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ROH Death Before Dishonor 2022 - 23 July 2022


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6 hours ago, porksweats said:

Tony said during the media scrum that Dark/Elevation are AEW developmental and ROH isn't going to be considered that.

Here we have an example of a Communication Breakdown. I wasn't questioning or suggesting ROH becoming AEW developmental. I was wondering why they've thus far decided not to use the Elevation taping, prior to Dynamite/Rampage, to run a weekly ROH TV. At least while working out a better streaming or TV deal. 

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7 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

It’s always interesting to see ‘communication’ issue discussed like it in itself is a major news story. Not to suggest it isn’t an ongoing issue, but that’s the same with any company and, well, life in general. The idea of a wrestling company existing without some sort of tension concerning communication and the creative process while employing all these massive egos is more than a bit ridiculous.

I know you mean well, and you're just looking at AEW with a positivity spin here. But no. Ghosting a dude under contract wondering if you plan on renewing him or not is not normal or okay. Even WWE doesn't operate like that. You may get a BS answer, but you're gonna get an answer. The Markos / Janelas / Brian Cages have said they could not get any sort of response from the company that employed them. That's not okay. Cage even said he was shocked his contract got renewed because no one would respond to him.

Now as far as Gresham specifically & creative, that I'm little more forgiving of for AEW. There's a boss. There's a head of creative. He's essentially the writer & director of the shows. Pitch ideas as much as you want through the correct channels. But just because TK doesn't text you or call you to specifically tell you if he is or isn't going with that idea isn't lack of communication. Not being happy you're losing or turning heel or whatever is valid. But if the booker doesn't change his mind because of your ideas, that's not disrespecting you. That's just business.

So contractual stuff where they have a department setup to handle questions and concerns ghosting you = bad. The head of creative not giving you detailed replies to each idea you present to the agents / coaches = not as bad. At least that's my take on it all.

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43 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Here we have an example of a Communication Breakdown. I wasn't questioning or suggesting ROH becoming AEW developmental. I was wondering why they've thus far decided not to use the Elevation taping, prior to Dynamite/Rampage, to run a weekly ROH TV. At least while working out a better streaming or TV deal. 

No, I read your point. The time being allotted for Elevation is for AEW Developmental, not to send the ROH guys out to be used in any capacity in that time slot. 

I also wouldn't want to slot the ROH guys in as an afterthought ala 205 Live.

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19 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I get your thought process here. I bolded AEW guys for emphasis. They're all AEW guys now. Gresham was an AEW guy. He had a contract. It's no different than having an expectation that WWE owned NXT should have non contracted guys hold their titles. Not really a realistic strategy. The Briscoes are signed. Dalton Castle is signed. Rush is signed. Gresham is (was) signed. It's all in appearances who is 'ROH' & who is 'AEW'. It's all the same company.

About the only ones on the main PPV event that aren't signed as far as I know are Dragon Lee & The Righteous. That's why I've been critical of this idea of running ROH as an "equal" to AEW. They're just turning ROH into AEW2 with a different logo. And I don't understand the business sense of that. WWE & Triple H era NXT I get. They were stylistically different and going after different markets. AEW & ROH currently are teh equivelant of Raw & Smackdown. In essence it's a brand split with no actual separation or rules. In other words so far the presentation sucks so far. In my opinion that is.

Did watch the PPV but if you made ROH the sports based promotion (as it sounds like it was presented on Saturday night) and kept AEW as the gimmicky stuff and the shenanigan's. then you have your separation.

I've also been saying for a while that one of these streaming services needs to do a wrestling show. Put ROH on HBOmax, build some sort of arena in a warehouse or a sound stage to give it a bit of an identity. Film a few weeks and then let guys do indys. Keep the brands fairly separate but occasionally have talent go back and forth so keep people fresh 

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20 hours ago, mystman said:

I guess I'm just feeling salty about how this all went down. I've been a big fan of ROH for years now, and I feel ambivalent with all their champs losing to AEW guys. I love Claudio, and the FTR vs. Briscoes matches have been amazing. I guess I wish it was a longer transition, with more build up. Maybe a big ROH vs. AEW event. I dunno, but I keep thinking how'd people would've reacted if Vince bought them out and did the same thing. 

Sorry if I'm rambling, and I'm not trying to start an argument. I know it all makes sense. I know TK has to make the changes he thinks are best. But it just really bugs me how this has all gone down.

I feel like with Tony K wanting to reboot ROH he wants the belts on bigger names at first Claudio, FTR, even Dalton and The Boys are better known than the Righteous 

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7 hours ago, just drew said:

I’m far from the only person making this accusation, including people that know them, but I won’t bring it up again…

 

2 hours ago, just drew said:

Maybe I just grew up in an area where too many youth pastors “waited” for select female students in their charge before pursuing them. I remain skeptical…

What in the fuck? Are you this fucking dumb? Go away.

