goodhelmet Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Last night's post-game celebration was an all-timer. You had: -Duncan and Robinson bear hugging -Duncan and his kids. Especially his daughter's "I think he did awesome and tried his best." -Pop sitting on the bench in disbelief while the confetti rained down -All the different nations' flags on the podium -All the Spurs flipping out when Kawhi was named MVP. And probably more I'm forgetting. Parker hugging Avery Johnson. On the local news, Avery was doing an interview and he mentioned how the entire Spurs ethos began with David Robinson (or Fhhive-oh) as Avery called him so Robinson strolls over and does an interview with Avery talking about the Spurs organization throughout the years. Special stuff. Also, David Robinson was an all-time great. He never had the help that Tim did ever when he was at his peak and still put up amazing numbers and win-loss records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Duncan's all-time place is interesting. Definitely one of the best interior defenders to ever live. His peak wasn't as good as a lot of guys, but it started so young, and lasted until he was old. And talk about being useful after his prime. What do you mean by peak? When you say it wasn't as good as some guys, is it the three Finals MVPs in 7 years and 2 league MVPs in 3 years? Not many have that peak. Also, consider that the Spurs have some of the most unselfish people ever to play in the organization. David Robinson restructured his contract so they could keep Tim and deferred top billing when he was still in near top shape. Tim di the same for Tony Parker when Tony became a superstar. Both Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have taken less on their contracts so they could continue being championship contenders when most if not all the other teams would have broken the bank and then blown the entire thing up. When Kawhi Leonard becomes the highest paid guy on the Spurs, Tony Parker will take less money to keep him on the team. It's what the Spurs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mco543 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 The amount of posts online and on Twitter I'm seeing asking if Duncan is now the definitive all-time greatest 4 is pretty stunning. I always thought it was consensus that he was after his last title, if not before then. He's obviously top 10 all-time but he's at the bottom half of that 10, maybe 9th? I'd really have to think about how I'd rank the bottom half of my top 10, it's very tight and very tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I dunno. I'm only 28 and I feel like I've watched his entire NBA career and his last two seasons in college. It's only 16 years. Simmons said one of the best things last night. Duncan definitely is not the greatest player, but he has a case for the greatest career ever along with Kareem. I'd take Duncan over Kareem too. Of course you would, you're a Celtic fan. Nicely done. I think Kareem ranks higher as a player, but in terms of career, I'd give the edge to Duncan since Duncan never played with someone the caliber of Magic for 10 years. Not to discount Parker at all, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Last night's post-game celebration was an all-timer. You had: -Duncan and Robinson bear hugging -Duncan and his kids. Especially his daughter's "I think he did awesome and tried his best." -Pop sitting on the bench in disbelief while the confetti rained down -All the different nations' flags on the podium -All the Spurs flipping out when Kawhi was named MVP. And probably more I'm forgetting. Parker hugging Avery Johnson. On the local news, Avery was doing an interview and he mentioned how the entire Spurs ethos began with David Robinson (or Fhhive-oh) as Avery called him so Robinson strolls over and does an interview with Avery talking about the Spurs organization throughout the years. Special stuff. Also, David Robinson was an all-time great. He never had the help that Tim did ever when he was at his peak and still put up amazing numbers and win-loss records. Yeah, I was shocked to see Robinson is second all time in win-shares per 48 minutes at .2502 just behind Jordan (with .2505). I'd go Duncan over Kobe for best player of the late '90s and the noughties as well. Kobe is incredibly successful and more talented but all of those terrible shots, man. So inefficient. Duncan also crushes him in the geek stats too (largely as a result of Kobe's chucking). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I dunno. I'm only 28 and I feel like I've watched his entire NBA career and his last two seasons in college. It's only 16 years. Simmons said one of the best things last night. Duncan definitely is not the greatest player, but he has a case for the greatest career ever along with Kareem. I'd take Duncan over Kareem too. Of course you would, you're a Celtic fan. Nicely done. I think Kareem ranks higher as a player, but in terms of career, I'd give the edge to Duncan since Duncan never played with someone the caliber of Magic for 10 years. Not to discount Parker at all, but still. Kareem has three NCAA championships on his mantle, along with being the all-time scoring leader and owning a shot distinctly associated with him. He also was very good going into old age. Duncan is great. IMO, Kareem was better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Duncan's all-time place is interesting. Definitely one of the best interior defenders to ever live. His peak wasn't as good as a lot of guys, but it started so young, and lasted until he was old. And talk about being useful after his prime. What do you mean by peak? When you say it wasn't as good as some guys, is it the three Finals MVPs in 7 years and 2 league MVPs in 3 years? Not many have that peak. Also, consider that the Spurs have some of the most unselfish people ever to play in the organization. David Robinson restructured his contract so they could keep Tim and deferred top billing when he was still in near top shape. Tim di the same for Tony Parker when Tony became a superstar. Both Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have taken less on their contracts so they could continue being championship contenders when most if not all the other teams would have broken the bank and then blown the entire thing up. When Kawhi Leonard becomes the highest paid guy on the Spurs, Tony Parker will take less money to keep him on the team. It's what the Spurs do. What I mean is that his peak career numbers are well behind a lot of guys. To use the guy who is, imo, the most obvious comparison, Shaq. Duncan's career high for ppg: 25.5 in 2001-02. Shaq had 10 different seasons above that. Duncan's career high for rpg: 12.9 in 02-03. Shaq had 3 different seasons above that. Duncan's career high in bpg: 2.9 also in 02-03 Shaq had 2 seasons above that, and 2 more equal to it. Duncan's career high in fg%: 54.9 in his rookie year Shaq's career low was 55.7. My point being, if you could have Shaq or Tim at their absolute PEAK for one season, only an idiot would take Duncan. But if you could have either of them for their entire career, only an idiot would take Shaq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 From 1999-2002, Shaq may have been the scariest man ever to play in the NBA. Dude was a MFing mountain (no GoT). Still can't get over him being so bad from the stripe, through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Shaq's the guy who was Duncan's rival though. I mean, sure, Duncan has outlasted him to have it be Kobe and now Lebron, because holy shit what a career... Also, comparing rebounding and fg% between a center (enough of this "best 4 ever bullshit. Duncan's a center. They ran a two center line-up with The Admiral, and Duncan has been the center ever since Robinson retired more than a decade ago) and a perimeter player is really useless. So, Shaq's the guy to choose. And I want to make this clear: I have no clue, given all the information, who I would rank higher between Shaq and Timmy. Shaq at his best was clearly better, but does that cancel out all the time missed, all the games of being out of shape, the laziness? Duncan has aged so much better, but does that cancel out Shaq's vastly superior peak numbers? You tell me, because I have no clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 For the longest time Shaq was a huge underachiever. How many times was his team swept out of the playoffs? He ended up with four rings but Kobe was as close to a 1A as you are going to get and Wade was clearly the better player in '06. I don't think rings are the end all of an argument but man.. I feel like even with the three peat under his belt he could have done more. He was a dominant force the likes of which we may never see again.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 For the longest time Shaq was a huge underachiever. How many times was his team swept out of the playoffs? He ended up with four rings but Kobe was as close to a 1A as you are going to get and Wade was clearly the better player in '06. I don't think rings are the end all of an argument but man.. I feel like even with the three peat under his belt he could have done more. He was a dominant force the likes of which we may never see again.. That's the scary thing. He's a guy that has a legit case for being a top 10 player of all-time, but he unquestionably underachieved. That shouldn't be possible, but, there he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Point taken Burgundy. The great news is that it seems we get one more season with Pop and Duncan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Magnificent 7 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Last night's post-game celebration was an all-timer. You had: -Duncan and Robinson bear hugging -Duncan and his kids. Especially his daughter's "I think he did awesome and tried his best." -Pop sitting on the bench in disbelief while the confetti rained down -All the different nations' flags on the podium -All the Spurs flipping out when Kawhi was named MVP. And probably more I'm forgetting. Parker hugging Avery Johnson. On the local news, Avery was doing an interview and