Burgundy LaRue Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 To clarify, I wasn't calling anyone here an asshole. I was being facetious in regards to how LeBron is seen by some. Rodman is a HOFer, and it's not like the rest of the Bulls roster were chumps. I do think the amnesty of Mike Miller is being undersold in this story. He was often the Heat's second best player during the playoffs in 2012-2013. And he spaced the floor well. No Miller around was a problem. This concept of Miami only won two championships, what failures they are! is mind-boggling. Especially when LeBron starts laughing during the whole 'not 3, not 4' spiel. If he had said NOT 29!, would we really have really expected that? The Rock concert is blown out of porportion, too. The Heat had a huge party for Shaq, complete with 18-wheelers turning into portable stages, DJs, confetti guns, and the Heat dancers twerking like it was no tomorrow. Shaq was strutting around like a peacock, and no one said jack squat. And they shouldn't have, because the team set up the party--just like they did in 2010. Now, it can be debated if the players should have gone along with it. But they didn't plan that pep rally. Old Ray was brought to the Heat with one purpose--5 times a year, they need him to hit a big shot. That's it. He hit the shots. He wasn't supposed to play 30 minutes a game at all, but it came to that because of Wade being coddled. Where I cut Bosh some slack is that he was asked to completely change his change to become a 3-point shooting stretch center. He's done that, and done it pretty well. The problem is that the 3-point shooting should have come as an addition to his game, not supercede what was already there. So while Bosh should have combined the two facets better, I'll also point to Spoelstra who had Bosh making the changes without seeing the full impact. That still doesn't help Bosh with his disappearing act, though. Oh, and I've hated the Heatles moniker since it orginated. Then again, I'm not a Beatles fan. I voted for the Miami Heat Experience. But to your point, the Heatles weren't that. The Lennon-McCartney tandem worked when both of them were on their game. Harrison made it even better when the group was together. But if Paul breaks his left hand and George suddenly becomes Ringo--well, John is great and can put out some cool solo projects. But it ain't the Beatles/Heatles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Two great articles on Boris Diaw that Phil Schneider sent to me... http://grantland.com/features/boris-diaw-tony-parker-san-antonio-spurs-nba-playoffs-2014/ http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/11084748/boris-diaw-dishes-san-antonio-spurs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I know you were directing it towards LeBron. My overall point is that if you build yourself up as an experience or the Heatles or the Fab Five or the Rock Gods and have big thumping media circus space age parties and ESPN specials announcing your free agency signing then you are going to be subject to a criticism that guys who keep their heads low and their words few will avoid. I remember watching the Shaq party too and Shaq was never one to mince words and he deserves every single bit of criticism that has come his way because he brought that attention upon himself. Duncan avoids the criticism because of the consistency of the Spurs success and his quiet demeanor. Hell, I think when LeBron retires, they will have a farewell tour in every city with fireworks and confetti. I can see Duncan retiring by just walking off the court and not showing up to work in the off season. He'll just disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Not two, not three... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT-I8jQDQ7c He wasn't blowing smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 So everybody is supposed to be quiet as church mice. Duncan shouldn't criticized for being low-key because it's clearly who he is, but not everyone is built like that. Again, yin and yang. Why no one seems to think there's room for both is beyond me. Especially if you wax nostalgic for 1980s basketball. I don't recall any team being like each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 No, people who act one way illicit a certain response. Those who act another way will get treated differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Obviously, we're not going to agree on this. I'm not in the habit of looking at people as bad eggs just because their personality isn't agreeable to me. As long as they're not criminals or general scum, you have free reign with me on that topic. We want all these different characters to entertain and amuse us. But when they say or do something left of center, we condemn them. Society wants individual Newspeak. But contradictive beings are like that. Not pointing that at anyone--just openly musing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 LeBron is the best player on earth. He was at the peak of his powers this season and, side from a few minutes where his body failed him in Game 1, was an absolute monster on the court.However, I do take joy in the Heat's loss. James and Bosh and Wade engineering their decision to get together in the way they did is well within their rights. It's actually really awesome because it's one of the few times when players actually grabbed some of the decision making power to such a large extent.But those dudes clearly -- not one, not two, not three... -- did a lot of this because they thought it was going to be easy. And it SHOULD have been easy. Four finals in a row is an absolutely insane feat. But they only won two of them and literally came 1/4th of an inch from only having one.Say what you want about the rest of the Heat's roster, but when you have the best player in the world and