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I’ll spitball a couple of ideas. 
 

If formulating a good strategy for rebuilding ROH is the expectation in this moment.  I have to think that’s asking a lot at this point.  It’s awfully early in the process.  ROH is coming back in some form and I get that getting it right is paramount.  

IS piggybacking on a Dark taping a good idea if it’s that easy to now conflate ROH as a developmental program?  Because obviously some people WILL draw that conclusion and write off ROH.  I feel I might since I don’t watch Dark/Elevation because the once or twice I did… I thought I was watching AEW Wrestling Challenge.  

Another issue is a solo tv taping sounds expensive.  But the brand identity has a stronger integrity if you do?  Hopefully?

I can’t say either way what the right thing to do is.  But I can say that TK is two shows in and ROH is elevated in my attention span in ways it hasn’t since Gabe left.  I bought the ppv in March and bought tickets for this weekend.  I guess I’m in.

Looking at it strictly from an HR pov.  I get it that it sucks for Greshem and the company needs to do better.  If AEW is going to be the antidote to WWE, one of those ills that needs curing is having a better forum for employees(?) to manage their careers.

 

Edited by Brandon Bones
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2 hours ago, porksweats said:

No, I read your point. The time being allotted for Elevation is for AEW Developmental, not to send the ROH guys out to be used in any capacity in that time slot. 

I also wouldn't want to slot the ROH guys in as an afterthought ala 205 Live.

I think they have been sending quite a few 'ROH' guys and gals out there, and in a weekly capacity. The current approach of sliding the roster in and out on the Darks, Rampage and Dynamite gives the feel of too many title belts. To me anyway. We can agree to disagree on the use of the Elevation slot. Just seems like a good placeholder might (at this point) be in order. Hopefully I'm wrong, and TV is around the corner. 

3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I know you mean well, and you're just looking at AEW with a positivity spin here. But no. Ghosting a dude under contract wondering if you plan on renewing him or not is not normal or okay. Even WWE doesn't operate like that. You may get a BS answer, but you're gonna get an answer. The Markos / Janelas / Brian Cages have said they could not get any sort of response from the company that employed them. That's not okay. Cage even said he was shocked his contract got renewed because no one would respond to him.

Now as far as Gresham specifically & creative, that I'm little more forgiving of for AEW. There's a boss. There's a head of creative. He's essentially the writer & director of the shows. Pitch ideas as much as you want through the correct channels. But just because TK doesn't text you or call you to specifically tell you if he is or isn't going with that idea isn't lack of communication. Not being happy you're losing or turning heel or whatever is valid. But if the booker doesn't change his mind because of your ideas, that's not disrespecting you. That's just business.

So contractual stuff where they have a department setup to handle questions and concerns ghosting you = bad. The head of creative not giving you detailed replies to each idea you present to the agents / coaches = not as bad. At least that's my take on it all.

I do mean well, but no positive spin was needed or applied. I'm not so sure we know all the details of these stories. Further, Janela went to twitter to defend Khan, so perhaps it's worth considering there's some finer points to know about these second hand stories. Each of the cases you mentioned no doubt had a lack of communication. I never suggested otherwise. I did suggest it's a common issue in life. I hope the company works on better communication, but expect there will be issues from time to time.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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ROH is not going to be seen as equal to AEW. I don't care how well TK books it. It has to be a developmental brand and there's nothing wrong with that. Use it to experiment.

The early days of NXT when you could see a 1HR card like Banks v Lynch, English/Gotch v Cass/Enzo, Bull Dempsey vs Baron Corbin & Apollo Crews v Adrian Neville were BRILLIANT. The hype around all the new talent and their booking actually meant something back then.

Imagine not knowing who Gresham was and he spends the next 6 months just stretching guys left and right on ROH Dark every other week. There would be some underground hype. Then you have him defend the title on the Buy In for All in, get some more eyes on ROH without making it feel like it's being shoehorned onto AEW TV.

Then in early 2023 when he's dropped the title and he turns up in AEW it means that little bit more.

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Caprice Coleman and Riccaboni did an excellent job calling this show. Caprice could maybe reel in some of his hyperbole, but it's hard to say that when sometimes his enthusiasm works so well. His awkward 'this isn't a Beauty Pagent' line used during both Women's matches, tho the right intention, might be good to not say going forward. Riccaboni could use to lose some of the trying-too-hard-to-shill stuff. Perhaps telling the audience on the pre-show that some random Brian Cage power move is one of the best things you'll see tonight isn't the best sell. Also, ya might be a step behind the company's business plan if you're telling the audience you have to be in the arena while trying to sell a PPV to the home viewers. They're small things that I'm sure will get worked out as they go along. I think this show proves this duo is only behind Hannifan and Rehwoldt as the top team. Sometimes Coleman is so fun that he seems like he might be the best in the biz. Other times he comes off a bit silly, but both are better than most.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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On 7/24/2022 at 9:15 PM, mystman said:

But isn't that his point? Why is it okay for Claudio's character to be "strong guy who wrestles well" but it's not okay for Gresham?

