rzombie1988 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Wrestlers that traditionally make other wrestlers look good usually stay in the position to make other wrestlers look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 To be more clear, the reactions fans had weren't The Authority kept Daniel Bryan out of the match, it was that Triple H/Vince/Stephanie kept him out, not as characters, but as booker/writers. They're not wanting him to beat the characters of The Authority, they want him to beat the system of the WWE. I think the Authority storyline has purposely conflated the two to a point that they might as well be the same thing. We're in a post-Russo Worked Shoot era, just as we were with the CM Punk "Pipebomb" thing and the Rock/Cena feud where insults were partly catered to "You are a part-timer who doesn't love the business/Your gimmick sucks and only kids like it." I don't know how I feel about this era, but I think I preferred the focus being on winning titles to a) be the best and to b) make money. For example, most folks here have this criticism, but if Cole would even mention the "pay windah" in a meaningless Kofi/Swagger match or what have you, we get some motivation for the wrestlers and might invest ourselves in a wrestler in the hopes that they actually have something to gain or lose by winning or losing. On the other hand, maybe the illusion wouldn't work anymore because too many fans know about downside guarantees and that wrestlers get paid a cut of their merch, and this is WWE's response to a more cynical audience. A magician's act stops being effective when you know how the tricks work, after all. I'm not sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'm also disappointed about how they bring along younger stars. I know little about Big E's motivation, I had hoped they'd have given him a minute to cut a promo after beating Curtis Axel, "Three is not good enough." But nope. Instead each moment must be carefully manufactured so only what we intend to be memorable happens. I think this is a big problem with wrestling as a whole. Wrestlers need some mic time and some footage with them outside of the ring to really grasp what they are all about. As they said last year in CMLL, "you can't get over unless you get mic time". It doesn't even have to be much. 1 minute a week or less would honestly be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Jae finally giving up on Dolph is a welcome start to the month. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool arrow Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Wrestlers that traditionally make other wrestlers look good usually stay in the position to make other wrestlers look good. Oh, I don't know about that. Ric Flair always made other wrestlers look great. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'm also disappointed about how they bring along younger stars. I know little about Big E's motivation, I had hoped they'd have given him a minute to cut a promo after beating Curtis Axel, "Three is not good enough." But nope. Instead each moment must be carefully manufactured so only what we intend to be memorable happens. I think this is a big problem with wrestling as a whole. Wrestlers need some mic time and some footage with them outside of the ring to really grasp what they are all about. As they said last year in CMLL, "you can't get over unless you get mic time". It doesn't even have to be much. 1 minute a week or less would honestly be enough. They brought back those pre-recorded promos that they'd inset during a match in the top-left or top-right corner. Then they went away again. That's a nice tool to have because you can let dudes cut promos on one another to advance feuds while also getting a glorified squash match done and kill two birds with one stone. You can also just let a guy you're pushing (say Big E) share his motivation for winning/keeping the belt and what he plans to do next during one of his matches. They should take a look at doing those again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLaw Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Man... months with 31 days are long. God Bless February. Yeah, but... Four weeks until March... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Maybe you're right. I just want the WWE to care who wins or loses, so that it can at least mean something to me. It could be the fan's fault. With our 5 star matches and workrate debates. Wrestling feels like it's gotten too "meta", to where the characters are aware that fans want a good match, and so the character motivation is getting a five star review in the Observer. It's like wrestling has become sentient and my relationship with it now feels like Dave and HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey.. This is kind of why the independents stereotype became this thing where guys were throwing out Canadian Destroyers off of ring apron through a Davey Richards for two counts in the opening match, everyone wants to be The Dynamite Kid and no one wants to be Black Bart. Part of why I like NXT is because I feel as though I get the motivation for the characters. Sami wants to fight the good fight and take on the hardest competition he can. Tyler wants to get there without doing any hard work and protecting his face. Emma wants to be entertaining in her own unique way. Russev wants to get there by walking over the corpses of his enemies. Even a low card guy like Sylvester LaFort wants to rip off his clients and make the money (and go to Sizzler). I would love for winning and losing to matter again. I would love it. But WWE would have to slow the blank down with 4 shows a week filled with competitive matches. Again take a hint from NXT who with only an hour of show a week puts in 1 or 2 squashes so your people can work on their character more. It did wonders for Aiden English and The Ascension. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scraylo187 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Maybe you're right. I just want the WWE to care who wins or loses, so that it can at least mean something to me. It could be the fan's fault. With our 5 star matches and workrate debates. Wrestling feels like it's gotten too "meta", to where the characters are aware that fans want a good match, and so the character motivation is getting a five star review in the Observer. It's like wrestling has become sentient and my relationship with it now feels like Dave and HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey.. On the other hand they have been VERY vocal about the win/loss record of THE SHIELD, and I think it really paid off for those three. Wins and losses against Punk even fed into their story. It's a shame the company can't be more consistent about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 This is one of the first matches I remember watching. I forget now if I watched it live or on tape. Probably on tape because it says its from 1989. I quickly became a Brian Pillman fan but one of the things I remembered is that the winner of this match receives $5,000. That meant something to me. I didn't even know what wrestling was really but I was invested in this because there was something at stake. That's what's missing in today's WWE. Why are Kofi and Fandango fighting again? Who the hell knows. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGEpSn-pkA4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I watched Vader vs. Stone Cold yesterday, and Austin just said FUCK IT, and stunned the ref. I think it was JR yelled, "He's going to get fined!" and immediately I remembered, "Oh fuck there's money involved and he lost the winner's purse AND will lose money for the stunner. What kind of guy is this?" That idea made Austin even more of a loose cannon and a threat. He could get away with that because he knew he had a main event match at the Final Four PPV with the title on the line. On the other hand, maybe the illusion wouldn't work anymore because too many fans know about downside guarantees and that wrestlers get paid a cut of their merch, and this is WWE's response to a more cynical audience. A magician's act stops being effective when you know how the tricks work, after all. I'm not sure. My reaction to that is: Everyone knows it's not real, but that doesn't they don't want to suspend their disbelief. Wrestling has an advantage over theatre and film in that, despite predetermined outcomes, there are two men in the ring really risking their health - that's reality. And the more they can blur that reality of competition and soap opera the better the fans can immerse themselves in that reality for 2-3 hours of TV. It doesn't have to go into Wrestle-LARP, or something super convoluted, just reestablish why the fuck these guys are here wrestling each other. It's gotta be more than "make fans happy." This is an era where we have some of the best in-ring pr0duct in WWE's HISTORY. Which makes these little frustrations become big ones. If they had the focus of the old days(80's/early 90's) in terms of booking and character motivation, this could be the best era in the company's history. I was thinking the other day, Dean Ambrose is a champion, he gets a champion bonus. Reigns and Rollins don't. BUT they do help his ass keep the title A LOT. So does he split the bonus with them? That would be an extra little needle to drive wedges in the SHIELD, that I'd love to see get played out. Jae finally giving up on Dolph is a welcome start to the month. I have not, I think he's still a really good wrestler, but this character needs a ton of work in order for him to matter in the big picture. I'm happy if he's only a midcard/uppermid, guy, because he's great in that role. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Wins and losses do matter in the WWE. The entire story of the year has been Daniel Bryan proving himself as not the wink link by winning into him not winning the belt because the game is rigged. Cody and Dustin had one of the best stories in ages and it was predicated first on them losing matches and then winning matches. Sandow's whole persona is because he can't win. Everyone got pissy because the "wrong" guy won the Rumble. They made The Shield into world beaters because they win. And they've made Reigns an impending superstar because he has gotten more pin falls/eliminations than anyone. They can do more with the secondary singles titles but that's really not that huge a deal. The only feud they had where wins haven't mattered was Punk vs. Heyman. That was about how Punk's obsession kept on making him lose matches and not get a shot at the man who betrayed him. If he kept focused on winning and by Heyman, he would have gotten their earlier. So wins there even mattered. "Wins don't matter" is a pretty tired trope. I mean, they could do a better job with the secondary belts. That's about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 And in the post-kayfabe era, the only time the WWE gets its name out there is because of a work-shoot. The Bryan stuff got written about on the BBC's website. The Punk stuff is on TMZ. People eat up the mystery of he backstage stuff. Only wrestling can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 And in the post-kayfabe era, the only time the WWE gets its name out there is because of a work-shoot. The Bryan stuff got written about on the BBC's website. The Punk stuff is on TMZ. People eat up