UFC 167: St-Pierre vs. Hendricks (11/16/2013) - Las Vegas, NV (MGM Grand Garden Arena)

[epwar]

Main event aside, can we finally get rid of Chael Sonnen in co-main/main event status.  He's just there to pick up his beating and check.  

[Zheroen]

 

 

On first viewing this did not seem Machida vs. Shogun 1 bad. More like Jones/Gus or Condit/Diaz.

I think it was worst then Jones/Gus cause Jones actually hurt Gus. George had some good jabs, and landed lots, but never came close to doing any damage to Hendricks.

But the rules don't say anything about 'damage'

 

Which we all agree is something of a substantial oversight by those who drafted the rules, right?

[LethalStriker]

Main event aside, can we finally get rid of Chael Sonnen in co-main/main event status.  He's just there to pick up his beating and check.  

 

He's going to coach TUF Brazil next so I assume that he'll end up headlining a Fight Night card with the finalists of that season also on the card.  He definitely should be done as a main event/co-main eventer of PPV or FOX type cards.

[The Natural]

Main event scorecard posted a few pages back:

 

[The Natural]

Fuck.

[glfpunk]

On first viewing this did not seem Machida vs. Shogun 1 bad. More like Jones/Gus or Condit/Diaz.

I think it was worst then Jones/Gus cause Jones actually hurt Gus. George had some good jabs, and landed lots, but never came close to doing any damage to Hendricks.

But the rules don't say anything about 'damage'

Which we all agree is something of a substantial oversight by those who drafted the rules, right?

No not at all. The problem is in the way the scoring is implemented. Hendricks won round 2 so you score it 10-9. Gsp won round 3 so you score it 10-9 for him. But the issue is that while those rounds are scored equal they certainly don't look equal. Judges go 10-9 for decisive rounds and even rounds that there seems to be no clear winner they still go 10-9 and not 10-10. They'll go 10-8 on occasion if a guy is really dominant and comes close to finishing someone and I mean really close. Even more rare is the 10-7 round where it seems the ref should have stepped in and stopped the fight a couple of times.

The point is that doesn't leave any room for those rounds like we saw tonight to be scored differently. If we are using 10 point must then what the hell are numbers 1-7 for? Because they sure don't get used. Utilizing the full range of numbers would allow a fight like Gsp/Hendricks to be scored differently and in the favor of Hendricks.

Like maybe the first round which was really close should actually be 10-10. And the second and fourth rounds that Hendricks won should be 10-7 or 10-8 in his favor and rounds three and five that Gsp won should be scored 10-9 in his favor. Just bringing in the more widespread use of 10-8 and 10-7 would alleviate issues like that. I don't even want to talk about 10-6 or 10-5 because peoples heads may explode at the very consideration of it.

[Elsalvajeloco]

For example, High absolutely grapplestyled on Lapsley in round one. Didn't get a single 10-8 round despite Lapsley having 0.01 seconds of offense in that round. You can't tell me that is equal to Bagautinov later in the night landing a few right hands against Elliott in the 3rd and then getting STO'd to the ground at the end of the fight.

[The Natural]

[The Natural]

Bonuses:

 

Fight of the Night: Georges St-Pierre vs. Johny Hendricks

Knockout of the Night: Tyron Woodley

Submission of the Night: Donald Cerrone

[TheVileOne]

From what I'm hearing, GSP's "issue" is not that big of a deal and White thinks they will be able to make an immediate rematch.

 

Not sure what is up with GSP, but if he's got all these personal issues, he probably should retire.  If it is an issue with dementia or something he should definitely hang it up.

 

But hey, way to go Robbie Lawler for beating MacDonald.  Hopefully that will be a big learning experience for MacDonald.

[Zheroen]

 

 

 

 

On first viewing this did not seem Machida vs. Shogun 1 bad. More like Jones/Gus or Condit/Diaz.

I think it was worst then Jones/Gus cause Jones actually hurt Gus. George had some good jabs, and landed lots, but never came close to doing any damage to Hendricks.

But the rules don't say anything about 'damage'

Which we all agree is something of a substantial oversight by those who drafted the rules, right?

