May 2023 Wrestling Talk

[Dolfan in NYC]

The Draft continues tomorrow!   Better pick up Rhea quick or there's gonna be some awkwardness!

Also, look, I don't follow AEW all *that* closely, but are they seriously running heel vs. heel at their PPV?   Don't tell me Max or Sammy are faces, they are both disgusting pigs (character-wise).  

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Max vs. Sammy will get turned into a four way after the pillars tag match on Dynamite. 

[Casey]

6 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Max vs. Sammy will get turned into a four way after the pillars tag match on Dynamite. 

I love AEW and all, but, man - we’ve spent this many weeks to get to the match that everyone already knew was going to happen. And we still have like like 3 or 4 more weeks of build to go, too. Ugh.

[Dolphman 3000]

35 minutes ago, Casey said:

I love AEW and all, but, man - we’ve spent this many weeks to get to the match that everyone already knew was going to happen. And we still have like like 3 or 4 more weeks of build to go, too. Ugh.

Yeah that's what happened after Danielson beat his challengers to earn the title shot against MJF - an entire month of stalling and dragging things out until the PPV

[A_K]

6 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

The Draft continues tomorrow!   Better pick up Rhea quick or there's gonna be some awkwardness!

Also, look, I don't follow AEW all *that* closely, but are they seriously running heel vs. heel at their PPV?   Don't tell me Max or Sammy are faces, they are both disgusting pigs (character-wise).  

Even the previously-rabid AEW fans don't follow it closely anymore -- you're not missing much. The fan-fiction writer has gotten so bad that the booking is 100% up there now with latter-stages Russo WCW (start of New Blood / Millionaire's Club was unquestionably better than whatever segment one turns to in AEW at the moment) & Hogan-TNA. He earns some reprieve in some quarters still because instead of continuing stories week-to-week and compounding on their lameness, he seems to either just forget the workers ever existed and vanish them from television sets or debut a new toy-of-the-month to distract for a little while so people can't keep track.

I'd challenge anyone to give me 4 names forming the top-of-the-card, World Title angle in the history of televised network-television more green (/outright terrible) than Perry, Guevara .. then the far-better but still not ready Darby and finally MJF who has to supervise it all.

Edited May 1, 2023 by A_K

[Matt D]

5 hours ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Yeah that's what happened after Danielson beat his challengers to earn the title shot against MJF - an entire month of stalling and dragging things out until the PPV

And that was with the Starks mini program along the way too. It probably makes sense to have the champ with 1-2 programs while the challenger gets built up before a PPV, but with Max's deal that he only wrestles a few times a year, that becomes innately hard.

BUT, in the face of the whiny bit of bad faith tone in the post above mine, let me be entirely clear that there's still a lot to enjoy on any given Wednesday or Friday (or Thursday, or Tuesday, or Sunday morning). I'm writing up both Sammy vs Darby and Orange vs Bandido tonight for SC and toss a bunch of words at both.

It does make me wonder if they wouldn't be better served by 6 PPVs a year and again, if a soft brand split and more Punk influence isn't going to help things just a little.

Plus there's been a lot of talk about bringing in a new continuity writer (with a loose rumor that it's Will Washington but that's more of a matter of timing than anything else).

Edited May 1, 2023 by Matt D

[Kevin Wilson]

Dolfan choosing chaos to start the month by mentioning AEW in a "I know just enough about AEW to start a problem" kind of way 

[Dolfan in NYC]

43 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

Dolfan choosing chaos to start the month by mentioning AEW in a "I know just enough about AEW to start a problem" kind of way 

Ain't I a stinker? 

[A_K]

4 hours ago, Matt D said:

BUT, in the face of the whiny bit of bad faith tone in the post above mine, let me be entirely clear that there's still a lot to enjoy on any given Wednesday or Friday (or Thursday, or Tuesday, or Sunday morning). I'm writing up both Sammy vs Darby and Orange vs Bandido tonight for SC and toss a bunch of words at both.

It does make me wonder if they wouldn't be better served by 6 PPVs a year and again, if a soft brand split and more Punk influence isn't going to help things just a little.

Plus there's been a lot of talk about bringing in a new continuity writer (with a loose rumor that it's Will Washington but that's more of a matter of timing than anything else).

Who is whining, or writing in bad faith? Your ilk love to throw out the barbs in face of divergent opinions: I’ll file this alongside the fellow who called me a “cunt” in the main thread, proceeded to wander into the ratings thread and accuse of “cherry picking data”, then offer no counter point of view or statistics. 
 

