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Dynamite - 9/8/2021


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45 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

This is beyond condescending.

The assumption of diehard wrestling fans that everyone watching is a walking encyclopedia for it is arrogant AF.

Bah.  If you don't know who Minoru Suzuki is, you haven't been watching enough pro wrestling.

I could see if we were back in the days of tape trading and we were all like, "Holy shit, dude.  Have you heard of this guy Sabu that moonsaults into tables on purpose?" 

But we're not.  We have YouTube and Dailymotion and stuff.  If your pro wrestling acumen exists between the Rio Grande River and the 48th Parallel North, that's not really my fault.

Edited by J.T.
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1 minute ago, Krone Meltzer said:

I mean to be fair we are also on a message board...

 

We can only talk about Hook and Colton Gunn so much. That's when we move onto the JR commentary conversation or now the video package (lack of) debacle.

This feels like a dare. Is it a dare? I would rather read Hook slashfic than this shit. 

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3 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

This kind of response to a small minority criticism of AEW's presentation seems disproportionate. I wonder why some people have been reticent in engaging with this product. 

Total strawman argument here. His "small minority criticism" morphed into shit talking about insufferable fans when his view point was disagreed with. He likes a bunch of exposition and narrative. That's fine. He can like what he likes. But calling people insufferable because we don't agree with him is not the same as just stating his opinion and wanting more exposition.

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Just now, John from Cincinnati said:

This kind of response to a small minority criticism of AEW's presentation seems disproportionate. I wonder why some people have been reticent in engaging with this product. 

The board =/= the 700k plus that tune in to watch each week that Time Warner likes to also tout on a weekly basis. That's only if by product you mean the tv show itself, which they're not having any trouble with getting people to engage with.

If by product you mean these discussions on the board, then again, these things are regularly at multiple pages while other shows sit at 1 or 2 or whatever.

I will say that this is very, very, very reminiscent of Gregg's contributions to the NXT threads years ago. It was perplexing then and I think it's perplexing enough now, but at the same time, I'm not sure why any of us should even give a shit? There is a weirdly disproportionate amount of output to get Gregg to watch this show or like it. I know this is a discussion forum and I'm willing to guess the majority of us are typing on here to avoid having to do something more pressing at work and maybe that is what is driving some of this, but I don't know if I'm interesting in us reliving Gregg's struggles with NXT when it comes to independent and Japanese workers, but this time with AEW. After all, the guy wound up finding what he liked in NXT, it's clear he has a mindset or point of view with TV and casual viewing that isn't going to change, so...why convince him to change. I hate to say that this is like discussing something JUST to discuss something, anything, other than doing work.

We're all trying to solve a riddle that can't be solved? Fuck. I don't know. All I know is that I have a project that is a pain in the ass that I'm fucking over with working on and it's only noon.

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3 minutes ago, J.T. said:

Bah.  If you don't know who Minoru Suzuki is, you haven't been watching enough pro wrestling.

I could see if we were back in the days of tape trading and we were all like, "Holy shit, dude.  Have you heard of this guy Sabu that moonsaults into tables on purpose?" 

But we're not.  We have YouTube and Dailymotion and stuff.  If your pro wrestling acumen exists between the Rio Grande River and the 48th Parallel North, that's not really my fault.

Most people watching any TV show don't and won't do research to that level. They want to enjoy what's in front of them in that moment as easily as possible. Again, a quick clip would have sufficed, especially for potential new/casual fans. That's all.

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3 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Total strawman argument here. His "small minority criticism" morphed into shit talking about insufferable fans when his view point was disagreed with. He likes a bunch of exposition and narrative. That's fine. He can like what he likes. But calling people insufferable because we don't agree with him is not the same as just stating his opinion and wanting more exposition.

Which is the same stuff as before with NXT years ago and we don't need to go down that path again. Back then people go to the point where they thought they were being trolled by Gregg. I don't think he's trolling us. Well, shit, he might be knowing who Gregg and his brother are, but I doubt it. I don't think he's intentionally trying to wind us up. But poor choices of words have been used and it's probably best to just move on.

