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Raw is ReLEEf - 8/2/2021


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1 hour ago, Iron Moose said:

For a company that likes putting smiles on faces, it sure was dippy to job out Ali.

 

4 minutes ago, Craig H said:

It's WWE. The hometown guy almost always jobs.

 

Both of these things can be true at the same time.

 

To extend on what @NoFistsJustFlipssaid, I'll add that a rhythm of seeing hometown favorites lose, extinguishing their crowds, probably has a downstream effect of muting the enthusiasm of future crowds. Besides, it's not like the story of Ali and Mansoor desperately needed *this* loss, or set this loss up to matter more than any other.

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18 minutes ago, Craig H said:

It's WWE. The hometown guy almost always jobs.

The hometown guy wins thing is an indy tradition that is almost universally derided in the WWE.   I have seen a Hardy lose in a WWE ring in Charlotte, NC or Greensboro, NC more times than I can count.

Edited by J.T.
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I was ok with Ali losing. He didn't take the pinfall, and Ali saving Mansoor after losing their match is kind of an important step for their partnership/friendship.

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This kind of struck me last night. 

In all of Raw here were the participants that aren't your main, headliner or midcard headliner types that we well know. This is despite talent or whatever.

Spoiler

Veer

Shanky

Mace

T-Bar

Mansoor

Ali

Doudrop

Tamina has been around forever but still

Damien Priest

Ricochet

Omos

Kross

Lee

Reggie

Tozawa

That's well over half the lineup for a whole episode of Raw, which is the main brand. 

Perhaps Vince really does think he can steer this ship with the smallest amount of talent that he personally cares about. 

Edited by Curt McGirt
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1 hour ago, Eivion said:

I was ok with Ali losing. He didn't take the pinfall, and Ali saving Mansoor after losing their match is kind of an important step for their partnership/friendship.

Counterpoint, do that story beat next week. Let Ali smash the jobbers and look like world beater in Chicago. Then they can go back to their tired singles dudes reluctantly form a team story for the 30,000th time next week.

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25 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Counterpoint, do that story beat next week. Let Ali smash the jobbers and look like world beater in Chicago. Then they can go back to their tired singles dudes reluctantly form a team story for the 30,000th time next week.

Its more likely that he doesn't appear at all then if they aren't pushing his story with Mansoor.

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6 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Its more likely that he doesn't appear at all then if they aren't pushing his story with Mansoor.

Again counterpoint here but... what?

Are you saying the way WWE works is at this juncture of the story that it's 100% written in stone that Ali & Mansoor HAVE TO lose? Like, they can't just get one more win this week? You can't do two weeks of them surprised they gel before you make them eat a loss and have that friction and doubt? Do you see how weird that sounds? WWE write the stories. It's not like they're handed a script by some Hollywood studio and have to follow that script to the letter. How hard is it to just write the story for the guy to look strong in front of his hometown? Still do the story you want to do. Just craft it to not make home town people look like geeks every single time every single one of them is in their hometown.

100% of the time hometown performers look like shit in their hometown. I'm just at a loss for how that is supposed to inspire performer loyalty from an audience for their guy.

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4 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Are you saying the way WWE works is at this juncture of the story that it's 100% written in stone that Ali & Mansoor HAVE TO lose? Like, they can't just get one more win this week? You can't do two weeks of them surprised they gel before you make them eat a loss and have that friction and doubt? Do you see how weird that sounds? WWE write the stories. It's not like they're handed a script by some Hollywood studio and have to follow that script to the letter. How hard is it to just write the story for the guy to look strong in front of his hometown? Still do the story you want to do. Just craft it to not make home town people look like geeks every single time every single one of them is in their hometown.

I just said its more likely they don't use him. I didn't say it was a good idea. Will say the friction and doubt was already there. Its been there since Mansoor debuted and Ali has been doing some weird tough love mentorship. This was basically a turning point with Ali truly sticking his neck out to help him in a way he never would have before.

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You're not giving a straight answer.

Why are you of the belief that he's only likely to be used if he had to lose in Chicago? Why is it more likely he sits in catering than gets a win here? You said it not me. Just trying to follow your logic. The way WWE creative works is not this story has ten steps and has to be done in that specific order. WWE creative is well we have an idea of where we want this to lead but we just throw shit at the wall to get there. And that's only until Vince tears up the script and they re-write whatever he wants. So why would it be so difficult to pencil in guys to win in their hometown? Why are you saying not using them at all is the WWE preference vs a hometown win?

You're making a big leap to get to your generalization and I don't follow the steps you're taking to assume that.

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14 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

That's well over half the lineup for a whole episode of Raw, which is the main brand. 

Except RAW is the main brand in name only. SmackDown has Roman, Bianca, Sasha, Rey, Rollins, Edge, Big E, Usos, Street Profits and a trio of new women in Shotzi/Tegan/Toni. Also, the stronger commentary team.