I don’t mind though. I’ll simply repeat the question, given this is a wrestling discussion forum after all, and not one where we should all be precious about our hobbies being examined (after all, people were happy to throw and continue to throw vitriol at WWE management and creative personnel for years on years).

Which nationally televised pro wrestling promotion in history has thrown up a weaker foursome in Jack Perry, Sammy Guevara, Darby Allin & MJF to head their product? If any, who were the talent concerned?

[Matt D]

2 minutes ago, A_K said:

Who is whining, or writing in bad faith? Your ilk love to throw out the barbs in face of divergent opinions: I’ll file this alongside the fellow who called me a “cunt” in the main thread, proceeded to wander into the ratings thread and accuse of “cherry picking data”, then offer no counter point of view or statistics. 
 

I don’t mind though. I’ll simply repeat the question, given this is a wrestling discussion forum after all, and not one where we should all be precious about our hobbies being examined (after all, people were happy to throw and continue to throw vitriol at WWE management and creative personnel for years on years).

Which nationally televised pro wrestling promotion in history has thrown up a weaker foursome in Jack Perry, Sammy Guevara, Darby Allin & MJF to head their product? If any, who were the talent concerned?

What brings you joy in life, friend?

[Dolfan in NYC]

10 minutes ago, Matt D said:

What brings you joy in life, friend?

Hopefully this. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 hour ago, A_K said:

(after all, people were happy to throw and continue to throw vitriol at WWE management and creative personnel for years on years).

As an AEW ride-or-die who has spent years (decades at this point) shitting on WWE here, I just wanna state that to me, the distinction is that even though the quality of AEW's show has slipped a bit over the last 8 months, I don't feel like TK & Co. actively resent me/us as their audience.

Are there booking choices I would have made differently if I were in charge? Of course! But very few things aired on AEW TV have ever made me go, 'Is this even f'n wrestling that I'm watching anymore?' in the same way the average WWE broadcast did. In fact, the only time I've ever had anything even approaching that reaction when watching AEW is when something feels 'too WWE' (looking at you, 17 minute four pillars opening promo...)

There were times with WWE by the end where it felt like they were literally daring me to stop giving them my time (and HHH came pretty darn close with that 'my friend Mark' promo).

In AEW, a bad show is just a bad show; maybe Friday/Saturday/the next Wednesday will be better, maybe not. In WWE, a bad show is representative of a top down, corporate philosophy of 'Content is King!' and 'Fuck 'em, they'll buy it.' 

I definitely can't and won't speak for anyone else, but personally that's my reasoning for my vitriol toward WWE, and the comparative 'undercriticism' of AEW. 

[SirSmUgly]

I mean, I don't like AEW at all, but TNA threw up "weak"  main events for years. IDK how we define "weak" other than by our own tastes, though, so that's a nonsense question unless we're going to have a friendly, even jocular discussion about it here. Which, considering the tone of the discussion, doesn't seem likely!

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

What brings you joy in life, friend?

"Crushing your enemies" feels like the answer that will be given, but there really was nothing wrong with feeling the wind in your hair.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

7 hours ago, A_K said:

I'd challenge anyone to give me 4 names forming the top-of-the-card, World Title angle in the history of televised network-television more green (/outright terrible) than Perry, Guevara .. then the far-better but still not ready Darby and finally MJF who has to supervise it all.

Also want to say this: I'm obviously cognizant of the fact that the build to this has been, as the French say, 'the shits' - and I can't argue with you that those guys don't necessarily yet equal 'box office.' But as a counterpoint, let me say this: maybe if WCW rolled the dice and ran a PPV or two in '98 with your Jerichos, Guererros, Malenkos, Mysterios, etc. on top they'd still be around. You're 1000% correct that the execution could have been much, much, MUCH better - but I absolutely cannot, in good conscience, get behind any stance that opposes the idea of building for the future. And as I've mentioned before ad nauseum, this has been SUCH a needed reset/mission statement after the Punk shit. 

[SirSmUgly]

Jericho/Guerrero/Malenko/Misterio in 1998 =/= AEW's guys, though. 

Three of those four WCW guys were legitimate main event talent. I know people think MJF/Darby are legit main event talent. Maybe I can squint and see MJF getting there one day as a main eventer who looks like he belongs. But I think AEW's young talent is a bunch of interchangeable midcarders.

Still, I could be wrong! Doesn't hurt to throw up the occasional main event where you put two or more "not quite fully established" wrestlers together and see what they can do. Brock Lesnar faced off with heel Cena, Jeff Jarrett and Booker main evented against one another in WCW, etc. Why not give it a shot with the young guys that AEW has? If Tony Khan believes in them, he's gotta see what they look like in that spot. 

