Examining post-prime wrestlers

[odessasteps]

Mr Wrestling 2

Ivan Koloff

[Chaos]

Granted, it was like a two month type deal, but Ricky Steamboat during his Wrestlemania 25/Backlash feud with Jericho definitely qualifies. Neither matches were classics, but Steamboat showed he could still outwork 80% of the roster.

[LooseCannon]

Mr Wrestling 2

Ivan Koloff

 

I'd like to hear some opinions on Ivan Koloff in his prime vs Ivan Koloff post-prime.

[Hooks]

Rick Martels WCW run in 1998 came out of nowhere and had an excellent string of matches before he blew his knee out.

 

Holy shit, yes.  I remember being a huge fan of the Martel comeback.  He was in fantastic shape and really delivering in the ring.

 

I also chime in that this is an excellent topic. In excess it can be intolerable (as with anything), but many "Memphis style" of workers can and have continued well past their physical prime (Lawler, Dundee, Landel, et al) w/o an inordinate reliance on shtick (Valiant (forgive me Boogie Woogie)). The psychology pf working has always been most interesting to me, and controlling a crowd is the apex of the art. I too will put more thoughts down soon,

- RAF

 

I couldn't agree more with this. 

 

A little over 10 years ago I saw Boogie Woogie at an indy show in Nowhere. Ohio.  He took probably 5 to 10 minutes to actually get to the ring because he was dancing his way through the crowd kissing men, women, children, and just engaging everyone in the building.  Then in the actual match, the closest he came to taking a bump was dropping to one knee while holding the ropes and rolling over on his back.  He went over, though I don't remember how.  And it was one of the most entertaining things you could ever hope to see.  The crowd loved it, and for him to do anything else would have been silly. 

[RandomAct]

One of the largest crowds we ever had for CWF Mid-Atlantic was because we booked Jimmy Valiant.  Again, he did next to nothing, and went over with the sleeper.  Crowd was mental.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

Hearing about Jimmy V reminds me of when I went to a local show in Arkansas with American Kickboxer around 1999 or so.  Moondog Rex ended up booking Kickboxer in the main event with Valiant, which wasn't originally expected, but they had a fun little match with Kickboxer bumping all over the place.  On the drive back I asked him about working with "The Boogie Woogie Man" and he said their backstage pre-match discussion was a short one.  "Brother," Valiant said after introductions, "I ain't gonna bump for ya, and if I fall down help me up."  Somehow the subsequent conversation veered off into Jimmy extolling the virtues of vegetarianism.  

 

Anyways, it was a fun Memphis-styled match with lots of mugging and whatnot.  I had fun.

[Matt D]

If this was an experiment, the control would be RVD. 

[MonteCarl]

As for guys lengthening their careers by going to a tag team, how about Bill Eadie? From Masked Superstar to Ax in Demolition

[cool arrow]

Hearing about Jimmy V reminds me of when I went to a local show in Arkansas with American Kickboxer around 1999 or so.  Moondog Rex ended up booking Kickboxer in the main event with Valiant, which wasn't originally expected, but they had a fun little match with Kickboxer bumping all over the place.  On the drive back I asked him about working with "The Boogie Woogie Man" and he said their backstage pre-match discussion was a short one.  "Brother," Valiant said after introductions, "I ain't gonna bump for ya, and if I fall down help me up."  Somehow the subsequent conversation veered off into Jimmy extolling the virtues of vegetarianism.  

 

Anyways, it was a fun Memphis-styled match with lots of mugging and whatnot.  I had fun.

 

If a vegetarian diet makes you look like Valiant, then I'll stick with meat, and lots of it.

[Matt D]

As for guys lengthening their careers by going to a tag team, how about Bill Eadie? From Masked Superstar to Ax in Demolition

 

Bill Eadie may be one of the people who led me to think about this in the first place. 

[TerjeRUN]

As for guys lengthening their careers by going to a tag team, how about Bill Eadie? From Masked Superstar to Ax in Demolition

 

Ted Dibiase joing IRS to form Money INC extended his career by a couple of years. When his WWF contract ended and he went to AJPW for a couple of shows, his body fell apart on him and he had to leave the tour early. 

[AND THE BEAT GOES ON!]