Claudio has a million times more charisma than Gresham. The decision to go with Claudio as champ is a no-brainer, although they could've done Gresham better than a 10-minute job in the curtain jerk.

 

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I kind of liked the Claudio/Gresham match, and thought Gresham looked pretty good in finding ways to chip away at Claudio..

... but it was also sort of the same way that Emi Sakura looked good bullying and jamming Toni Storm on Elevation last night, so I do get the argument given the setting.

Edited by Matt D
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5 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

Claudio has a million times more charisma than Gresham. The decision to go with Claudio as champ is a no-brainer, although they could've done Gresham better than a 10-minute job in the curtain jerk.

 

I think the booking for that match was a result of Gresham's attitude and position. If you are that pissy about doing the job then you can get smacked around on your way out.

That said; The issue here is how ROH is being handled/presented which I think we can all agree is not working. Why is the ROH World Title any more important than AEWs own All Atlantic or TNT titles?

If there was a clear delineation between the brands then you can better establish the importance of the titles and the people competing for them.

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I understand Gresham’s frustration. I thought it possible he retains, as the TBE was probably the closest thing to a modern horseman, more so than many groups that have obviously wanted to be. Tully playing a roll and Cage interfering in a main event type match could have made Gresham. Claudio isn’t really better off with the win, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the re-birth of ROH and that is best served with Claudio, Joe, and FTR as the faces of the company. 

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I think it's important to remember that Claudio hadn't signed when all this was being put together. It's entirely possible that at the time TK was putting these rosters together, Gresham was the best option. By the time this show came around, he clearly was not.

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Still playing catch up

  • I thought Garcia vs Yuta was really great. I loved them using their mentors' stuff. Regal's great but he needs to have shorter thoughts maybe? because important things happen and he's still going. There was maybe one too many pop-ups after a move and delayed selling but it's hard to dodge those things in 2022. Both guys have come so far in a year though.
  • Rush vs Dragon Lee was a lot of fun too. Rush could hold back his nature for about a minute but that was it. It was definitely more of a Rush match than a Dragon Lee match but that's fine. I spent so much time with Rush in 2013-2015 but I don't think I saw a lot of his later CMLL work (he was there until 2019? Really? Wow). Or his ROH work so it's like seeing an old friend. He's got his flaws but he's so very much himself. His personality and character comes through and it really defines everything he does. Just him tossing Dragon Lee around the ringside area is such great wrestling, right?
  • Mercedes vs Deeb was very good but the story of the match was the sheer emotion Deeb was channeling and how the crowd got behind her when that absolutely was not the heel/face role. Mercedes is good enough and tough enough and had fire in moments like when she finally hit the spider suplex and bridged up but man Deeb was just electric when she was channeling all of that energy in the middle of the ring. I've never seen her more intense or star-like. She's this calm, yoga persona and she was like Dr. Death or Goldberg or Brock in there, lightning flowing through her veins. I mean the match was good too, sure.
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This PPV was so good that I had to watch it twice to truly appreciate it. 

 

Where do FTR and The Briscoes rank in terms of all time tag teams and are either of their matches all time greats? For me the first one was a tiny bit better but I respect the hell out of both teams and everyone on this show.

 

Dax said it best: Goddamn I love professional wrestling. 

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3 hours ago, Shadow said:

This PPV was so good that I had to watch it twice to truly appreciate it. 

 

Where do FTR and The Briscoes rank in terms of all time tag teams and are either of their matches all time greats? For me the first one was a tiny bit better but I respect the hell out of both teams and everyone on this show.

 

Dax said it best: Goddamn I love professional wrestling. 

Two all time great tag teams and I'd say both bouts are all time greats, more so the first match.

Indeed Dax Harwood said it best.

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Aside from the main event, obviously, Rush vs Dragon Lee was the best stuff of the night. Once again, I was like wait a minute, this was a squash?!? @  Claudio v Gresham, like I was with him vs Light Saber Jr at Forbidden Door. I guess the deal is that since I've never seen him use the Ricola Bomb prior to his AEW, I just don't buy a single powerbomb as any kind of credible finish on a show (or a company) where people kick out of like 4 piledrivers in a row. Overall, it was very enjoyable. Briscoes were given a lot. The first fall with one Doomsday Device and kicking out of Big Rig, looking really strong in defeat.

Lot of late addition matches were actually on the pre-show, which is good. I watched that by myself earlier. I'm hoping The Embassy takes the 6-Man titles in the near future.

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