Some of this will change with any upcoming draft, of course. USA isn't going to allow their cupboards to be this bare for much longer. But Roman for sure will stay on SD. And WWE seems committed to giving the blue brand a good presentation.

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10 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

You're not giving a straight answer.

Why are you of the belief that he's only likely to be used if he had to lose in Chicago? Why is it more likely he sits in catering than gets a win here? You said it not me. Just trying to follow your logic. The way WWE creative works is not this story has ten steps and has to be done in that specific order. WWE creative is well we have an idea of where we want this to lead but we just throw shit at the wall to get there. And that's only until Vince tears up the script and they re-write whatever he wants. So why would it be so difficult to pencil in guys to win in their hometown? Why are you saying not using them at all is the WWE preference vs a hometown win?

You're making a big leap to get to your generalization and I don't follow the steps you're taking to assume that.

I assume he would lose in his hometown because its what is normally done, and Ali isn't looked at high enough to break that norm. Its more likely they just don't use a person in Ali's position than it is they give him the hometown victory. Ali was on this show for one reason, to push his and Mansoor's story further. If they weren't doing that then its more likely they don't appear, at least not on Raw.

I don't think I'm making any big leap in logic based on what we have seen in the past from WWE. I think you just dislike it which is fine. There are better ways. You should already know by this point though that they aren't likely to happen which makes me wonder why you are providing me with counterpoints. Is it because I didn't hate it outright like yourself and others?

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They sold put Chicago, one of the most rabid/smarkiest wrestling cities in the world, and they gave them Kross vs Lee (rematch from last week), Mansoor/Ali vs Tbar/Mace (rematch from last week), Nikki vs Charlotte (rematch from last week but with a stip).

They're so creatively spent, they're just running the same matches with 50/50 booking lol

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25 minutes ago, Eivion said:

I assume he would lose in his hometown because its what is normally done, and Ali isn't looked at high enough to break that norm. Its more likely they just don't use a person in Ali's position than it is they give him the hometown victory. Ali was on this show for one reason, to push his and Mansoor's story further. If they weren't doing that then its more likely they don't appear, at least not on Raw.

I don't think I'm making any big leap in logic based on what we have seen in the past from WWE. I think you just dislike it which is fine. There are better ways. You should already know by this point though that they aren't likely to happen which makes me wonder why you are providing me with counterpoints. Is it because I didn't hate it outright like yourself and others?

So his storyline is ONLY losing at this point? That's where my disconnect is. You're making this giant jump in logic that his story can only progress with a loss and that's just not true. You can certainly progress this exact same story without booking that loss. That's my hangup. That's my confusion. You're saying there are two options. A loss or catering. That's not true, there's a third option. A win. Then next week run the exact same thing they did tonight, only not from Chicago. Whether you personally agree or disagree if that's a good idea is moot. You're posting as if it's not possible. And it is.

 

 

4 minutes ago, HumanChessgame said:

You guys are assuming the powers that be actually know what wrestlers' hometowns are. Especially considering that's something so regularly kayfabed.

Fair point. But they *should* know. They have that little internal sheet that lists the location of the week, what the last event held there was, what it drew, what the main event was, who is baby, who is heel, who is injured, who is inactive. Just add a column for dude who are billed from this city. Would take whoever compiles those internals an extra 10 seconds. So while you are right, that's not a good excuse for them in my opinion.

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5 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

So his storyline is ONLY losing at this point? That's where my disconnect is. You're making this giant jump in logic that his story can only progress with a loss and that's just not true. You can certainly progress this exact same story without booking that loss. That's my hangup. That's my confusion. You're saying there are two options. A loss or catering. That's not true, there's a third option. A win. Then next week run the exact same thing they did tonight, only not from Chicago. Whether you personally agree or disagree if that's a good idea is moot. You're posting as if it's not possible. And it is.

I never said nor implied there was no other way to progress it. My implication was that WWE wasn't likely to go with any other way due to how they generally treat people when they go to their hometowns.

There is no reason to be confused here. it just feels like you are ignoring what I have actually been saying. 

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43 minutes ago, Infinit said:

They sold put Chicago, one of the most rabid/smarkiest wrestling cities in the world, and they gave them Kross vs Lee (rematch from last week), Mansoor/Ali vs Tbar/Mace (rematch from last week), Nikki vs Charlotte (rematch from last week but with a stip).

They're so creatively spent, they're just running the same matches with 50/50 booking lol

Not only that they fucking rehashed priest and miz and Morrison 

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This is only tangentially related to this discussion but I think Mace and T-Bar have kinda gelled into a pretty okay midcard big guy tag team. They have good aggression and really stay on top of their opponents while they are on offense, I worry they are kinda screwed because of how Retribution went but I think in-ring they are pretty okay now.

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