[SturmCRF]

18 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

As an AEW ride-or-die who has spent years (decades at this point) shitting on WWE here, I just wanna state that to me, the distinction is that even though the quality of AEW's show has slipped a bit over the last 8 months, I don't feel like TK & Co. actively resent me/us as their audience.

Are there booking choices I would have made differently if I were in charge? Of course! But very few things aired on AEW TV have ever made me go, 'Is this even f'n wrestling that I'm watching anymore?' in the same way the average WWE broadcast did. In fact, the only time I've ever had anything even approaching that reaction when watching AEW is when something feels 'too WWE' (looking at you, 17 minute four pillars opening promo...)

There were times with WWE by the end where it felt like they were literally daring me to stop giving them my time (and HHH came pretty darn close with that 'my friend Mark' promo).

In AEW, a bad show is just a bad show; maybe Friday/Saturday/the next Wednesday will be better, maybe not. In WWE, a bad show is representative of a top down, corporate philosophy of 'Content is King!' and 'Fuck 'em, they'll buy it.' 

I definitely can't and won't speak for anyone else, but personally that's my reasoning for my vitriol toward WWE, and the comparative 'undercriticism' of AEW. 

You just saved me a lot of time and effort writing basically the same thing, thanks.

I'm a huge AEW fan, but I agree with a lot of AK's criticisms, it's just that they're mostly very small fry for me compared to what I like. Jungle Boy and Sammy suck at promos, agreed, but I like watching a company that lets them try and fail.

I don't like reading most of what AK says because it makes me feel worse about something I enjoy, but I'm capable of having my opinion challenged. Where it comes across as disingenuous is in how little criticism I see from him towards WWE, and how a lot of his praise of them, and forgive me if I'm conflating this with someone else's take, is that they're good because they're doing record business and are currently very popular with the mainstream wrestling fan. Which, for me, is a bit too close to the 'Ed Sheeran/Coldplay must be great artists because they sell out stadiums and do billions of Spotify listens' school of criticism. It's one thing to deconstruct the issues with AEW and make me question the fact that it's the best weekly TV wrestling show in history, but good luck making a convincing case for current WWE not being mainly a travesty still.

Edited May 1, 2023 by SturmCRF

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 minute ago, SirSmUgly said:

Jericho/Guerrero/Malenko/Misterio in 1998 =/= AEW's guys, though. 

Three of those four WCW guys were legitimate main event talent. I know people think MJF/Darby are legit main event talent. Maybe I can squint and see MJF getting there one day as a main eventer who looks like he belongs. But I think AEW's young talent is a bunch of interchangeable midcarders.

Still, I could be wrong! Doesn't hurt to throw up the occasional main event where you put two or more "not quite fully established" wrestlers together and see what they can do. Brock Lesnar faced off with heel Cena, Jeff Jarrett and Booker main evented against one another in WCW, etc. Why not give it a shot with the young guys that AEW has? If Tony Khan believes in them, he's gotta see what they look like in that spot. 

Oh yeah, dude, no argument here on your first point - was just trying to slot in a few then-young names. Pretend I wrote Juvi/Kidman/Lash Leroux/Lenny Lane instead - I still think the crux of my argument stands (your second paragraph is pretty close to what I was trying to convey, too -  though much more eloquently than I). 

[Kevin Wilson]

People also don't always take into consideration that a title match can be the literal main event but not the main draw for a PPV. If there is some sort of Blood and Guts BCC vs. Elite type match, that will be the main draw as they've been getting equal TV time the last month in building up to it. But if they don't have a big throwdown between those factions and do lean too heavily on MJF vs. Pillars match I wouldn't think that was a great idea. Its ok to have a B Level defense now and then, all promotions do it, the issue only comes up if the B Level defense is sold/presented as an A defense. A title defense like that just needs a really solid card around it, you can't just throw it out there by itself.

I personally don't take gimmick posters seriously, I don't *care* they exist as I'm way too old to care about such things but I'm far more open to listen to/discuss criticism from fans that talk about the good and the bad than the ones that's sole purpose is to talk down something. To each their own, just feels like an odd way to go about Interneting.

[Dog]

2 hours ago, A_K said:

Who is whining, or writing in bad faith? Your ilk love to throw out the barbs in face of divergent opinions: I’ll file this alongside the fellow who called me a “cunt” in the main thread, proceeded to wander into the ratings thread and accuse of “cherry picking data”, then offer no counter point of view or statistics. 
 

