The WON HOF THREAD

[The Natural]

 

[The Natural]

Those who went up and down in the WON HOF 2021.

Edited January 16, 2022 by The Natural

[Happ Hazzard]

Arn and Tully with JJ being on the ballot makes no sense at all. They should all be on the ballot as singles.

[odessasteps]

6 hours ago, Happ Hazzard said:

Arn and Tully with JJ being on the ballot makes no sense at all. They should all be on the ballot as singles.

I believe they were and didn’t elected. 

[Happ Hazzard]

15 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I believe they were and didn’t elected. 

I can't see there's a better case for them to go in as a trio since (in theory, anyway) voters can only take into account the brief run they had together in JCP from early 87 to September '88. You can't take the Brain Busters' WWF run into account since JJ wasn't managing them, and obviously you can't take any of Tully and Arn's singles careers, their tag teams with other partners, or any of JJ's decades long career as both a wrestler and a manager of other guys.

They should all go back on the ballot as singles. Enough of their contemporaries have gone in now that it's freed up votes to get them in. 

[odessasteps]

Yeah, I've said they were way too briefly a team to warrant HOF status. Although tag tenure is tricky, since most teams are not together like the RnR. 

[sabremike]

The fact that Yano has not been inducted with 100% of the vote is an unforgivable crime against humanity.

[The Natural]

 

[RIPPA]

Changes for next year

# of votes will increase but Dave isn't sure the exact number (he threw out as 15 for wrestlers, 5 non-wrestlers)

He definitely will limit the number of wrestlers in each category you can vote for (probably 5) since Dave said (and he apparently had to have people point this out to him) that the current system "punishes" people who vote in all the categories (since technically if you took all of your 10 votes and voted nothing but say Lucha - that has much more of an impact than if you vote for like 2 people in each category)

[odessasteps]

It feels like there is always some way to “manipulate” voting to help one group or another. Dave plugs a hole and another one is found. 
 

with the Lucha logjam finally cleared on the last few years, I do wonder if Mistico will finally get in next year. 
 

[Noah Mark]

I still cant believe that  Wild Bull Curry isnt in. Curry was doing hardcore matches before they even called it hardcore.  He has alot longevity in the business as well.  He started on the carnival circuit and started wrestling in the early 1930s.  He started for Paul Bowser's AWA territory in Boston.  He was also a huge name not only in New England but also Houston and Detroit.

 

I'd also would have liked to see Rick Martel go in.  Martel was a star everywhere he went.  He was a former AWA champion and was a draw as champion.  He is a former Pacific Northwest Champion and 2x WWF tag team champion with Tony Garea and Tito Santana.

[RIPPA]

Couple of notes about this year's voting and changes to the voting for next year (Warning large block of Dave speak)

Spoiler

A few notes on the Hall of Fame balloting. In the print edition we didn’t list James Melby, the top American magazine reporter of his era as well as the program producer for a number of territories and one of the top historians in wrestling history. He did well, got 110 votes, which was good for 38 percent in his category, up from 23 percent last year.

Jim Crockett Jr.’s one year jump of 46 percent, from 36 percent to 82 percent is the third largest in history. Tied for first with 47 percent annual jumps were El Satanico in 2001 and Dr. Alfonso Morales in 2012. Los Brazos’ jump of 33 percent was the sixth largest jump in history.

It was also the largest balloting in our history. Voters for modern U.S. and Canadian stars were up 32.9 percent from last year, but the category was also log jammed with Sgt. Slaughter, The Steiners, Ted Turner, Paul Orndorff, C.M. Punk, Junkyard Dog, Edge, Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson, Randy Orton, the Hardys and others so that nobody got in.

Ballots for U.S. and Canadian historical were identical to last year. Voters for Japan were up 35.9 percent from last year which I believe is largely the Okada effect and I also believe won’t be the case next year. Mexico voters were down 5.1 percent which I believe is because it was the ballot with the least number of strong candidates we’ve ever had from Mexico. The rest of the world was up 1.9 percent.

Based on a lot of feedback this past week and just a common sense look at a ballot that was designed for 50 people last year topped 100, next year we’ll go up to 15 wrestlers/candidates that can be voted on. I was going to limit it to five maximum in each category and in the long run that sounds to me like the fair rule. However, with the addition of the new tag teams next year, several of whom should be no-brainers and most of which are in the historical section, it is unfair to the historical section next year to have a five vote limit in that category. I’d like this to be a one-year deal and am still debating just too have it a seven vote per category limit that would eventually go to five under a more normal ballot, or just a seven vote limit for the historical section, which to me is the most fair for a one year period and then go back to five, or seven in every section to make the sections equal but with the knowledge it’s going to revert to five. In writing this it sounds weird but I’ve put a lot of thought into what is fair for a voter and the influx of the tag teams with a five vote limit in that section is simply unfair to that section in 2022. It would not be unfair in a year or two.