No not at all. The problem is in the way the scoring is implemented. Hendricks won round 2 so you score it 10-9. Gsp won round 3 so you score it 10-9 for him. But the issue is that while those rounds are scored equal they certainly don't look equal. Judges go 10-9 for decisive rounds and even rounds that there seems to be no clear winner they still go 10-9 and not 10-10. They'll go 10-8 on occasion if a guy is really dominant and comes close to finishing someone and I mean really close. Even more rare is the 10-7 round where it seems the ref should have stepped in and stopped the fight a couple of times.

The point is that doesn't leave any room for those rounds like we saw tonight to be scored differently. If we are using 10 point must then what the hell are numbers 1-7 for? Because they sure don't get used. Utilizing the full range of numbers would allow a fight like Gsp/Hendricks to be scored differently and in the favor of Hendricks.

Like maybe the first round which was really close should actually be 10-10. And the second and fourth rounds that Hendricks won should be 10-7 or 10-8 in his favor and rounds three and five that Gsp won should be scored 10-9 in his favor. Just bringing in the more widespread use of 10-8 and 10-7 would alleviate issues like that. I don't even want to talk about 10-6 or 10-5 because peoples heads may explode at the very consideration of it.

 

I still think the criteria by which you are using to separate the 10-9 round 2 for Hendricks and the 10-9 round 3 for GSP is damage.  Octagon control being a more important factor in a full contact MMA fight is such a strange priority over actual damaged inflicted.  To me, it encourages lay and pray/wall and stall, since that "scores" more than actually attempting to finish your opponent.

[jumbojustice]

If it is an issue with dementia or something he should definitely hang it up.

 

Has there been some speculation that that may be the issue? I'm legitimately curious.

 

As for the result of the main event, I don't think it was bullshit at all. It's the nature of the scoring system, really. I think Hendricks had a more impressive overall fight and dealt more damage than GSP. However, in terms of scoring the rounds, it was very even. To me (though I'm no expert), Hendricks won rounds 1 and 4. GSP clearly won 3 and 5. Round 2 was a toss-up. So I think that 47-48 (for either guy) was justified. Since GSP is the champ, I probably would have leaned in his favour (I'm very biased, though). But yeah, it's hardly the first time we've seen this issue.

[TheVileOne]

 

If it is an issue with dementia or something he should definitely hang it up.

 

Has there been some speculation that that may be the issue? I'm legitimately curious.

 

As for the result of the main event, I don't think it was bullshit at all. It's the nature of the scoring system, really. I think Hendricks had a more impressive overall fight and dealt more damage than GSP. However, in terms of scoring the rounds, it was very even. To me (though I'm no expert), Hendricks won rounds 1 and 4. GSP clearly won 3 and 5. Round 2 was a toss-up. So I think that 47-48 (for either guy) was justified. Since GSP is the champ, I probably would have leaned in his favour (I'm very biased, though). But yeah, it's hardly the first time we've seen this issue.

 

 

Honestly, I have no idea.  He's said some weird stuff before about aliens and lost time.  I mean I hope he's OK and that's just a goofy quirk of his and not some type of damage from his fight career.  I was just kind of spit balling because he did come out for the press conference and he made it sound like he had this deeply personal issue he needs to get taken care.  It was very bizarre.  It was like he was trying to retire but just couldn't find the words.  

 

Ariel Helwani wrote on his Twitter that White is feeling better after having spoken with GSP.  Apparently GSP's "issue" whatever it is is not as bad as GSP thinks.  

[tigertooth]

Meltzer only reporter to have George winning.

 

Is that right?  Meltzer said, "I had GSP winning rounds one, three and five, as did most on press row, in fact, almost everyone."

 

[Zero]

 

Meltzer only reporter to have George winning.

 

Is that right?  Meltzer said, "I had GSP winning rounds one, three and five, as did most on press row, in fact, almost everyone."

 

 

Unless everybody was playing chicken shit at the press conference (total possibility). MMADecisions had all the reporters with Hendricks down the board. I don't know how Meltzer could say that. 

[hammerva]

 

Main event aside, can we finally get rid of Chael Sonnen in co-main/main event status.  He's just there to pick up his beating and check.  

 

He's going to coach TUF Brazil next so I assume that he'll end up headlining a Fight Night card with the finalists of that season also on the card.  He definitely should be done as a main event/co-main eventer of PPV or FOX type cards.