the mystery of he backstage stuff. Only wrestling can do that. Is this you wanting Russo back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 This is what happens when you have 50/50 booking dating back 10 years ago. Wins don't matter and neither do losses, unless you're booked into a losing streak gimmick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 "Wins don't matter" is a pretty tired trope. I mean, they could do a better job with the secondary belts. That's about it. Maybe I'm speaking about it in the wrong terms, but it doesn't really feel consistent to me. Wins of course matter in the context of they are building an eventual winner of a match, but the prize and motivation often feel vague. FACE OF THE WWE doesn't really do it for me. The reaction to Cody winning in order to get his and and his brother's job back was BRILLIANT. But it played into the idea that they need eachother and they needed to feed their families. Cody losing his job after just getting married hit home and people connected to that. Plenty of motivation, and the response, even though we all know "Cody Runnels" was really employed by the WWE, was heartfelt. What is Roman Reigns gaining from his wins? Momentum? I need more than that. He eliminated a bunch of people in the Rumble. Hooray. Does he get a bonus for that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 No, because Russo's work shoots sucked. Like the one with Dustin was so friggin' bad. Compare that with Shane Douglass's ECW reign. He got over because he trashed Ric Flair in shoot stuff. That stuff was believable. Even Foley's promos were shoot-ish. Punk's first pipe bomb was great. It set up so many things. First, it got so much attention. Secondly, he mentioned HHH being married to Steph and Vince being out-of-touch. Then a few weeks later, HHH surplants his father-in-law. He also named dropped Big Johnny for the first time on TV and introduced that character. It was genius. Russo couldn't do anything that nuanced at all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 WWE's good at coming up with excuses to have guys lose. "We're giving him the title, he can do jobs for a month first." or "We just gave him a title, it's fine if he jobs for a month." In Dolph Ziggler's case, I believe both of these happened consecutively. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I look at the lack of a payday as playing off of athletes having guaranteed contracts. Sure, you get a bonus if you win the World Series but that's not why guys want to win the World Series. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Yeah, but Baseball is boring as shit, so I feel like this is another point in my favor. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Dave Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Are we really pretending Dolph Ziggler isn't good at this? I can handle the Mark Henry Worship, because I too believe in keeping my air bill paid, but I remember this place being pretty nuts for Ziggs for a while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offspring515 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 If Michael Cole started talking about the pay window people would call it hokey bullshit and rip him for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I think money as a motivator makes sense from the perspective of your directionless mid carders like a Wade Barrett or Kofi Kingston. It is a quick and easy way to make the characters relatable in a sports context. And damn if they shouldn't start a Crockett Cup Million Dollar Six Man Tag Team Tournament next week to end at Wrestlemania. But the reason you talk about money is for the people that are an exception to the rule like Cena (who does it for the Universe), Daniel Bryan (who can and has done it for peanuts) or Alberto Del Rio (who doesn't need the money and does it for kicks). Who wouldn't love The Wyatts laughing at a fine because what the heck do they care about money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scraylo187 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Plus, you can still have the 'worked shoots' and keep a focus on guys winning. They've done it nicely with Daniel Bryan- the game isn't rigged against him so he gets less opportunities to 'perform for the WWE universe better than anyone else can!.' The game is rigged against him getting the world title. Traich and Steph put him in punishing situations against the Wyatts and then coyly suggested they kept him out of the Rumble out of concerns for his health. If they took Dolph's irritatingly Glee-like 'I just wanna sing cause I'm the best singer here' and focused it on 'I want to take the US title from the Shield and become the longest reigning US champ because I'm the best' I'd buy that. It gives him a sports focused goal and it makes you care about the US title, because someone cares about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scraylo187 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 But the reason you talk about money is for the people that are an exception to the rule like Cena (who does it for the Universe), Daniel Bryan (who can and has done it for peanuts) or Alberto Del Rio (who doesn't need the money and does it for kicks). Who wouldn't love The Wyatts laughing at a fine because what the heck do they care about money? This is a really good point, too. When you keep everyone a little more sports focused, characters like 'people's champion' and 'we're just a crazy cult here to kill people' and 'I'm doing this so I can become a famous race car driver' stand out more, and it makes them special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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