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How much of a draw a wrestler is, or was, should only matter to the promoters who hire them. If you like a painting by Paul Klee that sells for a million dollars, but you think a Damien Hirst Dot Painting that sells for 12 million is rubbish, does that mean you are objectively wrong, and the Hirst is better? No, because Art is Subjective.

And Wrestling is Art, obviously.

Otherwise you're falling into the Thibs argument where I can list the top ten selling singles of the year, tell him they're his personal favourite songs of the year, and he gets no say in the matter. Hi Thibs! Your movie of the year is Bad Boys For Life, BTW.

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The importance of drawing power is a good subject for debate. Wrestling may be an Art but it is also a business. There are no real wrestling critics like there is a vocation/industry of art critics, movie critics, theater critics, etc. The ticket buyers are one of the deciders for the greatness of a worker. Wrestlers are not created, produced or promoted like a (money-making) movie is, nor like a singular artwork (painting, sculpture, so on), nor like a mass produced book or long-running play. The promoter decides to give a wrestler a push, under the creativity of a booker - does this wrestler have the charisma and ability to draw? It is hard to be on top, and being able to draw is part of a great wrestler's skill set. You can be a brilliant worker and unable to draw (or never got the chance) but to earn your place on top is very important to qualify for HOF status - or at least for this one. Meltzer's Hall, Meltzer's rules...

- RAF

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11 hours ago, zendragon said:

Do people put to much emphasis on drawing power?  You wouldn't say Michael Bay is a better filmmaker than Bergman of Kurosawa just because he did bigger box office

My biggest is match quality.

4 hours ago, username said:

Ishii has some swell matches but I don't think there is any argument for him being a hall of famer barring some surprising late career twists and turns. Unless the argument is that "this era of NJPW is so tremendous we are gonna just put everyone in" his accomplishments don't really exist and I don't know that there is any evidence of him being a draw in the least. 

 

Like... Samoa Joe isn't in and has little support. Taue isn't either and was a higher ranked member of a different golden age and was in quite possibly the match of the decade in the 90s. Those two are widely considered to be below the hall of fame cut-off (Taue gets a bum rap IMO) and both have much stronger arguments in their favor than Ishii. I still think all three of them own, but I don't think that's really enough to be a hall of famer.

Jun Akiyama finally got in this time. Akira Taue was part of the Four Pillars of Heaven with Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa and Toshiaki Kawada. The latter three are rightly in and I hope Taue joins them.

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I personally can't argue against Omega being in a wrestling Hall of Fame. In 2017, I thought he was bar none the best wrestler on the planet. 

I think my problem is more the arguments against Sting being kept out of it for so long being rather dubious, and Omega gets in so quickly and I feel it's largely, solely based on match quality. 

Even pre-TNA, Sting had a career and body of work that was worthy of a Hall of Fame induction.

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6 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

I personally can't argue against Omega being in a wrestling Hall of Fame. In 2017, I thought he was bar none the best wrestler on the planet. 

I think my problem is more the arguments against Sting being kept out of it for so long being rather dubious, and Omega gets in so quickly and I feel it's largely, solely based on match quality. 

Even pre-TNA, Sting had a career and body of work that was worthy of a Hall of Fame induction.

I'm a Sting fanboy and I have to say that he is one of the weakest selections in the HOF, (right there with Jackie Fargo). No one had the keys to the kingdom handed to them more often than Sting and failed to do much of anything. He obviously did not draw money, he could pop a crowd, but not get them to buy tickets for next week's show. If he hadn't had Ric Flair and the Horsemen to play off of, no one would care about his career.

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My second favourite TNA review was from one version of this board. I don't remember who said it, or their exact wording, but it was to the effect of this: "This episode sucked. Sting wasn't hitting people with a bat. Not a draw, my ass."

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4 hours ago, OSJ said:

I'm a Sting fanboy and I have to say that he is one of the weakest selections in the HOF, (right there with Jackie Fargo). No one had the keys to the kingdom handed to them more often than Sting and failed to do much of anything. He obviously did not draw money, he could pop a crowd, but not get them to buy tickets for next week's show. If he hadn't had Ric Flair and the Horsemen to play off of, no one would care about his career.

