Zakk_Sabbath Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, tbarrie said: Which part of the quote are you talking about? It sounds like you mean the OC being one of the best in the world, in which case, sure, absolutely. But circling back to "A gimmick's only as good as the guy doing it" - that part is debatable IMO. I would say the right gimmick can in fact lift a mediocre or even poor worker to something fun and entertaining. Hell, even OC without the gimmick would just be a guy who wrestles really well in a promotion full of guys who wrestle really well. Great as he is, I doubt I'd think much of him if his fun gimmick didn't give me a reason to care. Ah man, should've been clearer - you are correct, I was seconding that he's a top five guy as it stands today; I've been really, really enjoying the hell out of this reign. On your second point: I'll agree there too. The wrong guy doing the OC schtick (for example) could kill it dead in the water. OC happening to be a fantastic worker is what makes it work and separates him from the (no offense to the guy) Luigi Primas of the world Edit: But to your point, Danhausen is a great example I think of someone who's elevated tenfold by the gimmick - I'm not trying to come off as one of those weirdos who think Rick and Morty is like a Bible story or something, but I DO think his Gimmick hausen is a little more high concept/cerebral than people give it credit for Edited May 15, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 3 hours ago, odessasteps said: Is Gulak still under WWE contract? Maybe he can be the final secret boss for OC and Exaclibur will have to try and explain the continuity behind it. He is in NXT right now teaming with Regal's son, Charlie Dempsey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 Meanwhile Superstar Billy Graham is on life support. For a guy who has had multiple very serious health problems, this feels like the worst one he’s had. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 If Graham passes, I'll have a bit more to say, but we've been doing a bit of a reevaluation of him as of late. It's hard to get the image of 80s Kung Fu Graham out of your head and easy to see him as a certain way in the 70s (large than life body/strength guy). Graham isn't just selling for the back row in this one. He's selling for somewhere in Newark. But more on this later if need be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphman 3000 Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 With all the Cody stuff recently, I went back and watched all the Dusty-Superstar matches. Their first Garden match was a banger, and everything after that was progressively worse. Hollywood Hogan was a blatant cosplay of Graham, and I can't even blame Hulk for doing it - the gimmick was money 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 Oh man, that's super sad news (if not entirely unexpected given his status as an organ transplant recipient). I got Graham's book as a tip on a job I did for WWE years ago, and having been a little too young to have seen him live, I thought it was a surprisingly great read (especially some of the parts covering his time preaching on the tent-revival circuit, and talking about Vince riding around with Dr Jerry Graham in his Caddy as a kid). I get the impression, as Dolphman alludes to, that Superstar suffers from the 'Seinfeld Isn't Funny' trope a bit with modern audiences who might've grown up with Ventura, Hogan and late-era Scott Steiner doing the cover versions 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 A certain amount of wrestlers like Dusty/Graham got some of their style from Muhammad Ali, and Ali got some of his style from Blassie (or Gorgeous George in some versions of the story). I'm not sure how much would have really changed if Ali retired after Ken Norton in 1976 or didn't box into 1980/1981, but an Ali without Parkinson's being around during the mid-80s wrestling boom would have been fun too. Also, Hulk Hogan was probably more likely to have boxed Muhammad Ali in the 80s than Mike Tyson in the 90s. Which is to say that the latter was more unlikely than the former. At least we got Hogan vs The Rock, which is probably the closest we'd come to a Hogan/Ali matchup. Ali would have probably called Hogan a bald orange ogre and caused the entire match to go up in smoke because Hogan didn't want to be called bald. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS81177 Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 Ron Simmons is 65 today. And I still wouldn't want to mess with him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peck Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 Which means the Kid In The Front Row is probably 40. Time is crazy. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 3 hours ago, Cobra Commander said: A certain amount of wrestlers like Dusty/Graham got some of their style from Muhammad Ali, and Ali got some of his style from Blassie (or Gorgeous George in some versions of the story). I'm not sure how much would have really changed if Ali retired after Ken Norton in 1976 or didn't box into 1980/1981, but an Ali without Parkinson's being around during the mid-80s wrestling boom would have been fun too. Also, Hulk Hogan was probably more likely to have boxed Muhammad Ali in the 80s than Mike Tyson in the 90s. Which is to say that the latter was more unlikely than the former. At least we got Hogan vs The Rock, which is probably the closest we'd come to a Hogan/Ali matchup. Ali would have probably called Hogan a bald orange ogre and caused the entire match to go up in smoke because Hogan didn't want to be called bald. Maybe this is bullshit, but it does have some logic to it (I will explain): According to Nash, Vince brought him into the office and wanted him to box Tyson in Central Park when he (Nash) was WWF Champion. Then, when he rightly refused to do that cause that's fucking ridiculous, Vince told him he would be dropping the belt to Bret at Survivor Series. I can see Vince in his desperation feeling like Tyson being fresh out of prison would generate enough buzz to do a huge buyrate especially with him being set up to challenge for a world title the next year. I mean the LT thing worked for what it was. However, this would be a much bigger than that. Add in that eventually Tyson did have a tuneup fight (on his way to fighting for a version of the world heavyweight title) with Buster Mathis Jr. on Fox for their short lived boxing series right around the time WWF did their replay for WrestleMania XI on Fox. That Buster Mathis Jr. fight did insane numbers. I can see Vince wanting to be in the Tyson business with discernible strategy for him. So the best he probably think of his champion at the time trying to actually fight Mike Tyson. That said, even if they decided to work it, Tyson wasn't going to do anything at the time for less than eight figures. When he got into the hot water based on what happened in the 2nd Holyfield fight, he had to humble himself and accept a more reasonable amount to work with WWF. That wasn't going to happen in 1995 especially with Don King at the reins. By the time Tyson got out of prison, the McNeeley travesty, the Mathis Jr. tuneup, and IIRC what ended being his second destruction of Frank Bruno with this time Bruno coming in as champion were all pretty much set up. So the earliest he would have been able to do anything is at WrestleMania XII. As far as Ali goes, I just watched the Ron Lyle fight from 1975. Sadly, you can tell Ali isn't as quick on the draw cognitively even then especially compared to 60s when he was truly the Louisville Lip. If the you watch first episode of the Ken Burns' doc on Ali which covers all the up to the Liston fights (the first one where Liston quits and the controversial phantom punch in the rematch), you would have believed this dude would have been the biggest draw in pro wrestling history had he not had those sponsors in Louisville that funded his foray into pro boxing. He was that excellent in terms of athleticism and that charismatic. Seriously, I watch some Georgia stuff every now and again. For the Flair-Butch Reed program, they brought in Earnie Shavers. I mean that's a super credible name cause he had the reputation as one of the hardest punchers ever. However, poor Flair (and Ole) cannot get much out of him. It was the same with Frazier during the Million Dollar Challenge for Starrcade 1984. Joe, just like Earnie, made his living knocking people the fuck out and not as an orator. All I can imagine is Flair going at it with 1960s Ali, and it just being the goddamn best thing ever. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 29 minutes ago, Peck said: Which means the Kid In The Front Row is probably 40. Time is crazy. Seriously. Thankfully, someone reuploaded the Wrestling Challenge episodes from the mid 90s when they were being dropped from syndication in many markets something fierce. The wrestling generally is nothing to write home about. However, the commercials are still attached and usually are amazing. For example, because it's taped off the Fox 5 affiliate, you had a commercial for The Wiz (the store, not the amazing Diana Ross/Michael Jackson movie with Nipsey Russell). The commercial suffice to say doesn't age well cause it's hyping up how awesome their sales were cause of the ridiculous cheap prices you can buy CDs for versus their competitors. Yeah, they been out of business now for 20 years. Anyway, my larger point was about the two Skittles "How Many Combinations" ads with all the teenagers in them that air damn near every Challenge episode where I am at timeline wise. One features Marty Belafsky. You will know his face if you don't know the name. The other one features Dante Basco, who for five or six years straight, played the young, racially ambiguous hip kid in virtually everything. He had that market cornered. They were both either 17 or 18 when those commercials were shot. They are both 47 (!). Holy fuck. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 Or prime Ali vs Buddy Rogers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 I'm plugging Ali into the Andre the Giant spot in early 1987 with him getting a smaller trophy than Hogan and turning heel to headline Wrestlemania 3 Yes, there's no way in hell that was even remotely possible. Andre, for all his problems, was still in better condition than 1987 Ali. Although Bobby Heenan probably would have had to answer to Bundini Brown in the chain of command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 25 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said: I'm plugging Ali into the Andre the Giant spot in early 1987 with him getting a smaller trophy than Hogan and turning heel to headline Wrestlemania 3 Yes, there's no way in hell that was even remotely possible. Andre, for all his problems, was still in better condition than 1987 Ali. Although Bobby Heenan probably would have had to answer to Bundini Brown in the chain of command. Man, Bobby was on his A-game during that Mania III contract signing. And to be fair, so was Andre especially for a guy whose first language wasn't English. That's how you execute a perfect wrestling story. As far the timeline, how much was Tyson's life spending out control (the management issues brought on by the death of Jim Jacobs in 1988, the countless lawsuits, the Robin Givens stuff, the car accident, and just being socially irresponsible in general) in the late 80s hurt his chance of being involved with WWF. He could have been involved with them WAY before the Buster Douglas upset. The Trump connection was there cause he fought several times in Trump owned properties. Keep in mind, he also fought almost exclusively in the the upstate New York and NY/NJ area before he ever won a piece of the world title. He was gaining serious steam like a half dozen fights into his career. I mean he fought damn near every other week early on in his career. There is a chance socially stunted 18 or 19 year old Mike Tyson does something with WWF right before he absolutely clowns Trevor Berbick for the WBC title. Had Vince done that, he would looked like an absolute genius and it would have been even bigger than Rock 'n' Wrestling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 (edited) kinda wild that we got a Don King promo on WWF TV in 1998 and also Shane McMahon ended up causing the split between Tyson and Don King edit: while Don King's star had faded dramatically by the Guest GM era of Raw, I just thought of the idea of Don King being the Raw GM for a night sometime in the 2010s with all of his favorite superstars going over in suspicious ways. Edited May 16, 2023 by Cobra Commander 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 7 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said: kinda wild that we got a Don King promo on WWF TV in 1998 and also Shane McMahon ended up causing the split between Tyson and Don King Vince is a snake oil salesman. So that makes Don is the dude who SELLS the snake oil to the snake oil salesman. Don King, who hasn't really been that relevant a boxing promoter in at least 10 years, is still able to somehow con folks (like Adrien Broner who once said he would NEVER sign with Don King) into signing deals with him to keep Don King Productions alive. That's a level of skill that no one has. Not even Heyman. Also, anytime Don King is mentioned, all I think of him going "VIVA PUERTO RICO!". That will not escape my mind. My favorite iteration is him trolling Bob Arum in the post fight presser after his fighter Tito Trinidad beat Oscar De La Hoya (who Bob was promoting) by a close decision. He said it like 150 times. Bob had to sit there and take it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 8 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said: kinda wild that we got a Don King promo on WWF TV in 1998 and also Shane McMahon ended up causing the split between Tyson and Don King What is the story to this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 7 minutes ago, Eivion said: What is the story to this? They were already on the outs by the time WWF really came into play. Their relationship really started to disintegrate when it became clear Don financially was fucking him. He (Mike) was already making ridiculous sums of money, but technically, he should have been making more somehow. There is a clip from around that time or right before he started working with WWF where Mike legit is going to beat Don's ass while they were sitting side by side in an interview. It was ugly. So I dunno if Shane played a role other than escalating an already hot fire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 They discussed this on BTS recently. Mike didn’t realize that he didn’t own his image rights