June 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

There's ways to analyze wrestling other than 2,000-word analogies about combat sports, friend

Especially if you fail to make you point.

How is that analysis? You literally said TK pushing young talent is insincere cause somehow you're in his mind and figure out he has this complex. That's you making up shit to bash someone. You created a no win situation. You cannot honestly push young talent and if you do it too much and too aggressively, you must be not serious. Also, it must be some shit from TNA. What? That's insane. Last time I checked, Christopher Daniels didn't retire. His career survived. Also, none of that shit has anything to do with TNA. You are the one manifesting things.

[Dolphman 3000]

15 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Especially if you fail to make you point.

How is that analysis? You literally said TK pushing young talent is insincere cause somehow you're in his mind and figure out he has this complex. That's you making up shit to bash someone. You created a no win situation. You cannot honestly push young talent and if you do it too much and too aggressively, you must be not serious. Also, it must be some shit from TNA. What? That's insane. Last time I checked, Christopher Daniels didn't retire. His career survived. Also, none of that shit has anything to do with TNA. You are the one manifesting things.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Someone's hankering for a timeout.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Bad Bunny and Logan Paul are 'Performance Center Successes"  I would say...  

[Niners Fan in CT]

On 6/15/2023 at 11:37 PM, username said:

I think this is an unpopular take on DVDVR but while I think the Hart Foundation returning helped a lot as it allowed Stone Cold to turn face and raise hell... they don't catch fire if Bret stays. The US/Canada angle had some hot Canadian crowds but I don't recall anyone I talked to at the time really thinking it was good (Canada really isn't our hated rival?), like if the options are watching the NWO angle or the US/Canada stuff WCW was gonna stay on top. The Hart Foundation sticking around just long enough to help heat up Austin (and sadly long enough to break his neck >_>) and then basically getting removed from the playing field for the much more universally appealing "man of the people wants to beat up his asshole boss" angle is probably the 1-2 punch that did it.

I'll say and this is just me....   Bret vs. Austin got me back into WWF.  I was a kid at the time but had already aged out of wrestling by Royal Rumble 1995.  I had no clue about Hogan's heel turn and the nWo until I started to see some commercials during Atlanta Braves broadcasts. I remember saying "hmm that seems interesting" but never bothered to watch it until after I got back into WWF. I was flipping through the channels one day and they are showing a recap of what happened at Royal Rumble '97 and Bret was my guy in the 90s before I got out of it.  Well, everything with Bret and Austin seemed just a lot cooler and edgier, more adult than the BS that was going on into '95 with both companies.  Hogan's run in '94 in WCW actually made me quit on them as well, I had no interest.  

So yeah, it was Bret vs. Austin that got me back in after about a 2-year break and The Hart Foundation was tremendous stuff.  For my money, WWF 1997 (and the nWo stuff in WCW) makes that year easily my favorite year of pro wrestling maybe ever. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I'll say and this is just me....   Bret vs. Austin got me back into WWF.  I was a kid at the time but had already aged out of wrestling by Royal Rumble 1995.  I had no clue about Hogan's heel turn and the nWo until I started to see some commercials during Atlanta Braves broadcasts. I remember saying "hmm that seems interesting" but never bothered to watch it until after I got back into WWF. I was flipping through the channels one day and they are showing a recap of what happened at Royal Rumble '97 and Bret was my guy in the 90s before I got out of it.  Well, everything with Bret and Austin seemed just a lot cooler and edgier, more adult than the BS that was going on into '95 with both companies.  Hogan's run in '94 in WCW actually made me quit on them as well, I had no interest.  

So yeah, it was Bret vs. Austin that got me back in after about a 2-year break and The Hart Foundation was tremendous stuff.  For my money, WWF 1997 (and the nWo stuff in WCW) makes that year easily my favorite year of pro wrestling maybe ever. 

If nothing else, 1997 is the year where it felt like pro wrestling was a culturally relevant subject for the first time in many years. It's also the only year of that Monday Night Wars that it felt like BOTH companies had a compelling year creatively and had enough in ring excitement to go along with it. 

Add in that ECW finally gets on PPV after Mass Transit incident and still feels like a true alternative to the other two.

[Casey]

4 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Bad Bunny and Logan Paul are 'Performance Center Successes"  I would say...  

aren’t those two cases moreso them getting individual training sessions with people like Shawn Michaels, rather than actually doing the full PC training thing? Logan Paul isn’t at the training center every day of the week doing drills with Wes Lee or whoever while fuckin’ Albert is watching from the outside of the ring. Bad Bunny isn’t waiting in line to practice top rope moves on a crash pad while Noam Dar does a shooting star or something. Neither of them are attending promo classes with the rest of the PC students or NXT talent.

I think that’s a huge stretch to call them PC successes, IMO.