two wing men who are really awesome -- and Wade, even with injuries, is an incredibly player, and Bosh has possibly the best mid-range game in the world -- and arguably the greatest distance shooter who ever lived, you should win every single year. And it should have been done in a walk.The reason why they lost the two finals they did, and the reason why they were only clearly the best team in the world during that one crazy streak that one season, comes down to attention to details. They do SO MANY little things wrong. Zach Lowe breaks down their failures to get back on transition defense a ton. Wade is the absolute worst at this. He settled down a bit in the finals but that guy constantly screams at refs whenever he doesn't get a call as opposed to getting up to hustle and cover a trailer. LBJ's pin down blocks are a thing of beauty but he, too, does a lot of eye rolls and jogs back.That team constantly has a lot of stuff where Wade or James will get beat on defense and will leak out early in hopes to get an easy basket if they retain the rebound. Now, getting an easy two is always the best option. But cherry picking like that puts your team in a 5-on-4 if an offensive rebound occurs and is just annoying as hell. SB Nation has a video I'll dig up during the first game Kawhi went nuts. LBJ had awful positioning guarding him on the perimeter, letting his hands sag and getting shot over. Bosh CONSTANTLY missed defensive assignments all series. That will happen against the Spurs because of their crazy amount of cuts and screens and ball movement, but Bosh just let guys slip by him while he stayed back in a zone.That's just lazy basketball. That's how they played against Dallas in the finals, too. They should have whipped Dallas, who was essentially Dirk Nowitzki and a lot of role players. All really good, mind you, but JJ Barea tore through in the finals. Let that sink for a few minutes. Wade had an insane season that year and was plenty healthy.That's why I hate the Heat. They should have absolutely crushed the league. They thought they were going to crush the league. And they didn't, aside from a few weeks that one year, and it's all on them for not doing basic stuff like getting hands up on defense, waiting to close out possessions, getting back on defense, knowing what rotations to make, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The issue with the NBA is that there aren't that many players that matter. There are legit 5-10 guys in the entire league that can take you from a lottery team to a playoff team, and even then it doesn't make you a contender. The secret, that Bill Simmons learned from Isiah Thomas and wrote a 700 page book on is that even if you have all the talent in the world it doesn't matter if you don't have the team. The total of a basketball team can either be much more or much less than the sum of it's parts based on so many different factors it is just plain dumb to ever blame an individual player for wins and loses. The Heat were put together in a way that should have been impossible to defeat on paper, but having role players you can depend on is just as important as having superstars. If you don't have a single player you can depend on to get rebounds, you can't win. The Thunder are the biggest example of this in the league, they have four guys they can depend on and everyone else is a liability. Durant and Westbrook are two of the most talented players in the league, but they have to do so much in order for them to be competitive. Ibaka and Jackson do their parts, but no one else on the team pulls their weight. So they play against the Spurs who doesn't have a single player on the level of Durant or Westbrook, but they also have 8 guys they can count on to do their jobs. How do you beat 8 players with 4 players? Popovich should win coach of the year every year, because no one else has figured out how to build a team of 8-9 complimentary parts. The Spurs realized a couple of years ago when the Thunder ran them out of the gym that they couldn't compete with them athletically they'll have to do it with matchups. Most teams are going to war with one or two guys and a pupu platter of dudes that will take low dollars in order pay those one or two stars. The Spurs decided to not overpay anyone and go out to the Brazillian steak house and instead of getting a side of plain white rice, they got beef, chicken, and pork chops. The Heat needed their big 3 to play like the future hall of famers they are to win, and when Wade and Bosh couldn't perform they stood absolutely no chance. There weren't any other options, everyone else on the team were basically the equivalent of the stray dogs that followed LeBron, Wade, and Bosh home. This is an objective look at the situation. In theory, Miami should always work. The problem is one person--LeBron--leads them in points, rebounds, assists, and FG percentage. Can't Bosh grab a ball? Can't Chalmers dish a dime? (we all know that's a resounding NO) Can anyone else be effective with their shooting? When Bosh and Wade are on, it's fine. Even if one of them are on and a seondary player gets hot, it works. And LeBron is the one constant. The issue is that Wade and Bosh have become inconsistent. And I don't know how that's blamed on LeBron. Likewise, the early leaks on rebounds. That's clearly a team concept. It's annoying at times, but not something I think the players came up with. Even if they thought it would be easy in 2010, do you really think they saw it that way in 2014, and especially against the Spurs? I didn't get that impression. Saying they play bad basketball seems jaded, even you if you don't like their brand of basketball. They played 16 playoffs series and won 14. Clearly, the plan worked at some point. Again, I think the whole hate the Heat/LeBron/Decision mantra has a moving target that naysayers