I don’t mind though. I’ll simply repeat the question, given this is a wrestling discussion forum after all, and not one where we should all be precious about our hobbies being examined (after all, people were happy to throw and continue to throw vitriol at WWE management and creative personnel for years on years).

Which nationally televised pro wrestling promotion in history has thrown up a weaker foursome in Jack Perry, Sammy Guevara, Darby Allin & MJF to head their product? If any, who were the talent concerned?

It's a work. 

[SirSmUgly]

5 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Oh yeah, dude, no argument here on your first point - was just trying to slot in a few then-young names. Pretend I wrote Juvi/Kidman/Lash Leroux/Lenny Lane instead - I still think the crux of my argument stands (your second paragraph is pretty close to what I was trying to convey, too -  though much more eloquently than I). 

Actually, if WCW in early 2001 ran a Scott Steiner/Billy Kidman/Shane Helms/Lance Storm main event on, like, SuperBrawl or something, that wouldn't have been the worst! It would have been an interesting attempt at finding new main event stars.

If this is what it seems to be, which is AEW running a one-PPV angle to put four young guys in the main event, girded by an undercard with the established wrestlers, every company does that at some point. And why not? You have to take shots at some points to see if your potential main eventers really are main event-level talent. Nothing wrong with that from a booking perspective. 

[AxB]

Sometimes, it can feel like the “Wrestling General” thread is actually just the WWE General thread, being as AEW has it’s own Monthly thread (and so do the indies/ Puro/ Lucha), but wwe doesn’t. So any WWE discussion that isn’t show specific winds up here.

So discussing AEW in Wrestling General is a nice change, is what I’m saying.

[JLowe]

11 minutes ago, SturmCRF said:

You just saved me a lot of time and effort writing basically the same thing, thanks.

I'm a huge AEW fan, but I agree with a lot of AK's criticisms, it's just that they're mostly very small fry for me compared to what I like. Jungle Boy and Sammy suck at promos, agreed, but I like watching a company that lets them try and fail.

I don't like reading most of what AK says because it makes me feel worse about something I enjoy, but I'm capable of having my opinion challenged. Where it comes across as disingenuous is in how little criticism I see from him towards WWE, and how a lot of his praise of them, and forgive me if I'm conflating this with someone else's take, is that they're good because they're doing record business and are currently very popular with the mainstream wrestling fan. Which, for me, is a bit too close to the 'Ed Sheeran/Coldplay must be great artists because they sell out stadiums and do billions of Spotify listens' school of criticism. It's one thing to deconstruct the issues with AEW and make me question the fact that it's the best weekly TV wrestling show in history, but good luck making a convincing case for current WWE not being mainly a travesty still.

Raw and Smackdown's weekly ratings are lower than Nitro was when WCW was sold to McMahon. Mainstream wrestling fan, based on TV viewership, is less than 1% of the adult population of the United States. I know that Peacock skews things and there is a global market, but "record business" has always seemed suspect to me. What I will give WWE credit for is convincing the general audience that they are the only pro wrestling company and managing to make Wrestlemania into a major event that even non-fans are aware of and might even pay money to go for "the spectacle."

I'd definitely rather watch a company at least take a chance on elevating it's younger stars instead of having the same champion for 1000 days, fighting the same 3-4 dudes.

[JohnnyJ]

AEW is very watchable even if not compelling and I do appreciate that they are trying to elevate young talent. A lot of eventual main event talents had starts and stops to their eventual rise. Talk to me in three years, not today about the value of giving a jungle boy or guevara a chance in a main event feud. 

WWEs issue for years has been an overreliance on established main eventers and nostalgia. This is an indictment of NXT. Despite all of the hoopla around the facility, they cannot make anyone. The one person who they are trying to make just looked like Fandango at mania. At least AEW seems to be aware of the fact that there's going to come a day when the current crop of main eventers are gone. 

And lets not forget that WWE has been basically unwatchable since 2014 which is why the niche for AEW exists in the first place. Almost ten years of pushes to nowhere, very little getting over, and trying to fill the hole John Cena left behind. Does WWE know how to put together a giant event better than just about anyone else in sports or entertainment? Yes, you need to give them that. But then there's the rest of the year. 

 

[Dog]

It's record business because they're making more profit than ever. The ratings for everything are much lower than they were 25 years ago, with cord-cutting, competition from other entertainment options, etc. Wrestling in general and WWE in particular have dropped much less than the rest of television (likewise with real sports), making them a hot commodity by comparison. Hence why networks throw gobs of money at them.