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

40 minutes ago, Casey said:

aren’t those two cases moreso them getting individual training sessions with people like Shawn Michaels, rather than actually doing the full PC training thing? Logan Paul isn’t at the training center every day of the week doing drills with Wes Lee or whoever while fuckin’ Albert is watching from the outside of the ring. Bad Bunny isn’t waiting in line to practice top rope moves on a crash pad while Noam Dar does a shooting star or something. Neither of them are attending promo classes with the rest of the PC students or NXT talent.

I think that’s a huge stretch to call them PC successes, IMO.

If we’re using those two then McAfee should be near the top too. But I think it’s silly to claim guys that are only there for what a week or two at a time, count as successes. 

And you’re 100% right. There’s no way in hell Logan Paul or Bad Bunny are waiting to train. Plus they both always get put in the ring with top in ring stars that can make them look like a million bucks. I’m sure there’s other PC talents that could including ones on the main roster (Montez Ford in particular). 

[EVA]

Yeah, WWE’s celebrity boot camp is a totally different thing from the PC training system. Shane Helms is widely credited as Paul’s lead trainer, and Brian Kendrick had the lead on getting Bad Bunny ready for Backlash. Both are main roster agents, not PC trainers.

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

3 minutes ago, EVA said:

Yeah, WWE’s celebrity boot camp is a totally different thing from the PC training system. Shane Helms is widely credited as Paul’s lead trainer, and Brian Kendrick had the lead on getting Bad Bunny ready for Backlash. Both are main roster agents, not PC trainers.

Plus Shane Helms has always been underrated. It’s no wonder Logan Paul is so good. 

[EVA]

If anything, I’d say the success of Paul is a stern indictment against the PC training system. In just a few weeks with Helms, Paul became a better wrestler than any from-scratch male trainee the PC has produced in 10 years.

Edited June 17, 2023 by EVA

[S.K.o.S.]

New wrestling crossword!

 

[Niners Fan in CT]

5 hours ago, EVA said:

Yeah, WWE’s celebrity boot camp is a totally different thing from the PC training system. Shane Helms is widely credited as Paul’s lead trainer, and Brian Kendrick had the lead on getting Bad Bunny ready for Backlash. Both are main roster agents, not PC trainers.

But they are still trained by the WWE.  If you don't want to call them "PC successes" that's fair but they are successes of WWE's training being that they never wrestled anywhere else. 

[Shane]

41 minutes ago, S.K.o.S. said:

New wrestling crossword!

Been months since I've been around the board to see one of these. I was happy to spend some time with it today.

11:16 this time out. I was confounded by the bottom left corner...

[SirSmUgly]

8 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

But they are still trained by the WWE.  If you don't want to call them "PC successes" that's fair but they are successes of WWE's training being that they never wrestled anywhere else. 

Sure, I think that's the point. What is the PC not doing that a couple of pro wrestlers can do in a few weeks?

I think it's probably that, having not seen either Logan Paul or Bad Bunny wrestle but having heard a lot about them, both of them understand pro wrestling at a visceral level beyond most PC invitees.  

[matt925]

5 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

Sure, I think that's the point. What is the PC not doing that a couple of pro wrestlers can do in a few weeks?

I think it's probably that, having not seen either Logan Paul or Bad Bunny wrestle but having heard a lot about them, both of them understand pro wrestling at a visceral level beyond most PC invitees.  

That’s a good point. I think another thing is that wwe recruits athletes who aren’t wrestling fans. A lot of these people never watched wrestling and don’t know anything about it. Bad bunny, Logan Paul and pat mcafee are huge long time wrestling fans who get it and know where they need be to make it work. That’s probably a big difference as well. 
 

It’s like stone cold asking that girl about her favorite wrestling match and she just names some completely random shitty match. She didn’t understand a thing about wrestling and there’s only so much you can do with that. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

19 minutes ago, matt925 said:

It’s like stone cold asking that girl about her favorite wrestling match and she just names some completely random shitty match. She didn’t understand a thing about wrestling and there’s only so much you can do with that. 

I definitely get the gist of that, but if you're on a wrestling training show, what does your favorite wrestling match have to do with actually being trained? If you went to the Larry Sharpe's Monster Factory or went to Kowalski's school, I don't think they were quizzing you on your favorite matches. They most likely didn't give a shit. Your favorite match could Misawa vs. Kobashi from January 1997, and you could still suck ass in the ring. Matter of fact, I am pretty sure a good number of folks at the PC could give a solid answer and still not know to wrestle. 