push around whenever it's convenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 They don't play bad basketball. When they were trapping and running all over the court a few years back, it was terrific. LeBron and Wade taking someone one-on-one in the post is terrific to watch.But those little things are what kills them. Maybe the leaking out is a team philosophy but it's incredibly dumb if it is. You have some incredible finishers on that team -- Wade and LBJ are historically awesome finishers -- and having a head start isn't exactly a requisite for them to secure two points. But there are so many other things -- the not getting back on defense, poor hand position on defense, mixed rotations -- that just reek of a bunch of guys who never bothered to fix what was glaringly wrong. And Pat Riley, one of the most insanely detailed coaches of all-time, is the team president. And Spo seems like a really detailed guy, too. I put that dumb stuff on the players.Compare them to the Spurs. They don't have those bad habits, save for Manu's habits of trying to make spectacular passes he can't make a lot of times. Even OKC doesn't have that many problems, even with Russ getting crazy a lot of times.Making four finals is a ridiculously amazing feat. But they could have revolutionized basketball. Legitimately. Those players with those skills should have been the single most thrilling thing in American team sports to watch -- hate them or love them, they should have been completely overwhelming. They weren't, and it's largely because of their b.s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 LeBron, Wade, and Bosh at their peaks didn't have many flaws as a group once they figured out how to play together. LeBron and Wade had the ability to get to the basket better than just about any one in the leauge, and Bosh was a very good post player with 20 foot range. They could also swarm on defense as well as any team in history. It was so hard to score against their size and athleticism. Wade's legs are just too far gone to be able to play like that any more. He used to be a really good defender, now he is one of the worst transition defenders in the league. I was listening to Lebatard a couple of weeks ago and he was talking about how Wade led the league in the pointing and screaming "A LITTLE HELP," as his man was running by him. Bosh is just a strange case I believe he is considered the best pick and roll defending big man in the league, but he isn't a rim protector and isn't that good of a rebounder. The team was also hurt by making their best big man a spot up three point shooter. They were always a poor rebounding team, but now they are abismal. Those things are their biggest problems, but they would have been competitive with better play from their role players who were just plain terrible the entire series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The problem here is that many of LeBron's biggest supporters whether it is a media personality or Burgundy are unhappy with any kind of criticism towards LeBron because they want him to be the greatest of all time. LeBron is the king in their eyes. LeBron himself embraced much of this.. That's the whole reason why LeBron is facing some criticism now. He is the best player in the world and we should all be happy with that but he has not yet achieved "greatest of all time". He still has work to do. His supporters want to hand him the crown. That's not how it works. When you are compared to Jordan and Kareem and Wilt, etc.. you are held to a higher standard. These are conversations that shouldn't even take place until a guy is retired but everyone in this day and age wants to speed up the process.. They are too quick to say he failed and too quick to say he's the greatest. Nobody wants to let it breathe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I agree wholeheartedly. it would be different if he was at the end of his career like Timmy where you can see the end is near. Lebron may go down similar to Wilt where he has the stats and the highlights and individual performances but doesn't collect the jewelry that his peers collected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The problem here is that many of LeBron's biggest supporters whether it is a media personality or Burgundy are unhappy with any kind of criticism towards LeBron because they want him to be the greatest of all time. LeBron is the king in their eyes. LeBron himself embraced much of this.. That's the whole reason why LeBron is facing some criticism now. He is the best player in the world and we should all be happy with that but he has not yet achieved "greatest of all time". He still has work to do. His supporters want to hand him the crown. That's not how it works. When you are compared to Jordan and Kareem and Wilt, etc.. you are held to a higher standard. These are conversations that shouldn't even take place until a guy is retired but everyone in this day and age wants to speed up the process.. They are too quick to say he failed and too quick to say he's the greatest. Nobody wants to let it breathe. For starters, Kareem is my favorite player and my pick for greatest of all time. But you don't agree with that, either. If it's not Jordan or Bird, you ain't having it. So what if LeBron embraced his persona? Lots of athletes do, but few have been dissected for it like LeBron. You see, we're having the same argument, just on different ends. You don't want him to be crowned the best ever. I don't want that plate taken off the table until we seen everything. And in the middle is a guy who's really great at what he does. There's room for improvement, there always is. But he's really damn good right now. I tend not to praise unless it's actually due. It's not like I'm applauding Stefon Marbury here. At no point have I said LeBron is the greatest