Respectfully, OSJ, I'd say Sting was a fairly consistent performer through some of WCW's toughest periods and was basically the face of the company when many other top stars were constantly jumping ship. Additionally, the fact that his career managed to survive so much bad booking is a testament to his star power and viability between RoboCop, the Black Scorpion, Bill Watts, Shockmaster, Jake Roberts, and plenty of other nonsense.

There's no Vader legend without Sting. Not to mention Great Muta having crossover success in the US and forging a significant rivalry with Sting. Even Sting and Mick Foley did great work together, and Mick Foley said his matches with Sting were some of his favorites in his first book. So to say no one would care about Sting without Ric Flair/Horsemen is a bit of a misnomer to me.

Also if Sting wasn't a draw, does that mean Vader was never a draw outside of Japan? Vader had a hot start in WWF in 1996 and then his career took a nosedive after that. 

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1 minute ago, TheVileOne said:

Respectfully, OSJ, I'd say Sting was a fairly consistent performer through some of WCW's toughest periods and was basically the face of the company when many other top stars were constantly jumping ship. Additionally, the fact that his career managed to survive so much bad booking is a testament to his star power and viability between RoboCop, the Black Scorpion, Bill Watts, Shockmaster, Jake Roberts, and plenty of other nonsense.

There's no Vader legend without Sting. Not to mention Great Muta having crossover success in the US and forging a significant rivalry with Sting. Even Sting and Mick Foley did great work together, and Mick Foley said his matches with Sting were some of his favorites in his first book. So to say no one would care about Sting without Ric Flair/Horsemen is a bit of a misnomer to me.

You're leaving out one major thing... Show me how business picked up when Sting was at the top of the card. Like I said, no one has failed harder when given the top push than Sting. I'll stand by what I said, he could pop a crowd like nobody's business, but he couldn't get the marks to buy a ticket for next week's show. That's a big problem.

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1 minute ago, OSJ said:

You're leaving out one major thing... Show me how business picked up when Sting was at the top of the card. Like I said, no one has failed harder when given the top push than Sting. I'll stand by what I said, he could pop a crowd like nobody's business, but he couldn't get the marks to buy a ticket for next week's show. That's a big problem.

1996-1997 I'd say when the nWo feud was getting under way and he became Crow Sting. 

We can definitely nitpick and argue about the results, but you can't argue that business was doing bad when they were building up his title match with Hogan. 

Also in terms of pure business, his Clash of the Champions I world title match with Ric Flair opposite WrestleMania IV did a huge 5.6 rating. Yeah he was in there with Ric Flair, but that was a huge opportunity and chance for him and he passed with flying colors. At the time, Lex Luger was being groomed as the next big face and world champion, and Sting pretty much single handedly convinced Ric Flair that Sting should be the next top babyface instead.

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Drawing power matters because there wouldn't be a business if nobody drew.  But it should not be the only consideration.  Arn Anderson was never a great draw but he was a top notch in-ring worker and promo guy that was great at getting those who did draw over.  Sabu wasn't a great draw,but he greatly influenced the industry and was an innovator.  

I do think Omega, if he retired tomorrow, would probably be HoF worthy based on his run in Japan.  Particularly considering that wrestlers just don't have the long runs at the top anymore.  But it takes away the attention from others who didn't have the advantage of working while the WON HoF was running. but absolutely deserve to be in the HoF.

 

 

 

HoC

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19 hours ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

The importance of drawing power is a good subject for debate. Wrestling may be an Art but it is also a business. There are no real wrestling critics like there is a vocation/industry of art critics, movie critics, theater critics, etc. The ticket buyers are one of the deciders for the greatness of a worker. Wrestlers are not created, produced or promoted like a (money-making) movie is, nor like a singular artwork (painting, sculpture, so on), nor like a mass produced book or long-running play. The promoter decides to give a wrestler a push, under the creativity of a booker - does this wrestler have the charisma and ability to draw? It is hard to be on top, and being able to draw is part of a great wrestler's skill set. You can be a brilliant worker and unable to draw (or never got the chance) but to earn your place on top is very important to qualify for HOF status - or at least for this one. Meltzer's Hall, Meltzer's rules...

