Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

[SEPT 2019] WRESTLING DISCUSSION


RIPPA

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

I think it's perceived aspiration. The Kardashians are seen living in mansions, wearing designer clothes, traveling the world in private jets. It seems so carefree. Then take wrestling, with sweaty people giving the appearance of beating up each other while an unruly audience screams for more violence. It speaks to why more women in the 12-34 and 18-49 demos watch reality TV.

It's the TV version of the rat vs the squirrel. Both are rodents. But one gets a pass for having an adorable fuzzy tail.

I don't give Tree Rats a pass.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm a bit late here, but in what world does the media NOT treat the Kardashians as trashy? It's pretty much the current definition of trashy guilty pleasure in mainstream entertainment.

It's 50/50 and that's because they've been around for so long now. People will demonize them for whatever (and you argue most of that is outside the media now), but you will also have media try to legitimize them by having two of the Kardashian sisters present at the Primetime Emmys and stories in like Forbes or w/e about one of the Jenner sisters being the youngest self made billionaire (as @caley just pointed out as I was writing this). Gossip sites may love or hate them depending on the day, but the tide is turning in terms of the media coverage. Plus, you have so many shows that have followed that try to one up them that it's the new normal.

7 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I agree with this but boxing/UFC don't have quite the same stigma.  They've both been dunked on many times but they are still able to maintain a certain level of respect in the mainstream media.  Maybe TV contracts are a part of that and because it's "real" but another thing is celebrities still show up to a big boxing event and treat it as the place to be on that evening.  

7 hours ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Re: Comparing wrestling to boxing/UFC, that's a fools errand and always will be. That real/fake divide isn't going anywhere in some people's minds. Even NASCAR is afforded more respect than wrestling simply on the basis of being real. That's a battle wrestling will never win. 

Boxing and MMA go how the coverage goes, but at the same time, they're helped by the fact no one outside those communities really care the skeletons in the closet of either. UFC has been embroiled in a class action lawsuit since 2014. We're on YEAR 5 of this and the trial hasn't even started yet. Nobody outside Dave Meltzer and the three guys that have covered it since the beginning (Jason Cruz, Robert Joyner, and Paul Gift) give a damn. The UFC also has been anti-union for the longest. Besides Leslie Smith being on Samantha Bee's show last year IIRC to discuss that, nobody in the mainstream has covered it. Boxing has its own laundry list of problems that most people can probably guess. Maxim Dadashev basically died on ESPN back in July. It was a story for a few weeks if that and that's only because another boxer died in the ring within a week or so of Dadashev dying. Then, it went back to business as usual like people just didn't watch a man get beat to death and we didn't watch him basically collapse after being unable to leave the ring area under his own power. The realness element helps and the big TV contracts (or streaming contracts as it goes with DAZN) help too, but you can also argue it's way too real because as both sports have continued success, the human cockfighting element continues to grow and get even uglier. But again, nobody outside boxing and MMA hardcores really give a damn. There were a number of celebs at Tyson Fury's fight at MGM Grand a couple weeks back. I saw Paul George and some other people at the Bellator show last night at the Forum. Magic Johnson and other celebs were at the Spence vs. Porter fight last night at Staples Center. Hell, Big E was there in Shawn Porter's dressing room. I saw the Houston Rockets were cross training MMA the other day with Harden and Westbrook doing a big photo op. The Rock is presenting the BMF belt when the UFC goes back to MSG on November 2. There aren't a bunch of MMA or boxing superstars right now, but you would think so based on the proximity to other stars in sports and entertainment.

 

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I should clarify: I don't mean the family is treated as trashy, but the show, whatever the fuck it's called.

They're much bigger than the show now so it's kinda irrelevant. That show can go off the air tomorrow, and they would still be pretty damn popular.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I'm always amused by the old school boxing writers or commentators who still love boxing with all its warts but are repulsed by mma. 

It's slowly dying down though especially with the creation of something like the Athletic. There is a MMA guy running the boxing section with guys who strictly cover boxing. It helps that you have someone like Lou DiBella who had that infamous ESPN segment with Joe Rogan back in 2007 working with the UFC and having some of his shows now on UFC Fight Pass. If DiBella can let bygones be bygones, the rest of these old fogies can do the same or just ignore it which is fine.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Thank you for saying something. I was getting worried. 

Again, based on Burgundy's premise though, if the Kardashians are trashy then the WWE is fucking Chernobyl. Ellen is going to have a Kim Kardashian or Kanye or whomever maybe partially for trainwreck TV, but the average stay at home parent is going to be far more interested in them and what they have to say than a Becky Lynch or Charlotte Flair. At the very least, they will be intrigued. When random wrestler #303 hits their screen, they will do laundry or wash the dishes. They may not hate wrestling and may even be a casual fan every now and then, but they're not going to give a shit about them shilling the next WWE show on the network. Whereas an Ellen or a Wendy Williams will give any of the Kardashians/Jenners or Kardashian/Jenner adjacent people a platform to do what they want and people will watch. So it can't be that trashy.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm just saying, I've seen their show be a punchline for trashy, worthless entertainment way the fuck more often than I have wrestling in the last decade or so.