I'd have Austin's best years as 2001. He was on borrowed time by that point but the time off allowed him to do things he couldn't do at the peak of his overness in '98, if only for a year before he started to fall to bits. Off the top of my head we have:

Vs HHH No Way Out

Vs Rock Wrestlemania

W/ Trips vs Benoit/Jericho

Vs Benoit Smackdown sometime in May?

Vs Angle at Summerslam

[KanadianKrusty]

 

Rick Martels WCW run in 1998 came out of nowhere and had an excellent string of matches before he blew his knee out.

 

Holy shit, yes.  I remember being a huge fan of the Martel comeback.  He was in fantastic shape and really delivering in the ring.

 

 

I should add, he said in a local radio interview that he got BOTH hips done just a few years after his final run. Dude was hurting but he went all out.

[Brian Fowler]

Hell, that was the same time as Marty Jannetty's out of nowhere WCW run too.  Had Martel, Finlay, Booker, and Marty all in that weird but awesome tv title scene.

 

Of course, for Jannetty, there's that bad-ass match with Angle from '05.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

Christopher Daniels and Frankie Kazarian have definitely discovered 'less is more' later in their careers and been better workers for it. Will be interesting to see how they do outside the confines of TNA.

[Chaos]

I'd have Austin's best years as 2001. He was on borrowed time by that point but the time off allowed him to do things he couldn't do at the peak of his overness in '98, if only for a year before he started to fall to bits. Off the top of my head we have:

Vs HHH No Way Out

Vs Rock Wrestlemania

W/ Trips vs Benoit/Jericho

Vs Benoit Smackdown sometime in May?

Vs Angle at Summerslam

 

There's a great Benoit match at RAW as well in that same week. 

May of 2001 was great for free TV wrestling:

Benoit/Austin Twice

Benoit/Jericho vs HHH/Austin

TLC 3

[SirSmUgly]

It is cool to see that people are interested in the idea. I unfortunately don't have as much time to write anything for myself as I would like to, so hopefully the folks who run this site will be okay with me bumping it well into the future. 

 

Anyway, I'm going to try and make these reviews a bit shorter because I have Lit Major Syndrome, and I typically lack brevity. 

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Kurt Angle, WWE King of the Ring, 23 June 2002

 

If I were going to do a thread about guys who peaked incredibly early in their careers and then went downhill even when they were still in decent physical shape, Kurt Angle might be my first focus, though Kurt probably deteriorated physically pretty dang quickly come to think of it. Anyway, I don't remember much of this match, and I don't really enjoy Angle past his 2001 Austin series, so we'll see how it goes. 

 

Angle must have had his head shaved around this time because he has that intentionally terrible looking headpiece held on with wrestling headgear that genuinely makes me laugh because of how stupid it looks. Hogan gets chants and motions to Angle that the people are going to power him through this one. Hogan wants to use his power advantage, and Angle wants to outwrestle Hogan and get him on the mat. One nice thing about this match is that Hogan clearly looks to avoid getting on the mat, countering out of Angle's takedown attempts early. However, when Hogan does try to trade holds with Angle, he typically struggles to maintain control badly. This is all logical, which is something I value in my matches, I guess. 

 

Angle does use his speed advantage to get an advantage, but whenever he tries to stick with strikes too long, Hogan finds a way to turn the tide. Angle resorts to low-blows and eye rakes to get the advantage back when this happens. Really, Angle in control is pretty methodical at this point, which is a big contrast from his usual go-go-go behavior that he really gets into by the time 2003 rolls around. 

 

Angle works a sleeper spot which Hogan fights out of before eating a suplex. Angke hits an Angle Slam, but kicks out. Angle pulls the straps down, but Hogan Hulks up out of Angle's punches, hits a big boot, and decides to expose Angle's bald head instead of going for the legdrop. Ross sells it like Angle is Quasimodo or something, which makes me laugh. Angle freaks out and decides to quit until Hogan puts on the piece and mocks him. Angle whiffs on a chairshot, hits himself, and then gets out of the way of a legdrop and applies the Ankle Lock. Hogan...taps out, which I don't remember happening. Wow, that genuinely surprised me.

 

This was more paint-by-numbers face Hogan than the other stuff I have re-watched so far, but there wasn't much else beyond that, though I did really enjoy Hogan's work to fight the Ankle Lock, which was my favorite thing from him in the match. That finishing run once Angle comes back to the ring with the chair was actually quite nice. 

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Brock Lesnar, WWE Smackdown!, 08 August 2002. 