 

 

As long as he can steal pro wrestling promos from the 70's and 80's there will be people that thinks he deserves to be in big time matches.   The reality is that he deserves to be in matches with people as equally shot as Sonnen in Vandy

 

Just watched Dana interview after the fight and man talk about your overblown over-dramatic bullshit.   saying that Nevada has the worst commission in sports  and that he always worries about bringing his fights to Vegas and stuff.   This guy is either an incredible seller of the next fight or has lost his fucking mind again

[epwar]

He isn't wrong.  NSAC is recovering from the last Mayweather fiasco.  Too many major fights are ending in split decisions, which saves bookies/casinos tons of money.  That is majorly suspect and they are corrupt as hell.

[keith_h]

Watched it again this morning (without sound):

 

Round 1: This was the hard round... they each had a takedown, but GSP was generally busier and had the nice guillotine attempt... I still say it's a GSP round

Round 2: Hendricks round

Round 3: GSP round

Round 4: Hendricks round

Round 5: Easy GSP round

 

GSP 48-47, rounds 1,3,5

 

I think it's quite similar to the Jones/Gus fight in that people were just so SHOCKED to see someone having success against GSP (and Jones in that fight) that they overrated some of the stuff their opponents did. 

[glfpunk]

 

 

 

 

 

On first viewing this did not seem Machida vs. Shogun 1 bad. More like Jones/Gus or Condit/Diaz.

I think it was worst then Jones/Gus cause Jones actually hurt Gus. George had some good jabs, and landed lots, but never came close to doing any damage to Hendricks.

But the rules don't say anything about 'damage'

Which we all agree is something of a substantial oversight by those who drafted the rules, right?

No not at all. The problem is in the way the scoring is implemented. Hendricks won round 2 so you score it 10-9. Gsp won round 3 so you score it 10-9 for him. But the issue is that while those rounds are scored equal they certainly don't look equal. Judges go 10-9 for decisive rounds and even rounds that there seems to be no clear winner they still go 10-9 and not 10-10. They'll go 10-8 on occasion if a guy is really dominant and comes close to finishing someone and I mean really close. Even more rare is the 10-7 round where it seems the ref should have stepped in and stopped the fight a couple of times.

The point is that doesn't leave any room for those rounds like we saw tonight to be scored differently. If we are using 10 point must then what the hell are numbers 1-7 for? Because they sure don't get used. Utilizing the full range of numbers would allow a fight like Gsp/Hendricks to be scored differently and in the favor of Hendricks.

Like maybe the first round which was really close should actually be 10-10. And the second and fourth rounds that Hendricks won should be 10-7 or 10-8 in his favor and rounds three and five that Gsp won should be scored 10-9 in his favor. Just bringing in the more widespread use of 10-8 and 10-7 would alleviate issues like that. I don't even want to talk about 10-6 or 10-5 because peoples heads may explode at the very consideration of it.

 

I still think the criteria by which you are using to separate the 10-9 round 2 for Hendricks and the 10-9 round 3 for GSP is damage.  Octagon control being a more important factor in a full contact MMA fight is such a strange priority over actual damaged inflicted.  To me, it encourages lay and pray/wall and stall, since that "scores" more than actually attempting to finish your opponent.

 

 

 

I guess it depends on what you're considering damage.  If you're talking about cuts or bruises then no I don't think that should hold any weight.  I mean, some guys have so much scar tissue they might as well start bleeding as they walk to the cage.  And it's hard to get into an interpretation of how you think a strike effected a fighter if he didn't show signs of being effected.  So I think the best thing is to just score the clean strike in that case.  I know there have been a lot of times I've been watching a fight  and in an exchange it's looked like a guy blasted the hell out of the other fighter but he doesn't react much and then I see a replay and it turns out the strike didn't really land as clean as I thought.  Trying to score by "oh that looked like it hurt" just gets really muddy in my opinion.   

[glfpunk]

Watched it again this morning (without sound):

 

Round 1: This was the hard round... they each had a takedown, but GSP was generally busier and had the nice guillotine attempt... I still say it's a GSP round

Round 2: Hendricks round

Round 3: GSP round

Round 4: Hendricks round

Round 5: Easy GSP round

 

GSP 48-47, rounds 1,3,5

 

I think it's quite similar to the Jones/Gus fight in that people were just so SHOCKED to see someone having success against GSP (and Jones in that fight) that they overrated some of the stuff their opponents did. 

 

That's the exact way I saw it although I wouldn't really argue if someone gave round 1 to Johny. 

[Zheroen]

 

 

 

 

 

 

On first viewing this did not seem Machida vs. Shogun 1 bad. More like Jones/Gus or Condit/Diaz.

