[MM16] R2A: HECHICERO vs. BROCK LESNAR

[The Man Known as Dan]

Keep in mind he did have that stinker with Rollins. Which was almost more angle then match really, but fuuuuuck I hated that match so much.

[Brian Fowler]

I didn't mind it. Thought it worked pretty well. Probably did more to sell the chickenshit aspect of Rollins than any other match.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I didn't care for the match with Rollins because we got pretty much zero hope offense. Should there have been hope? Opinions may vary, I thought it would have added a little bit more drama and I don't think it would have been bad for Rollins to catch Brock by surprise a few times. Sure, Brock killed Cena but he had Cena scouted. Going against Cena is like playing Alabama. You know what they are going to do, but can you stop it?  Yes, Brock could stop it.   Going against Rollins should have been more like playing Boise St. They are going to throw a few tricks at you that you have not seen. 

 

The match with Rollins bored me to tears. BUT again, I still think Brock had a strong year.

[Brian Fowler]

Rollins was the heel though, he doesn't need a hope spot.

[The Man Known as Dan]

So instead you have a heel champion who just got his ass kicked to death. I have no problem having a heel be a chickenshit, but I just want some fucking consistency. The month prior Rollins worked even with Ambrose for 30 minutes. If Lesnar can destroy Seth in 5, then Ambrose is fucking pathetic, as is anyone who works even with Ambrose.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Rollins was the heel though, he doesn't need a hope spot.

 

But he was a new guy they were pushing and I felt it would have done wonders for him to give Brock a slight scare or two and make Rollins look a little better than Cena did. Brock still comes out of it looking like an unbeatable monster but people can at least say "hey, that Seth Rollins though.." 

[Craig H]

Count me in for liking the Kofi match for what it was as well. I'll also come back to this a lot, but Brock did something no one thought was possible in that WM match against Roman. More than that, he let Roman stiff the hell out of him to make everything Roman did look legit. Fucking HHH can't even punch the guy correctly. At a certain point, what Brock did last year isn't going to be enough, but it gets him through this round.

[The Man Known as Dan]

Wait, was there doubt Roman vs. Lesnar would be good? Was that really a "Did something nobody thought was possible" situation? Cause Reigns was coming off the awesome Bryan match. 

[Craig H]

Huh? So many people had such low expectations for that show and that match and then remarked about how surprised and blown away they were at how good the match turned out. 

[JCM]

The first match posted has both guys doing worse kicks than Brie Bella.

[The Man Known as Dan]

Nobody that was paying attention was expecting that match to be shitty. It was better then expected, yes, but anyone who was expecting that match to be utter shit was just being overly dramatic.

[Matt D]

You know who just had a really good house show match with Rusev?

 

Dean god damn Ambrose. 

 

If Dean Ambrose can have a good house show match with Rusev, why can't Brock? He literally could not have one, because of the way he works.

 

Here's what I wrote recently elsewhere, for the GWE poll:

 

While his matches are very special in the moment, I think he's harmful to everyone and everything around him over any other term (Short, medium, long). This is mainly for two reasons. 

 

Reason #1: He gets to use offense like no one else in the company, thus escalating the stakes, while at the same time, not having that offense actually do more damage. It's not about logic for the sake of logic. It's about internal consistency from match to match and show to show, especially for a part-timer. His German Suplex is presented as both more and less devastating than almost everything in the company does. It's horrific, but guys can still get up after twenty of them, or whatever. That's part of Brock's deal, a lot of immediate-term good but potential long term damage. I also think that his act does have diminishing returns. It wouldn't work if we saw him every week. That's ok, even if it gives him an edge over the rest of the roster. Attractions are attractions. I do think the cracks are starting to show as it becomes more and more self-referential with the suplex city thing though. 

 

Reason #2: He in general is presented as superior to the roster, a bigger deal, more invulnerable, more important, an attraction. The problem is, he's also presented as more legitimate. I liken him to early 90s Undertaker. Taker could take more damage, do more damage. His choke was as deadly as anything in the company in fall 91, but at the same time he was presented as less than real. He was fantasy. He was less legitimate than the rest of the roster. A guy like Bret Hart or Ric Flair could look differently competent in comparison, because they were skilled men and not a monster. Brock on the other hand, due to his wrestling and especially MMA background, is presented as MORE real, not less. Therefore, he makes the rest of the roster look less legitimate. 