he mentioned how the entire Spurs ethos began with David Robinson (or Fhhive-oh) as Avery called him so Robinson strolls over and does an interview with Avery talking about the Spurs organization throughout the years. Special stuff. Also, David Robinson was an all-time great. He never had the help that Tim did ever when he was at his peak and still put up amazing numbers and win-loss records. Don't have enough likes for you. Anyone who thinks Robinson wasn't great is a damn fool and knows nothing about basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Point taken Burgundy. The great news is that it seems we get one more season with Pop and Duncan. It's a matter of personal preference. There's really no wrong answer when dealing with guys of this caliber. I've always had a soft spot for Kareem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 For the longest time Shaq was a huge underachiever. How many times was his team swept out of the playoffs? He ended up with four rings but Kobe was as close to a 1A as you are going to get and Wade was clearly the better player in '06. I don't think rings are the end all of an argument but man.. I feel like even with the three peat under his belt he could have done more. He was a dominant force the likes of which we may never see again.. By the same token, the Lakers had the Spurs number for a long time and Duncan has had his share of failures in the playoffs. I don't think Duncan was ever held to the same standards or expectations as Shaq, Kobe or Lebron simply because the media has never been as interested in the Spurs as they are the Lakers or Lebron. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It's the lack of flash in both his game and his personality, I think. Plus a bit of location. Even as the Spurs have moved from the "pound it in the paint, post-up, everything flows through Robinson/Duncan" to this incredible "whip the ball around, pick and roll, sacrifice the good for the great" thing of beauty, Duncan's game isn't something that shows up on Sportscenter much. You don't always notice him, even when he's absolutely dissecting your favorite team for a ho-hum 22 and 12 with 3 blocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 People downgrade The Admiral because Hakeem made him his bitch...purely because he could, but that's like saying Malone isn't great because Jordan made him his bitch. And when you're scratching your heads at these, I've legitimately heard both of these points this month along on some random ESPN radio show while at work in that Robinson wasn't great because Hakeem humbled him and the same for Malone-Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAct Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 By that logic, no one is great because Jordan humbled everyone. We're getting to the point where the dipshit Skip Bayless's of the world are trying to downgrade every great that ever played who isn't MJ, Bird or Magic. So next are we going to say that Ewing, Stockton and Barkley were no good? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 People have been saying Stockton was overrated for years. It's garbage, but that mindset started around 2000 I believe. But you're 100% right and it's more the mindset that ESPN is hiring more and more people like Skip Bayless who really just say shit to say shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 For the longest time Shaq was a huge underachiever. How many times was his team swept out of the playoffs? He ended up with four rings but Kobe was as close to a 1A as you are going to get and Wade was clearly the better player in '06. I don't think rings are the end all of an argument but man.. I feel like even with the three peat under his belt he could have done more. He was a dominant force the likes of which we may never see again.. By the same token, the Lakers had the Spurs number for a long time and Duncan has had his share of failures in the playoffs. I don't think Duncan was ever held to the same standards or expectations as Shaq, Kobe or Lebron simply because the media has never been as interested in the Spurs as they are the Lakers or Lebron. This isn't quite accurate. The Spurs-Lakers rivalry was pretty surreal to watch. In 1999, the Lakers swept the Rambis-Kobe-Shaq Lakers and shut down the Forum. In 2000, Duncan was injured in the playoffs and the Spurs were out in the first round. I don't think they were going to beat the Lakers that year but they didn't meet in the playoffs. The Spurs also beat them 3-1 in the regular season. In 2001, the Spurs were on a roll. Then the Lakers and Spurs met in the Conference Finals and the Lakers embarrassed the Spurs and Pop realized it was time to retool if he was going to compete and changed the identity of the team. The Lakers shut down the Alamodome (this might have happened in 2002). In 2002, out goes Elliott and Avery... in comes Parker and Steve Smith and Stephen Jackson. The Lakers beat the Spurs in 5 in the playoffs but the games are competitive, 2003, Manu comes in, the Spurs are a nice mix of veterans and young guys and they beat the shit out of the Lakers. I smile with glee as the Spurs leave Derek Fisher and Kobe Bryant sit crying on the bench like little bitches. It didn't quite go down that way but I like to think it did. Spurs Championship. 