 

This is another match in which you have the young lion vs. the old lion as the primary narrative structure backing the match. The difference is that Hogan is a full-blown face here instead of still heeling it as against The Rock. 

 

Cole and Tazz sell that Hogan needs to feed off the crowd (and use his Hulk Up wisely) to beat this monster as Hogan poses in the ring. Hogan preps himself after the staredown, jogging around the ring, firing up the crowd, spitting on his hands. He sells how much of a task this is going to be. Lesnar shoves him over, and Hogan has a nice look on his face that shows that he definitely understands the level of athlete he's up against. 

 

The theme of the match is essentially that Brock is younger and better, but Hogan feeds off the crowd to channel as much of 1985 Hogan as he possibly can and tries to capitalize off rookie mistakes, like Brock telegraphing a corner charge. Brock bumps really nicely for Hogan's offense here, too, as a side note. 

 

When Brock is on offense, Hogan's bodily selling is okay, but again, what I like most about Hogan's work is his facial expressions when he realizes he's in trouble or that he has a big task ahead of him. Honestly, this match is more of a showcase for Brock, who does everything well in this match, including taunting the crowd to chant for Hogan, bumping, and throwing some nice offense, like a corner punch reversal into a sweet powerbomb. . 

 

Hogan's control spots are basically always short and off Brock making a clear mistake and the fans cheering Hogan back into it. Hogan Hulks up, hits a big boot, but gets almost F5-ed off a big boot; he reverses, hits another Big Boot and a legdrop. Lesnar kicks out at two, and Hogan sells surprise even though a few guys had done so by now. Then, going for another legdrop, Heyman runs distraction, and Lesnar jumps on Hogan for the F5 and bearhug, leading to Hogan bleeding and passing out to end the match by KO/ref stoppage. Then, Lesnar chairshots and trash talks Hogan after the match to put a cherry on top. 

 

Hogan was solid here in his facial expressions, but really, this is more the Brock show (with a side assist from Heyman yelling SQUUUUUUUEEEZE on the outside of the ring during the bearhug and BROCK, YOU'RE GONNA KILL 'IM before Brock hits Hogan with a chair after the match). The match was shorter, which makes sense since Brock was killing everyone, and really, Hogan got his ass kicked here except for very brief control spots that were due to Brock making rookie mistakes. 

 

Hogan bumps well enough and the powerbomb bump is pretty impressive at this point, but Hogan is really relying more on selling the match through facial expressions and firing up the crowd during the Hulk Up. 

 

So far, I keep noting that Hogan in a big match really sells it with his work in the early part of the match, and I do like that his matches seem to have a pattern where he takes the advantage through veteran exploitation of the mistakes of his opponents or through drawing power from the fans, but other than that, the younger and more vicious competition tends to eat him up. Hogan is really wonderful when he shows vulnerability as he did against Rock and against Brock.

[Brian Fowler]

I love Heyman yelling at Brock about Hogan being different.

[RandomAct]

I love Heyman yelling at Brock about Hogan being different.

I was going to bring that up too.  Easily my favorite part of that match.  Really sold that Hogan had a real chance because he's Hogan.

[Pete]

Surprised no one mentioned Akira Nogami yet. He's with Tajiri's group, in the business end of his 40s and does a ton of acting in Japan, yet he still gets around like a cat 20 years younger.

[RandomAct]

I think the right answer might be Tenryu.  Dude was still putting on classics well into his 50's.

[LooseCannon]

I think the right answer might be Tenryu.  Dude was still putting on classics well into his 50's.

 

I think the point of the thread is to answer the question: How did he change his style compared to twenty years before that?

[Matt D]

It's tricky because you have the categories of guys who either are just physical specimens and can go at a level when they are 45 that most guys can't go at when they are 25 or that work less matches so can go all out in the few that they do. 

That's not necessarily as interesting as either a) Looking at those wrestlers and if they've mastered their craft to a level to work different than they did twenty years earlier (or at least differently than the rest of the roster in some ways) or b> to look at people who aren't at that physical level in their older years and how they adapt and how through adapting we can see that they GET this primal understanding of how pro wrestling works. 

[RandomAct]

Look I'm just trying to win here.  And yes, Tenryu changed his style.  He became grumpier.

[HumanChessgame]

Has anyone mentioned Liger yet?  He's been really good at adapting his style to compensate for his age and decreased agility.