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As far as casuals go, again, chasing casuals is death. It's a fool's errand. I don't know why this needs to be re-stated and re-explained.

EDIT: The only thing I will add to this is that from what I know, AEW has a very robust media team that manages it's YouTube channel. I said it before, but what NJPW did with the history of the Bullet Club stuff and history of other wrestlers is fucking fantastic. They're the ones narrated by Kevin Kelly. AEW SHOULD DO THAT! Make those, throw up a QR code on the tv, tell people to check it out, whatever. Shit, Excalibur probably wouldn't mind talking over shit like that. And that isn't even something to help the casuals. It's just backfilling content and giving someone like me more time to waste their energy on.

Edited by Craig H
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to get anyone to do anything. I'm just pointing out that it's weird to say, "I can't watch this show because the people talking about it online are dipshits." One thing has (or "should have"?) no bearing on the other.  I still watch Rick and Morty pretty religiously, despite the titanic shitheads who dominate the fandom now. I'll enjoy it with my wife, but a big FUUUUUUCK NOOOOOOO to seeking out thoughts on forums, Reddit, whatever.

Now, if the argument is, "I won't go to wrestling conventions because of gatekeeping AEW dipshits," I totally understand that.

Edited by Dog
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11 minutes ago, Craig H said:

There is a weirdly disproportionate amount of output to get Gregg to watch this show or like it.

No. The conversation has shifted to condescending talk of people needing handholding, experiencing fear, having zero knowledge, fuck 'em, and so on. I know people can be a bit fast and loose in the way the word things, but I also know the difference between a pile on and persuasion. And I can understand someone expressing frustration in not wanting to suffer that.

If anyone sees echoes of previous conversations here, I hope they find an occasion to look in the mirror before toxic shit inevitably gets relitigated years down the line.

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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5 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Most people watching any TV show don't and won't do research to that level. They want to enjoy what's in front of them in that moment as easily as possible. 

Hard disagree. In fact, some of the biggest TV hits of the past decade have encouraged, and in some cases outright relied upon, viewers researching stuff on their own time to make sense of the show. Most TV producers consider shows requiring that type of engagement a feature, not a bug, these days.

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7 minutes ago, Craig H said:

As far as casuals go, again, chasing casuals is death. It's a fool's errand. I don't know why this needs to be re-stated and re-explained.

EDIT: The only thing I will add to this is that from what I know, AEW has a very robust media team that manages it's YouTube channel. I said it before, but what NJPW did with the history of the Bullet Club stuff and history of other wrestlers is fucking fantastic. They're the ones narrated by Kevin Kelly. AEW SHOULD DO THAT! Make those, throw up a QR code on the tv, tell people to check it out, whatever. Shit, Excalibur probably wouldn't mind talking over shit like that. And that isn't even something to help the casuals. It's just backfilling content and giving someone like me more time to waste their energy on.

They're building something special and interesting with the forbidden door but it does take some unlearning of what WWE has taught us for twenty years. They hit wave one of their audience that was ready to eat this up and that was not an unsubstantial number. It was enough to get them a TV deal. Now they need to hit Wave 2 which are made up of WWE fans, casuals, lapsed fans, and new, young fans that have never really spent a lot of time watching wrestling. They should use every tool in their disposal to carefully and caringly onboard those new fans and build their brand while not alienating the ones who are in the know. This is a big moment with a lot of attention and they should work really hard to get it right. Otherwise they can never grow to be bigger than they are now.

Edited by Matt D
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3 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

No. The conversation has shifted to condescending talk of people needing handholding, experiencing fear, having zero knowledge, fuck 'em, and so on. I know people can be a bit fast and loose in the way the word things, but I also know the difference between a pile on and persuasion. And I can understand someone expressing frustration in not wanting to suffer that.

If anyone sees echoes of previous conversations here, I hope they find an occasion to look in the mirror before toxic shit inevitably gets relitigated years down the line.