- RAF

I agree with this, but I have an issue with saying guys like Ultimo Dragon and Arn Anderson don't deserve induction only because they weren't a main event level draw. as if that wipes away all other criteria. I also feel that strong mid card programs (like WCW cruiserweights) can help the overall business but people sometimes seem to want to only focus on who's on top.

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2 hours ago, zendragon said:

I agree with this, but I have an issue with saying guys like Ultimo Dragon and Arn Anderson don't deserve induction only because they weren't a main event level draw. as if that wipes away all other criteria. I also feel that strong mid card programs (like WCW cruiserweights) can help the overall business but people sometimes seem to want to only focus on who's on top.

Very true. Drawing power, putting asses in seats and making $$$ - taken together- is just one consideration. A fed with just "top guys" would be unbookable; you need all kinds of hands in a roster. AA and UDragon are great examples of HoF workers - how about Steven/William Regal? A HoF that spans decades has to take into consideration the guys that could be champ in a territory but just strong (but useful and necessary and draws) mid-carders in a big federation but they made everyone look credible and filled their spot. Shit, I would put in Mike Jackson or Tinker Todd or Dean Malenko or in my HoF before some of the big vote-getters in Meltzer's. 

- RAF

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13 hours ago, Hustler of Culture said:

Drawing power matters because there wouldn't be a business if nobody drew.  But it should not be the only consideration.  Arn Anderson was never a great draw but he was a top notch in-ring worker and promo guy that was great at getting those who did draw over.  Sabu wasn't a great draw,but he greatly influenced the industry and was an innovator.  

I do think Omega, if he retired tomorrow, would probably be HoF worthy based on his run in Japan.  Particularly considering that wrestlers just don't have the long runs at the top anymore.  But it takes away the attention from others who didn't have the advantage of working while the WON HoF was running. but absolutely deserve to be in the HoF.

 

 

 

HoC

Generally, I agree. Arn Anderson was never really a true main eventer, but he was seen was one of the best pure workers in the business and a "carpenter." You need guys who can fill out and round out the midcards as well. Plus, Arn was the longtime Enforcer of the Horsemen, which was one of the hottest acts of the 1980s. He even did OK in WWF for the brief time he was there.

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Arn Anderson was the guy that got me back into wrestling after ignoring it for a few years. We were at the bar playing darts and wrestling was on the TV. This was at the height of VKM's cartoon-nonsense, and here was this guy in simple trunks and with no bullshit having a great squash match with some jobber, (might have been Snake Brown or a Mulkey, I don't recall), anyway, everything from the way he worked a body part to his facial expressions was all I needed to make me a fan for life. AA is a no-brainer when it comes to the HOF.

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7 hours ago, Matt D said:

Arm would be very quick to dispute that he and Tully weren’t draws, to the point that he considers them leaving a big part of JCP’s downfall. You’re free to argue with him.

 

Arn has stated that he wasn't a main eventer but that he could have pressed the booking committee more to become a main eventer.  

Tully was a draw.  He was arguably the most important Horseman because he kept the heel heat on the Horsemen.  Fans would cheer Flair and Arn, but they really didn't cheer Tully.  And he served as Flair's role when Flair was defending the belt somewhere else.  Tully was the guy that people wanted to see Magnum and Dusty beat up the most.

According to Cornette's record keeping, the MX feud with Arn & Tully was pulling in big houses and was looking to grow even further and then Arn & Tully left.  However I don't see Arn & Tully leaving causing JCP's downfall.  They were taking on too much money with the second private plane, they got too far away from their business model that worked and the Dusty finish...which did initially work...got overplayed and turned fans off.  

 

But the biggest part for JCP's downfall was really the finances.  Their accounting and finance department was a nickel & dime operation.  That's where Vince always had the advantage over other promoters, he was able to take profits and invest his earnings well enough to plan for disaster but also re-invest in the WWF/WWE.

 

 

 

HoC

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