 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I definitely get the gist of that, but if you're on a wrestling training show, what does your favorite wrestling match have to do with actually being trained? If you went to the Larry Sharpe's Monster Factory or went to Kowalski's school, I don't think they were quizzing you on your favorite matches. They most likely didn't give a shit. Your favorite match could Misawa vs. Kobashi from January 1997, and you could still suck ass in the ring. Matter of fact, I am pretty sure a good number of folks at the PC could give a solid answer and still not know to wrestle. 

 

I'm also not going to fault a woman of color for seeing a match between two other women of color and going "I can do this too, this is my favorite match" either.

[odessasteps]

Presumably, you could get on the good side of your trainers if you could name either a well-known "good" wrestling match or something they personally had done. 

Or you could say "I've never watched wrestling, but I can make lots of money" like you were 1985 Larry Pfohl. 

It would be interesting to see a list of what matches they show students at the PC from which to learn. Is it all modern WWE? Any Japan or Mexico? 

[Dolphman 3000]

16 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I definitely get the gist of that, but if you're on a wrestling training show, what does your favorite wrestling match have to do with actually being trained? If you went to the Larry Sharpe's Monster Factory or went to Kowalski's school, I don't think they were quizzing you on your favorite matches. They most likely didn't give a shit. Your favorite match could Misawa vs. Kobashi from January 1997, and you could still suck ass in the ring. Matter of fact, I am pretty sure a good number of folks at the PC could give a solid answer and still not know to wrestle.

When you work with music instructors, one of the first things they do is ask what your favorite song is. When learning an instrument, it's easier for someone to pick up on things when they're striving to play a song they know.

Passion for your craft is important. Otherwise it's just labor.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dolphman 3000

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Sparkleface said:

I'm also not going to fault a woman of color for seeing a match between two other women of color and going "I can do this too, this is my favorite match" either.

Exactly. It's a very weird way to shame someone. I promise you a good number of folks who actually grew up watching wrestling would have a similar answer. Their favorite match is probably some mediocre Hogan match from the early to mid 1990s or some random match they saw on Superstars. They're not going to say Jack Brisco vs. Terry Funk.

You know what she should have said? My favorite match is the scaffold match between PN News and Bobby Eaton against "Stunning" Steve Austin and "The Computerized Man of the 1990's" Terrance Taylor from Great American Bash 1991. I would have love to see Steve's reaction to that. 

[AxB]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Exactly. It's a very weird way to shame someone. I promise you a good number of folks who actually grew up watching wrestling would have a similar answer. Their favorite match is probably some mediocre Hogan match from the early to mid 1990s or some random match they saw on Superstars. They're not going to say Jack Brisco vs. Terry Funk.

Rockstar Spud's favourite match of all time is Hogan vs Andre from Mania 3. Which wasn't even the best match that evening.

[odessasteps]

It would be fun to sit down a list of 30-40 year old wrestlers and see who preferred Hogan/Andre and who preferred Savage/Steamboat. (And the contrarians who say the Six Man match.)

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

48 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Passion for your craft is important. Otherwise it's just labor.

You came to learn how to wrestle, not play trivial pursuit.

A good number of folks who actually became superstars throughout the 70s-90s weren't wrestling fans growing up. Some person saw them in a gym or bouncing and broke them into the business. Matter of fact, the whole point of wrestling was learning your craft AFTER being trained and learning the business traveling to shows. The real learning was after you became a wrestler. That was the real school. The actual training was the prerequisite. It hasn't changed much since then. They assume you don't shit about pro wrestling before you train or feel like you know something just cause you seen a few matches. They assume you're a mark from the get go.

Ironically, I was listening to Foley is Pod about how he broke into the business and how he went to DeNucci's school. DeNucci asked him to throw a forearm, and Mick did exactly what he saw on TV cause that's what he believed wrestling was as a huge fan which was barely touch the guy and stomp the mat. DeNucci then proceeded to take Mick in the corner and light his ass up with forearms to the chest. There is also a very brutal yet somehow funny story about Mick working against the British Bulldogs and Mick calling spots in an enhancement match after only have exactly one match in his career.

When you go to a wrestling school, fan or not, they know you have these preconceived notions of what wrestling is. Their job as trainers is to remove that and teach you how to succeed in ring. Now what you do after that is up to you. Their job is not to haze you or absolutely ridiculed you in a way that makes you feel like less of a human being.

The reason why these WWE reality shows failed miserably and produced very little talent is they wanted to protect the business in this bizarre way and be boot camp hard asses. In actuality, you can have some aspects of that and not be a complete asshole.

[Niners Fan in CT]

5 minutes ago, AxB said:

Rockstar Spud's favourite match of all time is Hogan vs Andre from Mania 3. Which wasn't even the best match that evening.

That's not a crazy answer either though I mean it's literally the biggest match of all time right?  Or close to it.  The rematch was watched by 33 million people.  Some people,  especially kids are wrestling fans for the characters and the spectacle rather than a well worked match.