I think it was worst then Jones/Gus cause Jones actually hurt Gus. George had some good jabs, and landed lots, but never came close to doing any damage to Hendricks.

But the rules don't say anything about 'damage'

Which we all agree is something of a substantial oversight by those who drafted the rules, right?

No not at all. The problem is in the way the scoring is implemented. Hendricks won round 2 so you score it 10-9. Gsp won round 3 so you score it 10-9 for him. But the issue is that while those rounds are scored equal they certainly don't look equal. Judges go 10-9 for decisive rounds and even rounds that there seems to be no clear winner they still go 10-9 and not 10-10. They'll go 10-8 on occasion if a guy is really dominant and comes close to finishing someone and I mean really close. Even more rare is the 10-7 round where it seems the ref should have stepped in and stopped the fight a couple of times.

The point is that doesn't leave any room for those rounds like we saw tonight to be scored differently. If we are using 10 point must then what the hell are numbers 1-7 for? Because they sure don't get used. Utilizing the full range of numbers would allow a fight like Gsp/Hendricks to be scored differently and in the favor of Hendricks.

Like maybe the first round which was really close should actually be 10-10. And the second and fourth rounds that Hendricks won should be 10-7 or 10-8 in his favor and rounds three and five that Gsp won should be scored 10-9 in his favor. Just bringing in the more widespread use of 10-8 and 10-7 would alleviate issues like that. I don't even want to talk about 10-6 or 10-5 because peoples heads may explode at the very consideration of it.

 

I still think the criteria by which you are using to separate the 10-9 round 2 for Hendricks and the 10-9 round 3 for GSP is damage.  Octagon control being a more important factor in a full contact MMA fight is such a strange priority over actual damaged inflicted.  To me, it encourages lay and pray/wall and stall, since that "scores" more than actually attempting to finish your opponent.

 

 

 

I guess it depends on what you're considering damage.  If you're talking about cuts or bruises then no I don't think that should hold any weight.  I mean, some guys have so much scar tissue they might as well start bleeding as they walk to the cage.  And it's hard to get into an interpretation of how you think a strike effected a fighter if he didn't show signs of being effected.  So I think the best thing is to just score the clean strike in that case.  I know there have been a lot of times I've been watching a fight  and in an exchange it's looked like a guy blasted the hell out of the other fighter but he doesn't react much and then I see a replay and it turns out the strike didn't really land as clean as I thought.  Trying to score by "oh that looked like it hurt" just gets really muddy in my opinion.   

 

I actually believe we're on the same wavelength, here.  I'm talking about favoring significant strikes and submissions that cause visible duress/damage (i.e. staggering an opponent with a strike, or even application of a submission not resulting in a tap that leaves the other fighter with a notable indicator that it had an effect).  One pertinent example that always comes to mind of the latter is when Rafael Dos Anjos had caught Tyson Griffin in a deep knee compressor for a good amount of time in the first round, and Griffin seemed to limp for the remainder of the fight, but yet because Griffin didn't tap, that seemed to have zero bearing in the round being scored for Dos Anjos.  Griffin won the fight 30-27.

[tigertooth]

 

 

If it is an issue with dementia or something he should definitely hang it up.

 

Has there been some speculation that that may be the issue? I'm legitimately curious.

 

 

Honestly, I have no idea.  He's said some weird stuff before about aliens and lost time.  I mean I hope he's OK and that's just a goofy quirk of his and not some type of damage from his fight career.  I was just kind of spit balling because he did come out for the press conference and he made it sound like he had this deeply personal issue he needs to get taken care.  It was very bizarre.  It was like he was trying to retire but just couldn't find the words.  

 

To me, the scariest thing GSP said post-fight was:

 

"I lost my memory a little bit during the fight," St-Pierre said. "I couldn't see. He really messed me up.

 

 

Hard to say exactly what he means about his memory, but I don't think TheVileOne's speculation is unwarranted.

[Ace]

Fuck.

 

I'd heard that Georges wasn't at the Press Conference and went to the hospital. Was that not the case?

[epwar]

He showed up toward the end, which is where that picture is from.

[Craig H]

Yeah, right when it started Dana said Georges wouldn't be there because he went to the hospital. I'm surprised he made it back. Honestly, after that ass kicking, I would retire too. GSP displayed a tremendous chin and a lot of heart. Johny hit him with a ton and GSP never stopped.