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AEW - NOV 2019


Dolfan in NYC

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15 hours ago, BrianS81177 said:

The vast majority of Americans don't want high quality. They want generic, pandering crap. 

The core/niche audience isn't large enough to support a show on TNT so, yeah, they need to appeal to an audience who don't follow them already. Those people need a reason to invest beyond good matches and aside from the Cody-Jericho stuff, they aren't really getting it.  The reality seems to be that highest profit doesn't really correlate with best in ring action if you look at previous boom cycles (Hogan, nWo, Austin). They really need to develop their undercard characters and build feuds in my opinion. The issue is how are they going to get their crowds to boo anyone who doesn't offend their sensibilities to build heels and how can they develop characters and keep the pace of the show where it is.

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They already are appealing beyond their core audience. The average BTE episode gets 2-3 hundred thousand views worldwide. A million people watch Dynamite just in the USA. Dark's view counts were just under a Million per episode last time I looked, which was a week and a half ago.

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You need to build stars, and hire stars. Neither great matches, or outlandish storylines(Which is something TNA, and Russo era WCW learned(Well not Russo. That guy is a fucking ass) the hardway) will accomplish that on their own. A lot of WCW’s success in the beginning was caused by getting key free agents, and merging them with some remnants of JCP grounded storytelling. Initially Hogan, and his crew thought they could just copy WWF’s outlandish stuff with high budget TV, and him being on top. That worked for a bit, but the results were mixed. Once the nWo angle came to be they finally settled on something that held the attention of fans, married with 80’s, and 90’s star power. 

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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8 hours ago, Casey said:

TNT always posts the full match listings for the upcoming week. Here’s what’s scheduled for 11/6:

Shawn Spears (w/ Tully Blanchard) vs. Brandon Cutler

Private Party vs Dark Order vs TH2 (Angelico & Jack Evans)  

Trent? (w/ OC & Chuckie T) vs Pac

Shanna & Riho vs Emi Sakura & Jamie Hayter

Hikaru Shida vs Big Swoll

Hangman Page & Kenny Omega vs Sammy Guevara & Chris Jericho

Thanks! Where do they post it? I looked on their website and both twitter accounts (AEW and AEW on TNT).

Edited by JonnyLaw
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41 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

You need to build stars, and hire stars. Neither great matches, or outlandish storylines(Which is something TNA, and Russo era WCW learned(Well not Russo. That guy is a fucking ass) the hardway) will accomplish that on their own. A lot of WCW’s success in the beginning was caused by getting key free agents, and merging them with some remnants of JCP grounded storytelling. Initially Hogan, and his crew thought they could just copy WWF’s outlandish stuff with high budget TV, and him being on top. That worked for a bit, but the results were mixed. Once the nWo angle came to be they finally settled on something that held the attention of fans, married with 80’s, and 90’s star power. 

SO what you are saying is AEW needs to hire Hulk Hogan? 

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26 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

SO what you are saying is AEW needs to hire Hulk Hogan? 

...And for Tony to say “You can go to hell Hulk Hogan... Straight to hell... AGAIN!”.

Edit: But honestly wouldn’t it be a Cena you’d want to get your hands on? If his Hollywood career fails, that could be a possibility. It would need guarantees, and the right set-up for it to happen. Cena is too loyal though. He’s never had a scandal with Vince that would break his leash with the Chairman.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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59 minutes ago, JonnyLaw said:

Thanks! Where do they post it? I looked on their website and both twitter accounts (AEW and AEW on TNT).

TNT’s website, the AEW section. Usually the “News” section will have a post about the upcoming show, and it’ll have the announced card posted within.

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WWE has killed their stars' star-power so much that other than Cena showing up, there isn't a signing they could make that would get mainstream people tuned in. Hell, Jericho and Moxley were those signings. 

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Pretty much. It forces AEW to create their own stars or turn wrestlers they get from WWE into stars if they are going to achieve the next level of popularity. There's no shortcuts AEW can take like WCW could because of how WWE operates these days. Getting guys like The Revival and Rusev or whatever would be a nice boon to the quality of the show but won't make much of a difference at all ratings wise. Even somebody like Reigns wouldn't make much of a difference I imagine. Certainly more than the others but nothing game changing.

edit: Just to be clear, I don't think Reigns would ever leave. Perhaps Orton is a better example. There'd be a bit of a bump but probably nothing substantial.

Edited by Oyaji
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6 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

WWE has killed their stars' star-power so much that other than Cena showing up, there isn't a signing they could make that would get mainstream people tuned in. Hell, Jericho and Moxley were those signings. 

WCW got lucky at the time when they nabbed Razor, and Diesel. That’s like if Roman, and Seth went to AEW, then two years later AEW took their “Replacements”. Then you add their star power to AEW’s home grown stars, and it’s a very alluring combination.

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8 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

WCW got lucky at the time when they nabbed Razor, and Diesel. That’s like if Roman, and Seth went to AEW, then two years later AEW took their “Replacements”. Then you add their star power to AEW’s home grown stars, and it’s a very alluring combination.

Do Roman and Seth right now have the juice that Diesel and Razor did in 1996, even considering how poor the business was that WWE was doing? 

Genuine question, I don't know how to measure that.

I will say that WCW also was in a place AEW wasn't in that they had hot storylines going that were already gaining viewers/capturing the attention of their own (considerably larger) fanbase before Hall and Nash came in. Savage/Flair and the Sting/Luger thing were hot programs that were interrupted by Hall and Nash and the nWo. 

AEW doesn't have either of those advantages. They have a niche fanbase and they don't really have a hot feud outside of Cody and Jericho, which honestly as good as it is doesn't compare at all in terms of mainstream star power to Savage and Flair. 

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3 hours ago, Goodear said:

The core/niche audience isn't large enough to support a show on TNT so, yeah, they need to appeal to an audience who don't follow them already. Those people need a reason to invest beyond good matches and aside from the Cody-Jericho stuff, they aren't really getting it.  The reality seems to be that highest profit doesn't really correlate with best in ring action if you look at previous boom cycles (Hogan, nWo, Austin). They really need to develop their undercard characters and build feuds in my opinion. The issue is how are they going to get their crowds to boo anyone who doesn't offend their sensibilities to build heels and how can they develop characters and keep the pace of the show where it is.

AEW certainly needs to grow their audience, but looking backwards to how WCW did it or WWF did it is not the best strategy.  The best strategy is what they are doing - putting on great episodic television.  Further, despite the light criticisms over needing more promos/vignettes, they are building their talent very well, and giving everybody a chance to shine.  The oft discussed 'modern problems with babyface-heel dynamics being lost' is resisting what the business is and has become in the year 2019.  Heel-face is the most basic storytelling, and certainly not without it's merits when done well.  Certainly it still can work, but (seems to me) most people are more excited about seeing quality action and quality characters than pretending to be pissed off over some dastardly act.  Heel heat is not as important as it was in the kayfabe years.  At least in the overall picture.

They don't need any new old superstar talent.  They have quality booking and presentation; which is far more than any company (in the US of A) has had since the year 2000.  

It's not a huge surprise, but there's far too little patience with this product.  They're clearly doing extremely well for how early it is.  If these shows stay the course this will no doubt be a highly sustainable and profitable company.    

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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First,  as I said many times I think Dynamite has been a huge success and I'm loving nearly everything about it.   We went to the Boston show and it was one of the best times I've had attending a wrestling event.  

With that out of the way I think it's time to discuss where AEW goes from here.  The ratings have been way better than TNT had hoped and the attendance has been great.  

However,  the TV show started at 1.4 million viewers and last week was around 750,000.   Yes,  the World Series probably played a role in this but if it was WWE I would say losing nearly 50% of your audience in a short span is bad and it is bad...   

They need to level off soon or hopefully get back over a million.  It pains me to say it because I love the show but I'm not sure the general audience is loving it.  The general audience also has left WWE in droves so I am unsure of what wrestling fans really want. 

I think maybe wrestling fans have no idea what they want and they like to bitch and that's all they want is to be able to bitch. 

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6 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

However,  the TV show started at 1.4 million viewers and last week was around 750,000.   Yes,  the World Series probably played a role in this but if it was WWE I would say losing nearly 50% of your audience in a short span is bad and it is bad...   

They need to level off soon or hopefully get back over a million.  It pains me to say it because I love the show but I'm not sure the general audience is loving it.  The general audience also has left WWE in droves so I am unsure of what wrestling fans really want. 

I think maybe wrestling fans have no idea what they want and they like to bitch and that's all they want is to be able to bitch. 

The World Series and Game 7 at that is not an excuse.  It's a fact.  First to second week drop is niche debut 'what is this' audience to regular audience.  As you began, numbers are over expected and just fine.  There's no problem here.  It takes a long time to build an audience.  

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The issue isn't fans not knowing what they want. Really, the issue is partially that WWE is legit killing the business in the country, but the other issue is that AEW is never going to carve out its own niche if every match looks the same and all the workers work the same. 

People are going to HATE this argument that I'm about to make, but almost every match that hasn't been worked by Jericho or the Dark Order has been worked at the same high speed with the same high-risk spots and shit. I could also get that same thing by watching RAW, actually. Their champ over there works like Kenny Omega and the Bucks and Private Party and practically everyone else in AEW. Both shows are wrestling-heavy and both shows have lots of matches worked at the same pacing. 

AEW has a ton of work to do in a) changing up the variety of its work and b) re-conditioning its fans to enjoy different styles of work. 

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I can't even remember the last time a company produced 5 excellent weeks of television.  I'm not quite sure I understand the variety complaint?  I understand that a lot of current 2019 workers work a similar style.  But are you suggesting a few hardcore matches and a few mat based grapples?  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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33 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Do Roman and Seth right now have the juice that Diesel and Razor did in 1996, even considering how poor the business was that WWE was doing? 

Genuine question, I don't know how to measure that.

Probably around the same. It’s not like Diesel, or Razor were household names before they jumped ship. Maybe Seth would be above Razor because at least he had a main event run unlike Hall. But I would say today that both are like Nash in that they were chosen to lead the new generation, and “Failed” at it. 

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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1 minute ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I can't even remember the last time a company produced 5 excellent weeks of television.  I'm not quite sure I understand the variety complaint?  I understand that a lot of current 2019 workers work a similar style.  But are you suggesting a few hardcore matches and a few mat based grapples?  

I actually am. I think modern wrestling fans are open to different styles and different pacing in their matches, but companies have to make a clear move toward doing that. I refer to Mick Foley's argument about wrestling being like the circus in that there should be a thing for everyone to enjoy; paraphrasing him, maybe you'll like the lions, but if you don't like them, you'll like the acrobats, but if you don't like them, you'll like the fire-eaters. 

I'm not saying that this is a short-term ratings issue or anything; they've only been on TV a month. However, if we're talking sustainability or growth into the future, I think they need to address as many of the potential audience's stylistic preferences as they can, and in doing that, they need to make sure to educate their core fanbase that seems to encourage the go-go-go style that so many of their workers are working. 

The other thing they need to do is to catch fire with a couple of angles that get people outside of the wrestling bubble talking about them, but I think they can find their way there eventually. 

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Mid-90s WWF pre-boom was certainly a pile of steaming shit, but Razor Ramon and Diesel were pretty well established names.  I'd be surprised to find many ppl that know who Roman Reigns or Seth Rollins are.  I'm a lapsed fan, but I've never seen a Roman Reigns match in full.  I saw Tyler Black, thought he was pretty generic, and that ROH had maybe passed it's prime.  I've seen highlights of Seth, and that's it.  Further, I have no interest in either.  All personal opinion, but I don't think the remaining Shield is in the same ballpark.  Maybe I'm wrong.  

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10 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Mid-90s WWF pre-boom was certainly a pile of steaming shit, but Razor Ramon and Diesel were pretty well established names.  I'd be surprised to find many ppl that know who Roman Reigns or Seth Rollins are.  I'm a lapsed fan, but I've never seen a Roman Reigns match in full.  I saw Tyler Black, thought he was pretty generic, and that ROH had maybe passed it's prime.  I've seen highlights of Seth, and that's it.  Further, I have no interest in either.  All personal opinion, but I don't think the remaining Shield is in the same ballpark.  Maybe I'm wrong.  

That’s the key phrase. They are “established names” in their company. have no doubt in my mind that Roman, and Seth would legit create buzz like Hall, and Nash jumping shit. No offense to Nash, and Hall, but neither men were  the crossover stars that Macho, Hogan, Rock, and Austin were. They were B+, and C+ tier when it came to overall wrestling star power(Not talking about the WWE’s letter ranking from a couple of years ago). I would put Roman, and Seth in the same boat as stars in their profession, but nowhere else. They still created buzz amongst wrestling fans, plus you had long time hero, and crossover celeb Hogan turning heel. Which was super weird because he was still playing babyfaces in movies, but acting like a heel on press tours.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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If you took the Tim Thatcher vs Davey Boy Smith Jr match from MLW, and dropped that into an episode of Dynamite, the fans would probably eat it up. Or for that matter, the Darius Lockhart vs Sugar Dunkerton match I posted last week (it's really good. WoS style in a tiny American local Indie, with a crowd totally unfamiliar with the style).

Pretentious Smarks love holds and chain wrestling. And the ones that don't, feel they have to pretend to.

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I'm gonna check out that Darius Lockhart-Sugar Dunkerton match - never 'eard of 'em.  I dug that Thatcher-DBSJr. match, and I like that style, but I'm not so sure that's getting over on national television.  I may be wrong, and I would love to see Thatcher in an AEW ring.  Growing the audience is moving passed said 'pretentious smarks'.  Anybody that could be even remotely labelled a smark is sure to be aware of AEW.  

9 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

That’s the key phrase. They are “established names” in their company. have no doubt in my mind that Roman, and Seth would legit create buzz like Hall, and Nash jumping shit. No offense to Nash, and Hall, but neither men were neither the crossover stars that Macho, Hogan, Rock, and Austin were. They were B+, and C+ tier when it came to overall wrestling star power(Not talking about the WWE’s letter ranking from a couple of years ago). I would put Roman, and Seth in the same boat as stars in their profession, but nowhere else.

I just remember, from that time, everybody, no matter how well Nash drew as champion, thought of those two as legit and huge.  Hall may not have been champion but he was a huge favorite of most anybody I came across that watched wrestling in the mid 90s.  All the drunks at PPV showings never stopped calling them by their WWF names.  You may be right in the above, but I just don't see the Shield boys as anything close to that level.  That said, if they somehow in some world jumped to AEW and they booked them as well as they're booking their first bunch of shows I'm sure they'd bump the numbers.  No doubt about it.   

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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You really don’t think the AEW fans don’t know who Roman, and Seth are? They definitely knew who Moxley was when he jumped. In fact I would say AEW fans know the top stars of the WWE more so than WCW fans did about the WWF’s stars at that very time. Go back and watch Hall’s debut. You could hear a pin drop during that entire segment. Barely anybody knew who the guy in the Canadian Tux with the slick back hair was.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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