2004... Lakers realize they need to compete with the Spurs so they get two freaking Hall of Famers added to their roster. The Admiral retires and we replace him with... Robert Horry who happened to still be on the Lakers payroll in that series. Stephen Jackson makes a bad decision financially and career-wise and we replace him with Hedo Turkoglu!!! We actually replaced him with Ron Mercer but I always think of Hedo as the bust that year. We try to lure Jason Kidd from the Nets but he stays in Jersey. Playoff time... .4. The darkest moment in Spurs history. I almost dropped my infant daughter in shock. Lakers beat the Spurs but no championship. 2005... Lakers implode. No Phil. No Shaq. No playoffs. Spurs burn through the playoffs and beat the team that beat the Lake the year before for the championship. Robert Horry is no longer on the Lakers payroll and becomes Big Shot Bob again in Game 5 of the finals. The Lakers came out on top 3-2 in the head to head and championship count but the huge difference between the Spurs and Lakers is their response to adversity. When the Spurs encountered defeat, like in 2001/2002, 2004, 2006 and 2013, most teams (like the Lakers) would blow the whole thing up and try to lure big time free agents to the team as a response. The Spurs stayed the course, made minor tweaks and believed in their core group. Hell, we beat the Lakers last year with Dwight Howard (and no Kobe) and Dwight ran away from his team. He ran away. The Spurs lost to the Heat in most devastating fashion in Game 6 last year. There was no discussion of blowing the team up. We replace Gary Neal and move on. This year, after the Spurs beat the Heat, a team that went to 4 freaking Finals in a row, the fanbase wants to blow everything up instead of believing in the group that got you there in the first place! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 People have been saying Stockton was overrated for years. It's garbage, but that mindset started around 2000 I believe. But you're 100% right and it's more the mindset that ESPN is hiring more and more people like Skip Bayless who really just say shit to say shit. I'd say he is overrated, but he was still a hall of famer. He was a top point guard in an era that wasn't really point guard driven. I don't know how he would match up in the league now that it seems like every single point guard is overwhelmingly athletic. I think he'd have nightmares about Russell Westbrook. Then again he was so efficient it could be a surprisingly good match up. Shaq could very well be considered a top 10 player, but man he underachieved. If he had a 10% better work ethic what would he be? He was basically a force of nature, who was also pretty skilled. There really was no way to stop him as a fat, unmotivated, goof, just imagine him being in David Robinson shape, with Kobe's motivation and Jordan's determination. We wouldn't be able to talk about anyone else right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAct Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I don't know that Stockton could defend a Westbrook, Wall or CP3, BUTT I doubt they could contain him either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 People downgrade The Admiral because Hakeem made him his bitch...purely because he could, but that's like saying Malone isn't great because Jordan made him his bitch. And when you're scratching your heads at these, I've legitimately heard both of these points this month along on some random ESPN radio show while at work in that Robinson wasn't great because Hakeem humbled him and the same for Malone-Jordan. I want to point out that Hakeem made Robinson his bitch exactly once in his career... 1995 playoffs as David was getting the MVP award. And fuck Dennis Rodman that year. Up until 1996-1997 (whenever Robinson got hurt), the top 4 centers were Hakeem, Shaq, David and Patrick Ewing. The only one who had a winning record head to head with all three of the others was David Robinson. In 1994, Hakeem won a championship with a bunch of nobodies who just happened to be clutch shooters (Cassell, Horry). He had Clyde in 1995. Robinson had Elliott. Freaking Shawn Elliott was the Spurs #2 for a decade. What the fuck did people expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I don't know that Stockton could defend a Westbrook, Wall or CP3, BUTT I doubt they could contain him either. Holy shit... if people are losing their shit over Lance Stephenson and his antics... people watching John Stockton today would be blowing up the social media. I wonder if there are John Stockton dirty player collages on youtube like they have of Bruce Bowen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAct Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Well Lance is fucking crazy. Stock was just kind of an ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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