when the WWF tried to make a deal with him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 the report from March 1998 Quote Wald said Tyson was upset about his W.W.F. contract because a wrestling executive, Shane McMahon, had told him that King had demanded $300,000 for the rights to the boxer's likeness. However, in an interview, McMahon said Tyson was not concerned about the $300,000, which he said was paid to King for his help in promoting the boxer's appearance at the March match. But McMahon did say that he told Tyson that the fighter could be making a financial killing if he were to market an action figure doll as many professional wrestlers had. McMahon said it was then that Tyson realized he would have to go through King to get those deals because the promoter had secured the rights to his likeness. ''I said, 'Mike, you are the hottest property in sports,' '' McMahon said. ''The next thing I knew, he started to sever his relationship with Don.'' https://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/24/sports/boxing-big-money-big-fallout-for-tyson-ex-champion-blames-promoter-for-financial.html 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 12 hours ago, odessasteps said: They discussed this on BTS recently. Mike didn’t realize that he didn’t own his image rights when the WWF tried to make a deal with him. Don promoted him for 12 years even counting the years in prison. There was shit going on before 1998 where it's clear Mike had signed his life away to Don. That's why I mentioned Don already three fights for Tyson lined up even before he became a free man. He was essentially his manager AND promoter, which thanks to the Ali Act, is illegal. I know some of Mike's friends and entourage were "his representation", but those dudes weren't going to be any match for Don King. Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton (his managers) were largely responsible for the rise of Mike Tyson. Jim Jacobs died suddenly of cancer in 1988. Bill Cayton and Tyson basically went at it until Cayton got fired. Then, Tyson eventually fired Kevin Rooney who took over as his trainer when Cus D'Amato passed away. Really Rooney and Teddy Atlas (another student under Cus D'Amato just like Rooney) from the get-go were responsible for training Tyson in the Catskills area where the D'Amato family home/training camp was. Atlas, around the time Mike started to gain some notoriety, left after he had a heated confrontation with Mike after supposedly Mike accosted a female relative of Atlas. So there was no intermediary between Tyson and Don King anymore. So Don King preceded to royally fuck him over for the next decade until it all came apart. Then, Mike signed with Dan Goossen and money man Matt Tinley under the short lived America Presents promotional banner right after the WrestleMania XIV stuff. However, Mike never really recovered from that. Realistically, Mike ALWAYS knew Don couldn't be trusted. However, the first part of his career, he was too young to realize what was going on. His life was way too hectic with a lot of that being his fault. When he got released from prison, he tried to change his image and was acting like he was this new man. However, the way he was being covered and the circus that came with it, he was going to be the villain no matter what. What was going on started to bubble over. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 potentially shitty angle idea: two gimmick wrestlers who openly swap names/gimmicks one day like if Mortis and Wrath traded names/looks in WCW one week Not to be confused with the time that Glacier sold his name/assorted gimmicks to Kaz Hayashi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 8 hours ago, BrianS81177 said: Ron Simmons is 65 today. And I still wouldn't want to mess with him. Everyone knows you don’t step to ron re: Hogan v Tyson the guy who trained Hogan was pretty legit so I always kinda wonder what shoot skills Hogan had? He knew enough to choke out Richard Beltzer I wonder if he knew enough to think he could do the same to Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 reading Dexter Lumis’ Wikipedia entry clicks on “Little Red” (Anthony Mayweather) “He’s 6’6”, I wonder why he hasn’t ended up in the WWE” scrolls Quote “In April 2016, Mayweather was arrested for domestic assault after allegedly head-butting his wife” ”Yep, that explains it” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister TV Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 2 hours ago, zendragon said: Everyone knows you don’t step to ron re: Hogan v Tyson the guy who trained Hogan was pretty legit so I always kinda wonder what shoot skills Hogan had? He knew enough to choke out Richard Beltzer I wonder if he knew enough to think he could do the same to Tyson Tyson would punch Hogan in the gut and the Hulkster would be shitting blood for the next year. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts