Mayweather McGregor Megafight Megathread

[A_K]

Mayweather got the better of it in London. Holding up a watch worth as much as any payout Conor's had other than a couple of fights, and Conor's face just drop, was a sight to see. Mayweather runs the Money-McGregor schtick, but in a different stratosphere. The UFC Fighter/Dana White hoe/pimp analogy looked close to the bone for Conor & Dana too.

[supremebve]

9 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Black, White, Asian, Hawaiian/Pacific Islander, and Native Alaskan/American Indian by U.S. standards.  The U.S. census breaks Asian into a bunch of different subgroups. You can fill in the Some Other Race blank on the census or any form/application but usually it's people listing their ethnicity (or variants of Hispanic or Latino). What you and OSJ are talking about is still ethnicities and subgroups.

The problem with this entire discussion is that race is 100% a social construct...and you don't get to pick which group you are, it is chosen for you.  I know plenty of Hispanic people, and don't know a single one who would claim to be white.  Not only that, I don't know any white people who are going around claiming random Hispanics as white either (OK, maybe Charlie Sheen).  I get that technically some of those people are considered white, black, or a bunch of other races, but tt's not like racists are differentiating between race, ethnicity and culture.  They hate Mexicans as if they are a different race, so I'm 100% OK with calling it racism.  Ethnicity, culture, class, are all defined things that have a historical basis on facts, race is an arbitrary thing that is more, "You look black so therefore you are black."  Someone from Ethiopia and someone from Nigeria are both black, not because they are in any way the same, but because people decided these vastly different people were black.  Just because no one arbitrarily decided Hispanic was a race, doesn't mean that the discrimination and hate is any different than if they did.  So yes, I consider Mayweather cosplaying as a mariachi racist, just like I'd consider it racist if McGregor wore blackface, because they are essentially the exact same thing.  We are basically arguing how to define the mistreatment of people based on the color of their skin, culture, ethnicity, religion, or whatever based on terms that the people doing the mistreatment don't take into consideration.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

5 hours ago, supremebve said:

The problem with this entire discussion is that race is 100% a social construct...and you don't get to pick which group you are, it is chosen for you.  I know plenty of Hispanic people, and don't know a single one who would claim to be white.  Not only that, I don't know any white people who are going around claiming random Hispanics as white either (OK, maybe Charlie Sheen).  I get that technically some of those people are considered white, black, or a bunch of other races, but tt's not like racists are differentiating between race, ethnicity and culture.  They hate Mexicans as if they are a different race, so I'm 100% OK with calling it racism.  Ethnicity, culture, class, are all defined things that have a historical basis on facts, race is an arbitrary thing that is more, "You look black so therefore you are black."  Someone from Ethiopia and someone from Nigeria are both black, not because they are in any way the same, but because people decided these vastly different people were black.  Just because no one arbitrarily decided Hispanic was a race, doesn't mean that the discrimination and hate is any different than if they did.  So yes, I consider Mayweather cosplaying as a mariachi racist, just like I'd consider it racist if McGregor wore blackface, because they are essentially the exact same thing.  We are basically arguing how to define the mistreatment of people based on the color of their skin, culture, ethnicity, religion, or whatever based on terms that the people doing the mistreatment don't take into consideration.  

But we should put wearing a sombrero and wearing blackface as two different extremes. If I saw a bunch of teenagers (or folks turning 21) wearing sombreros at a party (which is pretty common here in the US), there are not going to be treated the same as someone wearing blackface. It's NOT the same thing.  A sombrero is a hat you buy at novelty store or certain rest stops. Blackface is a tool by white supremacists or honorary white supremacists to mock and demean the skin color of African-Americans/Africans/Blacks for centuries in various forms of society and in cinema as well through Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the civil rights movement, and various forms of propaganda and advertising across the globe for a few centuries at least. People, at least now, understand those two extremes. If you wear a sombrero at a campus party somewhere and post it on instagram, you won't be in trouble at all. If you wear blackface and post it on Instagram (and this has happened with several young white women over the last 24-28 months...go figure), you might get expelled from college. Now if you wear a sombrero and decide to use language or derogatory slurs either on a shirt or in a social media post, then yeah, you're going to be punished for that. People understand degrees of things if they don't understand the entire connotation and history of why that would be wrong. And if they don't understand, they will lose their job as a university president or dean.

 So if Martin Short, Chevy Chase, and Steve Martin wear sombreros in a film, we understand that is not the same as blackface...at all. Hopefully. Hopefully.

Quote

The problem with this entire discussion is that race is 100% a social construct

And you say this about literally everything involving race, gender, ethnicity, etc. which is why I want to bring an end to this discussion. My thing is when I discuss racism, I'm talking about the straight up and down version of racism/race without the gray area that people regularly associate with the term because they either don't understand what racism is what the races actually are (they're basically going on stuff they picked up over time that has both educated and misinformed them). We had a few incidents involving shootings this year and last year where white supremacists (and/or just generally angry white people) try to disown certain people classified as white Hispanics, white Latinos, etc. etc. And they basically used the whole argument of "well even though it's NOT on paper that so so is not a race, I personally feel blah blah..." you used above.  Anytime you go down that rabbit hole, it's going to be an endless debate because people are caught up in their feelings. I'm going by the actual definition of racism and not the "well let me tell you a story, my grandma grew up in the old country and..." version of race and racism that people have in their own heads. You will be discussing that shit all day long going by that. So no matter how anyone feels about it...Mexican is not a race. It's a nationality consisting of ethnic groups. You can be a white Mexican-American as 53 percent of Mexican-Americans are white according to the 2010 census. This is not my personal feeling or opinion. This is a fact. So the social construct thing should be left to open ended discussion groups where that is relevant. For purposes of this, we're not going to be spreading misinformation just because of what people personally feel and what related personal anecdotes they have. That's how OTHER people get misinformed. 

So yeah, we should end this thing because people have clearly exhausted their knowledge on certain subjects and/or just want to dismiss the notion of racism in relationship to fight altogether. Either way, I don't think the qualifications of people here are going to give us any good debate in regards to this fight.

 

[Ace]

On 7/13/2017 at 1:36 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

Also, I dunno how racist it could be since Mexican is not a race. Very insensitive to Mexicans and ridiculous? Yes. Racist? No, because most Mexicans identify as white.

 

As a life long Californian, I call bullshit.

[Elsalvajeloco]

56 minutes ago, Ace said:

As a life long Californian, I call bullshit.

Quote

As of 2010, 50.5 million or 16.3% of Americans identified as Hispanic or Latino.[1] Of those, 26.7 million, or 53%, also identified as white.[1

 

Quote

According to the 2010 US Census, 52.8% of Mexican Americans identified as being White[31]

Living in California doesn't mean shit. Personal feeling doesn't equate to actual facts.

[Ace]

Forgive me for being surrounded by legions of Mexicans who don't call themselves white 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Ace said:

Forgive me for being surrounded by legions of Mexicans who don't call themselves white 

You can be Mexican and white in the same time. What they do with their heritage is unrelated to that and you coming into an issue you clearly don't know much about.

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You can be Mexican and white in the same time. What they do with their heritage is unrelated to that and you coming into an issue you clearly don't know much about.

You can be Mexican and white at the same time, the issue is that it doesn't matter when people discriminate against you because you are Mexican.  Racists don't care if you are a white Mexican, they care that you are Mexican.  Therefore, it doesn't matter if Mexican is a race if the people who hate you for being Mexican don't care whether or not it is a race.  It is still racism.  If you took all the racists and explained to them that a lot of Mexicans are indeed white, and then they decided, "OK, I if that is the case, I'll love Mexicans from now on," I'd 100% agree with you.  The issue is that those people don't care about what is and isn't an arbitrary race.  Race doesn't exist, there is no scientific definition of race, it is completely and totally arbitrary.  There is no biological difference between races, it is only based on what people think you are.  If a racist think you are a different race, and they hate you because of it, it doesn't matter whether you are actually a different race.  The discrimination is the same.  

I remember the last census when I was living with my Ecuadorian best friend, and the census taker politely told him Hispanic wasn't a race and then asked him what was his race...and he just stared at her like she had 3 heads.  He's not white, no one would describe him as white, nor would they describe him as anything but Hispanic or Latino.  He isn't white, black, Asian, Pacific Islander, or American Indian, he's Hispanic and despite the fact that someone decided that isn't a race it doesn't stop him from not fitting in any of those completely meaningless boxes. It also doesn't stop some racist from discriminating against him because of the fact that he is Hispanic.  There is no such thing as race.  It legitimately doesn't exist.  The genetic differences between two black people can be far different than they are between a black person and a white person.  The only way to define race is based on what someone thinks in their mind, which changes between every single person.  You can't define what is and isn't a race because race is not based on anything but random (usually racist) opinions.  

[Kevin Wilson]

Anyway...

Now that the press tour is done (I think?), wonder if both will just go to their own ends of the world to train for a month or keep at it on social media. That was getting a bit tense at the end (fake or real, I dunno, but they couldn't have done too many more at their pace) so a cooling off period before jump starting again may be a good idea. I know they have to hype the fight but it was going a bit off the rails.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

*Long, dry response*

Yeah, we're done with this. I'm notifying the admins if this keeps on. I said it's done.

1 hour ago, Kevin Wilson said:

Anyway...

Now that the press tour is done (I think?), wonder if both will just go to their own ends of the world to train for a month or keep at it on social media. That was getting a bit tense at the end (fake or real, I dunno, but they couldn't have done too many more at their pace) so a cooling off period before jump starting again may be a good idea. I know they have to hype the fight but it was going a bit off the rails.

Both are training in Vegas so I mean I am not ruling out some weird fracas at like a Vegas nightclub or something. All they need to do is bark on social media. The fight ain't that far off considering most "big" fights in boxing do the tour 8-9 weeks out because of training and other commitments. 

But what I think people are forgetting is that the last push is fight week and that's when a good amount of PPVs are sold if any boxing or MMA PPV is going to do any type of business. All the stuff related to MayPac was pretty nondescript. All Conor and Floyd need to do is a halfway decent job at the final presser, and it will get people hyped.

FWIW I just saw on the Guerrero-Figueroa PBC show that Fox is going to show the prelims. So this PPV has the promotional and marketing power of both Viacom AND Fox.

[Elsalvajeloco]

On the Berchelt-Miura HBO Boxing After Dark broadcast, during the Smith Jr-Barrera fight, Jim Lampley seemed like he wanted to go in on Mayweather-McGregor but he pulled himself back. Kellerman went for the alley oop and Lampley decided to just gently lay it off the glass instead. It was awkward as hell for a minute.

[Lawful Metal]

Just rewatched the two Diaz matches. Conor gasses badly in the 2nd in both and more or less starts blocking punches with his face. 

Terrible gift decision in the 2nd one -- I didn't watch it at the time so I don't know how controversial it was. Diaz dominated the 2nd 3rd and 5th -- Diaz should've won by TKO in the 3rd.

no idea how Conor is going to go 12 rounds with his gas tank. 

Best possible outcome is Mayweather dominating for a long time before Conor knocks him out with a head kick.

[Niners Fan in CT]

There's so much about race and groupings that will never make sense to me and I just don't like throwing people in a certain column,  this nation is so mixed it's not easy to identify and many dont care to.  I have a Dominican born friend who considers herself black but she's caramel with black hair,  curly but can be straightened very easily. She has ties to Africa sure and it's cool she identifies but I don't think some would accept that.  I have a couple Mexican friends who would never consider themselves white or black,  they're simply "Mexican".  I have a couple Puerto Rican friends who don't consider themselves a part of any racial groups. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Lawful Metal said:

no idea how Conor is going to go 12 rounds with his gas tank. 

Ideally, not being over 155 pounds helps. Fighting past lightweight (super welterweight in boxing) is the dumbest thing he can do because his frame isn't designed for that. Moreover, doing it in a short period of time is also stupid. He was a big 145er and 155er in Cage Warriors and looked gaunt at the end of his run at 145 but that doesn't mean he should have been fighting at 170.

Floyd, who never does the day of weigh-ins, probably won't rehydrate anywhere over 165 pounds. He never gets out of shape, even when he takes a long hiatus from the sport. Conor always has sort of a bloated pro wrestler look at the beginning of his camps, and I don't think that's a good thing at all. He's trying to show how muscular he is all these IG and Twitter posts in training, but how much of that functional? I don't expect his output to be any better in boxing match relative to what he does in MMA (simply because he has other elements to open up his punching) so the only thing a little extra muscle can do is make it lower. That goes for even if you plan on clinching and holding all night and use your weight.

34 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

There's so much about race and groupings that will never make sense to me and I just don't like throwing people in a certain column,  this nation is so mixed it's not easy to identify and many dont care to.  I have a Dominican born friend who considers herself black but she's caramel with black hair,  curly but can be straightened very easily. She has ties to Africa sure and it's cool she identifies but I don't think some would accept that.  I have a couple Mexican friends who would never consider themselves white or black,  they're simply "Mexican".  I have a couple Puerto Rican friends who don't consider themselves a part of any racial groups. 

The private messages option should be up at the right hand corner of your page next to the notifications. Use that please and send it to whomever that it is meant for.

[Curt McGirt]

I take this time to say that no matter what our differences are in regards to ideology as regards to ethnicity, racial identity, etc. all should be set aside. 

We should all just agree that both of these smug motherfuckers deserve to be knocked out. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

28 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I take this time to say that no matter what our differences are in regards to ideology as regards to ethnicity, racial identity, etc. all should be set aside. 

We should all just agree that both of these smug motherfuckers deserve to be knocked out. 

I met a guy from Stockton (an aside: Stockton must be awful for you to move to Northwest Arkansas) yesterday, and he said he hates both guys since he's a Diaz brothers fan obviously. However, he's picking Conor of course. So 25% of the PPV buys may be from white folks who know Conor has no chance and don't like him but hate Floyd more. So The Great White Hype thing is working better than I thought. 

[Curt McGirt]

Me and a coworker got in a long boxing vs. MMA conversation on Friday and he said Diaz vs. Mayweather would be a better fight, FWIW, which is a funny coincidence and why I posted that in the first place. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

20 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Me and a coworker got in a long boxing vs. MMA conversation on Friday and he said Diaz vs. Mayweather would be a better fight, FWIW, which is a funny coincidence and why I posted that in the first place. 

If Conor was able to knock Nate down several times, Floyd might land enough straight rights to make Nate hit an asai moonsault out of the ring.

[Curt McGirt]

You basically came to the same conclusion he did with Mayweather/McGregor. His argument is boxing is chess and MMA is checkers (which I don't agree with but has its points) and someone with the discipline within the structure/rules of boxing after so many fights is always going to win. Meanwhile, being a wrestling fan, I told him it's a work and someone is just gonna take a fall so they can make their way to the pay windah haha

[AxB]

So when you look at all those Mexicans who identify as white, how many would have identified as Latino if that had been an option when they were asked? Probably most of them, right?

[Kevin Wilson]

4 hours ago, AxB said:

So when you look at all those Mexicans who identify as white, how many would have identified as Latino if that had been an option when they were asked? Probably most of them, right?

As the boss stated above, this isn't the thread for these types of questions, you can try making a new thread in Land of Confusion but I assume Phil would close it within three posts since its not generally the type of topic they allow here. We have five more weeks to go to keep this thread focused, we can do this!

(I reserve the right to delete any posts after this one that aren't at least loosely about the boxing match)

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 hours ago, AxB said:

So when you look at all those Mexicans who identify as white, how many would have identified as Latino if that had been an option when they were asked? Probably most of them, right?

This is why I didn't want to continue...you can be both because Latino is not a race. You don't have to choose between one of the other. It's called being white of hispanic origin. It would be like the example you used earlier but it's not like you have people from Ireland moving to the US at the frequency of the early 20th century. So it's not like people feel that that they have to choose between being Irish and white. 

The confusion comes in at:

1) Filling out the census for example...people who are probably the children of folks who just emigrated feel like they have to choose between their ethnicity and whatever. However, most people whether it's incorrect or not are going solely off skin color when they see you anyway. Sure, you have the "exotic" or biracial people who can fit into a million categories based on looks but people are going to make assumptions anyway. 

2) Since people don't have the straight up Hispanic/Latino for race, people are going to fall back on the deep seeded light skin/dark skin thing. It's apparent in every Hispanic/Latino culture from Mexicans, Cubans, Dominicans, Brazilians (see: Anderson Silva vs. Demian Maia for example) to everything up under to the sun including countries in Africa where Portuguese and/or Spanish are official languages. So it's not about really some Latino race. Yeah, you have proud Afro-Latinos and Latinas in the US but on the other side of that spectrum, there are Latinos who will be give themselves a Colombian necktie before they identify as black. Either they don't like black people or they feel it's too much a burden to carry if they remotely have a darker shade of skin than the lightest people in their ethnicity/subgroup/nationality/whatever. In addition, you have that Zoe Saldana category with dark skinned Latinos of "most people believe I am black and acknowledge that I am but please don't call me that". People are going to find clever ways to detach and divorce themselves from blackness. Tiger Woods, Amber Rose, Zoe Saldana, Bow Wow, Raven Symone, etc. No matter what they do, going back to number 1, they will be treated as black based on skin color and who their parents/grandparents were. So the safe option in our culture and for many new arrivals, as sad as it is, is to pick being white if you can and feel like it is advantageous to do so. However, if you ever watch any non History Channel documentary or any one not made by a closeted white supremacist related to this, most of the original people of these cultures were as dark as fucking midnight. However, not very many people over here want to be associated with that because of how they were indoctrinated. But hey, choose your own identity.

The point remains is despite the ambiguity of what race and ethnicity is, they are still defined differently and not interchangeable.  Just because you got away with that in your 7th grade Social Studies class doesn't mean it is applicable here.

 

[Spritenaut 32]

There's just no saving this thread, is there?

 

[AxB]

I'm English. American federal rules on things don't apply everywhere. Are Jewish people considered Asian in America? Because Israel is in Asia.

[RIPPA]