That's because people actually know who the Kardashians are and don't know who anyone in the WWE is besides the obvious. People not caring is far more detrimental.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's because people actually know who the Kardashians are and don't know who anyone in the WWE is besides the obvious. People not caring is far more detrimental.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

It boils down to what you said earlier about it, the demographic problem.

The demographic for the Kardashians is a more desirable demographic than the ad agencies' ivory tower stereotype of wrestling fans (the unintelligent blue-collar redneck who thinks it's real because they're stupid, otherwise why'd they watch RASSLIN?), and even if WWE has changed the fans' image to "Pro wrestling is the unofficial pro sport of nerd culture"...well, the Kardashian image is still more desirable (and even the 2010s proof with shows proving  nerds are really, really good money-wise hasn't changed how desirable the culture is.) 

Ultimately, that's what it boils down to: Desirable demographics will admit they watch the Kardashians as a guilty pleasure. Desirable demographics will watch pro wrestling...but the hell they're going to ADMIT IT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

I don't think anyone has said Keep Up with the Kardashians is respected. But compared to wrestling, it's not that bad. Yeah, you can provide anecdotal evidence, but the more socially relevant you are the more you open yourself up to ridicule. Obama and Trump no matter who has the best approval rating are going be ridiculed more than your local city councilman. The big problem here is WWE manages to be toxic in an era where they try to be as accessible as possible whether it's allowing wrestlers to do media and making their shows more friendly to different demos. They should not be doing record lows in TV ratings EVERY YEAR (H2H w/ sports or not) and WWE network subscription numbers should not be going down. Live attendance should not be down (I'm not up to speed on that recently, but it was last time I heard so forgive me if I got that wrong). If they didn't have those TV contracts, they would be in a freefall or heading towards one eventually. The Kardashians may be an acquired taste, but they don't have that type of heat. Remember Tiger Blood Charlie Sheen back in 2011/2012? That wore down eventually. Right now, the media is trying be more Kardashian laden if anything. That isn't happening with pro wrestling even if you have a new Monday Night Wars "starting up". If the war is about who can stay above 1 million viewers between NXT and AEW, then wrestling is something everyone has moved past which is not good at all.

6 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

It boils down to what you said earlier about it, the demographic problem.

The demographic for the Kardashians is a more desirable demographic than the ad agencies' ivory tower stereotype of wrestling fans (the unintelligent blue-collar redneck who thinks it's real because they're stupid, otherwise why'd they watch RASSLIN?), and even if WWE has changed the fans' image to "Pro wrestling is the unofficial pro sport of nerd culture"...well, the Kardashian image is still more desirable (and even the 2010s proof with shows proving  nerds are really, really good money-wise hasn't changed how desirable the culture is.) 

Ultimately, that's what it boils down to: Desirable demographics will admit they watch the Kardashians as a guilty pleasure. Desirable demographics will watch pro wrestling...but the hell they're going to ADMIT IT.

I wouldn't even say it's a "rasslin" thing because the Real Housewives of _______/Basketball Wives __ is just as car crash TV if not more. I just figured out who Becky Lynch was three or so years ago when she was ringside for a Luke Sanders fight (she was bad luck because he lost the one or two times she was there). I didn't know she was Irish until I heard her speak LAST YEAR right around the time she got some buzz behind her. It's not because wrestling is stupid or anything like that. Unless you have a Ronda Rousey who is a magnet for media attention and potential sponsorship $, it's just a bunch of faceless nameless people from the WWE factory in a bubble that people on this forum and those likely to go to WWE shows give a shit about. That's a much larger issue than the image of Johnny Rebel in an UGA shirt with mustard stains on it talking about Braun Strowman and The Fiend. If anything, they don't know what WWE fans look like nowadays because they don't watch the shows. Hence, my point being that it's much easier to dunk on something if the alternative is something you don't follow AT ALL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Unless you have a Ronda Rousey who is a magnet for media attention and potential sponsorship $, it's just a bunch of faceless nameless people from the WWE factory in a bubble that people on this forum and those likely to go to WWE shows give a shit about. That's a much larger issue than the image of Johnny Rebel in an UGA shirt with mustard stains on it talking about Braun Strowman and The Fiend. 

Honestly, even if WWE is more of a factory...that shows a different issue with how WWE is presented...the Kardashians and reality TV aren't the right comparison for WWE. 

Yes, WWE is a factory churning out inoffensive, pleasant people who don't get you excited. They show up, are big. Maybe some of them cross over like John Cena or The Rock, a few can be lesser stars, and then they're forgotten about. 

How's that any different than Disney or Nickelodeon's star factories' right now? 

Same token, you have people who are basically loyal to their home company, only work in those, are super-famous to their fans and virtually unknown outside of the bubble...but Disney and Nickelodeon have managed to cross over and have people become genuine stars people would know about on average, and WWE do the same thing. 

If anything, WWE needs to be willing to let some wrestlers play against type like Disney/Nick stars will do in order to grow their image and become Rousey-type stars instead. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

I disagree.  The Kardashians are invited to elitist dinner parties, White House (not just because Trump either), award show red carpets,  the whole thing and nobody is viewing them as "haha the Kardashians are here let's poke some fun".  They are respected by media outlets, elites and it's gotten to the point where they are called upon to discuss real social issues which is funny to me and sad but that's the reality of it. 

Not even Vince McMahon himself is viewed in that regard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I disagree.  The Kardashians are invited to elitist dinner parties, White House (not just because Trump either), award show red carpets,  the whole thing and nobody is viewing them as "haha the Kardashians are here let's poke some fun".  They are respected by media outlets, elites and it's gotten to the point where they are called upon to discuss real social issues which is funny to me and sad but that's the reality of it. 

Not even Vince McMahon himself is viewed in that regard. 

Vince shouldn't be respected by media outlets or discussing real social issues. Nor should the Kardashians.

We're living in Idiocracy and the DVDVR is "Not Sure".

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Honestly, even if WWE is more of a factory...that shows a different issue with how WWE is presented...the Kardashians and reality TV aren't the right comparison for WWE. 

Yes, WWE is a factory churning out inoffensive, pleasant people who don't get you excited. They show up, are big. Maybe some of them cross over like John Cena or The Rock, a few can be lesser stars, and then they're forgotten about. 

How's that any different than Disney or Nickelodeon's star factories' right now? 

Same token, you have people who are basically loyal to their home company, only work in those, are super-famous to their fans and virtually unknown outside of the bubble...but Disney and Nickelodeon have managed to cross over and have people become genuine stars people would know about on average, and WWE do the same thing. 

If anything, WWE needs to be willing to let some wrestlers play against type like Disney/Nick stars will do in order to grow their image

The thing here is now you have a debate about crossing over or is it (pro wrestling) being used as a stepping stone. You can be a big star if you're w/ Disney and Nickelodeon. Then at some point, you just age out. With pro wrestling now, I think it's more like how many of the newer generation rappers talk about rap now. If John Cena goes to movies, he has gotten a job promotion. It's no longer crossing over IMO.  Speaking of Kanye, he has influenced so many rappers to believe that fashion is the ultimate end game. Someone like Tyler the Creator who had a number 1 album on billboard charts THIS YEAR doesn't want to be called just a rapper and speaks of people like Tarantino and Wes Anderson with reverence that he never would have for a Rakim or Big Daddy Kane. He sees that as art over rap his chosen profession.

As much flack as people give Cornette, there is credence to what he says (less butterface talk but on the actual topic of pro wrestling) about a Jordynne Grace who said something about it just being fake wrestling. If wrestlers don't take it seriously, why the fuck should anyone else (hardcore, casual, or anything in between) give a damn? I mean maybe it's nitpicking but the whole this is my stage name and also here is my shoot name you can find on Wikipedia on Twitter. It may seem small, but you're screaming this doesn't matter because it's as fake as All My Children.

38 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

and become Rousey-type stars instead. 

Rousey was a once in a lifetime occurrence though. She filled a gap in combat sports that no one was able to do before and not for the lack of trying (Mia St. John, Christy Martin, etc.). Bellator has signed a bunch of hot women. Some who could fight or some who can't. Some who have personalities and some who don't. They have more freedom than I would assume you're average WWE male or female wrestler has. They still haven't found another Rousey and that company is ran by someone who was the first to sign Rousey in Scott Coker. Ilima-Lei Macfarlane has some appeal, but she is probably on par with a Sasha Banks or someone like that. The problem is Bellator is such a distant second that is her ceiling. If she were in the UFC, it would probably be a much different story because UFC is a brand name. With WWE, that label is more of an albatross and WWE will never let anyone shed it if they're signed with them. It is what it is. You will remain inside that bubble until they never longer see fit to have you as part of it.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Vince shouldn't be respected by media outlets or discussing real social issues. Nor should the Kardashians.

I agree but what I'm saying is Vince/wrestling is treated as trashy/Jerry Springer fast food garbage while these same media outlets (and beyond all the way to the White House) view the Kardashians as legitimate high class dining. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I agree but what I'm saying is Vince/wrestling is treated as trashy/Jerry Springer fast food garbage while these same media outlets (and beyond all the way to the White House) view the Kardashians as legitimate high class dining. 

Because they were already rich before becoming famous on their own? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Because they were already rich before becoming famous on their own? 

I don't know how rich they were back in whatever it was 2004 or whatever. I don't think it was until the mid-2000s were they started to earn most of their wealth.  They were wealthy but I would have the say the McMahon family was wealthier than them during the 90s, McMahon was already a billionaire by what 2000. 

Edited by Niners Fan in CT
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...