat to Devin might be my favorite spot in wrestling right now lol.

[Brysynner]

Totally didn't think of Emma as an NXT talent but yeah she could easily be a #3. I wonder how this all shakes out if we add in the WWE Divas...I'm sure Diva Dirt has a list already made or some of those creepy Divas twitter fans who are "friends" with the Divas might have a list already made

[Cristobal]

I think we tend to think of Emma as being in the previous class with Paige and Summer Rae.

[Brysynner]

I wonder if Paige is the worst of that class? I wish Summer would get to do a 10 minute match to see how good/bad she is in the ring

[Patrick B.]

Charlotte-Summer on NXT was a bit of an eye-opener for me personally when it came to both women.

[Jamal]

Charlotte-Summer on NXT was a bit of an eye-opener for me personally when it came to both women.

 

I try to forget that match ever happened. Sigh. Talking about exposing....

[Big Fresh]

Becky isn't beloved because she was an Indy wrestler, she's beloved because she was a GOOD Indy wrestler. Probably the best woman on the scene at that time. If she on the indies and crappy, no one would love her just because she was an Indy kid.

[Go2Sleep]

There is no way Paige is worse than Summer Rae. No way. Anyway, here's my 2015 NXT women power rankings.

 

1. Becky Lynch - She's got the most experience by far, and it shows. No one's better at putting a match togehter and keeping it together.

2. Sasha Banks - Definitely her breakout year. She's got all the pieces, and is already super good without having all of them in place yet.

3. Charlotte - She's boom or bust, but definitely more boom over the past year or so which keeps her average output high.

4. Emma - Very steady, and seems to be better as a heel. Definitely on the right track after not working out the first time on the main shows.

5. Bayley - Somewhat overrated, but can still have good matches with good opponents. Also has her character down pat.

6. Alexa Bliss - Shown flashes in the ring, and appears to be solidifying her character as a heel. Blake and Murphy are a drain on her, though.

7. Blue Pants - The designated jobber is an important and underappreciated role, and she does it well. Probably shouldn't do more than that.

8. Dana Brooke - Still not there in the ring, but she shows glimpses of being a great heel. Should get better with experience.

9. Carmella - Easily the worst of the women with regular tv time. Not much improvement with her character or ring work. Gets booed while paired with Enzo...

 

Jury's still out on Eva, Jessie, and Cassie. Just not enough material from them yet to make a fair assessment.