 

Brock feels special every time he's out there, but in part, that's because he's provided the tools and the presentation to make everyone else look less special. If he was better, could he find a way to elevate everyone around him with his specialness? Maybe. Right now he's the world's most potent weapon poorly utilized. I think the most remarkable thing was how over Reigns was at the end of Mania last year, because that was the weapon aimed and used for a purpose. All of that capital Brock had built up in the previous year was being used to make Reigns, and then they didn't go with it.

 

Now then, only part of that actually works against him for the sake of this process. He's not on my ballot, not even in consideration, really. He's a great spectacle. He's got a lot of tools. I think he might have been on my list if he never left. I've been lucky enough to see that spectacle live at least twice, once vs Taker at MSG for a cage match, once in Philly for the Rollins/Cena triple threat. I wouldn't fault someone for having him. 

[Ramsey]

I won't vote here as (mentioned elsewhere) my lucha knowledge is laughable. However, Brock needs to be addressed. I don't love to watch Lesnar because of the wrestler he is. I love to watch him for what he represents. That pure throw back-meets-legit danger is something very unique in the game right now. He's so overwhelmingly lethal that we watch to see how OTHER wrestlers will deal with what is essentially the pro-wrestling version of a hurricane. We KNOW what Brock is going to do. There's usually no question. He's almost more THE SETTING than he is THE CHARACTER if that makes any sense.

[Matt D]

That's not at all how I describe Stan Hansen.

Not at all.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Matt you're going to have to come with more than a copy/paste job. Come on.

[Craig H]

I like Matt D using a complete and total hypothetical with nothing to support it as an argument against Lesnar, not to mention busting out a "literally." March Madness baby!

 

As for what El Dragon was saying, it doesn't need to be an either or type of deal. Just because people weren't saying the match was going to be shitty doesn't mean that people's low expectations weren't any less legitimate. People didn't expect much, figured the match would be boring with a foregone conclusions, or thought it would be a bad main event. In the end, people were blown away and calling it great. I feel like you're moving the goalposts.

[EVA]

I recall there being some concern about Brock/Roman, because

1) while the Bryan match at Fastlane was great, the perception was that it was a Bryan carryjob (not entirely unwarranted, I don't think, as it was basically Bryan's plug-n-play 2006 ROH world title match...err, but without being 2 out of 3 falls and going to a draw).

2) it was the first time Brock had been matched up against a "lesser" talent since returning and nobody knew if he had it in him to carry Roman.

Turned out he was. Although it was less about "carrying" him, and more "letting Roman punch him in the face for real."

[RIPPA]

Well I also recall plenty of times when people were stupid on here

[The Man Known as Dan]

As for what El Dragon was saying, it doesn't need to be an either or type of deal. Just because people weren't saying the match was going to be shitty doesn't mean that people's low expectations weren't any less legitimate. People didn't expect much, figured the match would be boring with a foregone conclusions, or thought it would be a bad main event. In the end, people were blown away and calling it great. I feel like you're moving the goalposts.

 

What goal posts? The only "goal post" that was set was you saying Brock "Pulled the Impossible" by having a great match with someone who had a fantastic match at the previous Pay Per View. Reigns probably had the best in ring year in the company, even if I'm not crazy about him.

[The Man Known as Dan]

I recall there being some concern about Brock/Roman, because

1) while the Bryan match at Fastlane was great, the perception was that it was a Bryan carryjob (not entirely unwarranted, I don't think, as it was basically Bryan's plug-n-play 2006 ROH world title match...err, but without being 2 out of 3 falls and going to a draw).

2) it was the first time Brock had been matched up against a "lesser" talent since returning and nobody knew if he had it in him to carry Roman.

Turned out he was. Although it was less about "carrying" him, and more "letting Roman punch him in the face for real."

 

Both No.1 and No.2 were opinions that would make me roll my eyes. The Reigns/Bryan match was certainly not a carry job, though it was very much a Bryan style 2006 match, but the idea that anyone could plug and play into that roll to me insane. And for No.2, Reigns, at min, is a hell of a lot better then Triple H, who he at least had some decent stuff with.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I gotta say the Triple H v. Bryan match at Mania was better than Bryan/Reigns at Fast Lane.

[The Man Known as Dan]

Name a Triple H match in the last 5 years that was even in the ballpark as Triple H/Bryan though. That had a year of backstory, Reigns/Bryan was thrown together as a panic "Uh, shit, hopefully this calms the crowd down?" decision.

[goc]

I gotta say the Triple H v. Bryan match at Mania was better than Bryan/Reigns at Fast Lane.

And Reigns/Lesnar is WAY better than any of the 3 HHH/Lesnar matches. Probably better than all 3 of them put together.

[EVA]

Shit, did they wrestle THREE times? Fuck.

[odessasteps]