of all time. I've said he was the greatest player today. I agree that many of these conversations shouldn't be happening. But they are. Welcome to the 24-hour news cycle and hot takes, where 6-8 topics are the mainstay and LeBron/Miami happens to be one of them. Not once have I said anyone should hand LeBron anything. I've tried to say be objective. Criticism is one thing--if it's fair. But you know as well as I do that LeBron and media/fan objectivity have never met. I have often said that the reason the sports world turned on LeBron so fast in 2010 is because they didn't like him that much in the first place. I dare say he hasn't been liked since he entered the league. Not as much as some may think. The thing is, neither side is objective. And only a few of us on either side will admit that. LeBron is polarizing for reasons that defy me. I don't find him controversial. And if he's arrogant--so what? He's not the first, won't be the last. LeBron may win five more rings. He may not win another. He may play until he's 45. He may shatter a leg next season and be forced to retire. We don't know. I have just never seen someone be as good as what he does and so few take joy in watching it. Even if he has embraced the royal treatment, it doesn't stop me from wanting to watch him play. What do I care if LeBron is self-important? Just entertain me. Which he does. We have different opinons on this, and that's cool. That doesn't mean we can't talk about it. But at least debate what I've actually said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I guess you could always start by pointing to where I said Kareem wasn't the greatest or whatever it was because I don't remember bashing Kareem at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I point to that because you onced asked for a NBA player who was as decorated as Jordan, I cited Russell and Kareem. You seemingly disregarded that particular conversation that several of us were having at that time. And that's ultimately why conversations like this are futile. Because the topic is subjective. It's not like the sum of 2+2. Once you get down to the list of the 25 greatest players in any sports, you're splitting hairs. All of them are great. And preference comes down to favorite teams during childhood, the era in which you grew up, etc. So you liked Bird 25 years ago, I like LeBron today, and some unborn kid will like the new guy in 2040. That's the fun part in the futility--the conversation can go on forever--and really, everyone will have a valid argument. Unless you or I or someone else decides otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I agree to an extent. I do think the discussion of "greatest of all time" can be subjective but my point on LeBron was that I didn't believe he had reached that GOAT status yet. I think this is all premature. If he retired today.. you could make a case for Duncan or Kobe or any number of guys over him. That's why we have to let this play out. The media doesn't want to let it play out and many of LeBron's fans don't want to let it play out. I do. My only other criticism was the way he left Cleveland. The Decision. The spectacle. Leaving a 60-win team to team up with another top 5 player who had already won a title in that city. It's not something I want to see more of. Even Boston had to make trades and ship out talent like Al Jefferson to get their team together. I like the idea of allowing a GM to personnel decisions. Then there are the people who say LeBron needs more help. My only issue with that is he left Cleveland and definitely had more than enough help in Miami these past four seasons.. Why must LeBron have the perfect team around him? Why can't Dirk have the perfect team? Why can't Durant have the perfect team? It feels like people don't want to just say the Spurs were BETTER.. and they were better because they were better. There was no other reason behind it. They were the best team this year and they really didn't make any moves from last season besides getting Bellinelli. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Discussing LeBron's legacy in settled terms is insane right now. I mean, we can discuss Timmy's, Kobe's, and Dirk's. As long as we still remain open to the idea that one of them (*cough*Duncan*cough*) might suddenly get a chance to significantly add to his legacy in his late 30's, we can discuss where they fit all-time. LeBron? Give him until at least his mid-30's. GOAT is still on the table for him, depending on what happens. So, honestly, is "second best player of his era" behind Durant, depending on what happens. But what's he done on the court the last 3 years (and he was great before that, no doubt) is insanely great. It's Jordan level. (Oh, and Magic > Bird.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Brian is on my cuddly list for the Magic nod. Celtics suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The good thing is the Garden has more than enough banners to shed my tears on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Watching the River Parade and the All Spurs All the Time on the TV... Gotta give some love to my favorite Spurs moments from the finals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mco543 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 No game 2 minimovie? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Also you're kidding yourselves. Jordan all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 No game 2 minimovie? I don't remember Game 2 ever happening. I just recall playing one game in San Antonio and Game 3 happening a week later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 No game 2 minimovie? 'Tis most unfair. You should file a complaint with an administrator! Oh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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