Ok, well that's a response to one thing that I said in response to what does look like a strawman from you, as someone else explained.

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37 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

They LITERALLY started the show ith an All Out recap wherein, Suzuki literally choked out then Piledrove Moxley

In fairness to you, I completely forgot this, so I do apologize for acting like they didnt do anything. Maybe the issue for some folks is, we established with that run-in and subsequent clip that he wants to fight Mox, but we're not sure of his motivations beyond "because Forbidden Door." 

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19 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Most people watching any TV show don't and won't do research to that level. They want to enjoy what's in front of them in that moment as easily as possible. Again, a quick clip would have sufficed, especially for potential new/casual fans. 

I can concede that AEW does not do a terribly good job of hyping NJPW talent coming to AEW, but is that all on them?

Old school NWA / JCP when certainly did not coddle anyone when Japanese talent came to town.  They expected you to know who Mr. Saito or Hiro Matsuda was.  In the case of The Great Muta, the beauty was in not knowing who he was or what he could do.

This was before Wikipedia.

Edited by J.T.
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3 minutes ago, Matt D said:

This is a big moment with a lot of attention and they should work really hard to get it right. Otherwise they can never grow to be bigger than they are now.

True, but let's not forget that right now they're the highest rated cable show on Wednesday night. If this is their ceiling, for whatever reason, I don't think TNT or anyone else will be upset.

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1 minute ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

Anyone who has seen Suzuki's promos will know that his intentions might be better off left unsaid.

TK to Technical Team:  "Under no circumstances do you give that man a microphone."

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

True, but let's not forget that right now they're the highest rated cable show on Wednesday night. If this is their ceiling, for whatever reason, I don't think TNT or anyone else will be upset.

Tone's an issue with everyone today, so I'll be kind in my response, but I'm pretty sure they didn't sign Punk and Danielson to just hit this point and coast?

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1 minute ago, Matt D said:

They're building something special and interesting with the forbidden door but it does take some unlearning of what WWE has taught us for twenty years. They hit wave one of their audience that was ready to eat this up and that was not an unsubstantial number. It was enough to get them a TV deal. Now they need to hit Wave 2 which are made up of WWE fans, casuals, lapsed fans, and new, young fans that have never really spent a lot of time watching wrestling. They should use every tool in their disposal to carefully and caringly onboard those new fans and build their brand while not alienating the ones who are in the know. This is a big moment with a lot of attention and they should work really hard to get it right. Otherwise they can never grow to be bigger than they are now.

I think that's the trickiest part - not alienating the fans who are in the know. That requires keeping your edge, keeping what makes you unique, etc. while trying to cater to an audience that is going to be quicker to leave you than the base of over a million viewers each week. It's easy to wind up with nothing in the end. I'M GOING TO MAKE A STAR WARS COMPARISON, but this doesn't mean this shit is as big as Star Wars or whatever, but look at what Star Wars is doing on Disney+. The Mandalorian, the animated series, etc. aren't exactly trying to bring in casuals. Shit, I consider myself a hardcore Star Wars fan, but getting into the Clone Wars and other stuff seems like too tall of a task. I can't imagine people who aren't already Star Wars fans wanting to dip into that. So they just go about trying to expand their fan base by bringing them in young, cultivating them, growing them, etc. For the most part, it's working.

Can AEW do this? It's probably easier to try this than risk alienating what they already have, but then you risk a situation with WWE where that 18+ audience starts getting older, gets into watching football and other shit, and leaves wrestling behind.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. Probably some kind of conservative approach is best. Don't do anything huge or company changing, but just keep doing more cool shit than missteps?

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2 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Ok, well that's a response to one thing that I said in response to what does look like a strawman from you, as someone else explained.

I've said what I want to say. I have no interest in talking about what the viewership is or isn't right now, and I promise you don't want me engaging in whatever psychodrama you're working through with regards to how Gregg engages with this product or any other product that people seem to be working through similar psychodramas about. 

Have fun with the perceived strawman. Nothing else there worth responding to.

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