The number of people in the non-wrestler category will remain at five. That way people who vote in multiple categories aren’t punished for doing research on much of the entire world as compared to those who only vote in one or two categories.

The reality is that the number of candidates on the ballot increased greatly in 2020 and while we still had people voted in the last two years, that isn’t the point. The ten ballot number comes from baseball which has 25-35 candidates each year, not nearly 80 for wrestlers (the rest are non-wrestlers) and also wrestling is very different with the worldwide aspect as well as just one league or country. Plus, with the addition of a number of tag teams, several of whom should go in, the ten ballot spot simply isn’t fair to the number of candidates any longer.

Before when it came to tag teams, the idea was if one person on the team was in, we could put the other on the ballot and see if they got in. Obviously that’s being changed next year with teams like Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue, Jack & Jerry Brisco, Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez, Ricky Steamboat & Jay Youngblood and in addition Dynamite Kid & Davey Boy Smith. In each case the first member of the team is in, but the second isn’t. All of the second members except Youngblood had been on the ballot in the past and didn’t get the votes. We are not going to add teams like Giant Baba & Jumbo Tsuruta, The Funks, Ray Stevens & Nick Bockwinkel, Stevens & Pat Patterson, Baba & Inoki, Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody, Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu, Gordy & Steve Williams, Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi, Crusher & Bruiser or other no-brainer teams where both members are already in.

Because several have suggested it and also because the team of Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan have never gotten a lot of traction, they will be listed as singles wrestlers next year. Although Kojima was one of the best workers in the world and has some real credentials as holding the Triple Crown and IWGP title at the same time, we will see how he does on his own.

The other obvious flaw is with history. My feeling is that anyone whose fame is pre-1970 outside North America and pre-1960 in North America will have an almost impossible time getting voted in.

Now you can argue that from a wrestler standpoint, virtually everyone that should be in from North America past the modern guys is in, and you could say the same with even more surety for Japan.

There are a few promoters, Morris Sigel being one, and he’s on the ballot and not getting a lot of votes, who almost surely should be in. There are a few others like Lou Daro and Johnny Doyle as well who have strong cases. Bobby Bruns and Jose Tarres’ weak showing also indicates that there is simply a reality that people aren’t going to vote for historical figures they don’t know about. Bruns and Sigel probably should have gone in during 1996. Tarres was somebody I had barely heard of but would not have considered because of a lack of knowledge of his credentials, but after reading the Phil Lions work on him, to me, he’s a no-brainer.

The Veterans Committee idea in baseball to me just lowered the bar and caused older eras to be flooded with people in as compared to newer eras.

But the idea of something where we add one person each year who is probably best served not on the ballot, which we did most years, is something we probably should do for maybe another several years and then perhaps after that if needed, rather than have them put on the ballot which has been the experiment the past few years. So there will end up being some sort of committee for a few years. The idea will be to induct one person each year until the feeling is the job is complete.

This will not be like baseball where it is deemed for 15 plus years somebody like, say Wilbur Snyder, who is a borderline case who came close in many elections but eventually didn’t get in, will get another shot. That’s the weakness of the Veterans Committee that I’m trying to avoid.

I’m not saying there will be no North American wrestlers up for picks, but there may not be and it won’t be anyone who went through the regular balloting process and didn’t make it. It will likely be foreign wrestlers from the past who simply won’t get their due on the regular ballot because they were from so many years ago, as well as a few U.S. promoters and perhaps foreign promoters.

Tarres, Sigel, L’Ange Blanc and Bruns would be best served off the balloting for that reason. I could say the same for George Kidd but he did get solid support and did wrestle into the mid-70s so he’ll remain. The idea of putting candidates like that on the ballot is to encourage research on those people, and while that does happen, it’s simply not going to happen at the level where they are going to get in the Hall of Fame no matter their credentials..

Nothing can ever be fucking simple for Dave

[odessasteps]

And Dave still didn't list Roy Welch as one of the promoter omissions. 

[The Natural]

The WON HOF 2022 inductees are...

Spoiler

Glad Akira Taue finally gets in. I correctly predicted Tetsuya Naito and Kota Ibushi would at some point. Big jump for Naito from 38% last year to 65% here.

 

[The Natural]

Spoiler

 

[The Natural]

Spoiler

 

 

[The Natural]

@RIPPA: Do you have the percentages of those who missed out and the new names next year, please? Thanks.

[RIPPA]

Spoiler

Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez	151	57%	---
Sgt. Slaughter	150	57%	59%
Los Hermanos Dinamita	54	57%	---
Jack & Jerry Brisco	140	53%	---
Rick & Scott Steiner	138	52%	40%
Dynamite Kid & Davey Boy Smith	137	52%	---
George Kidd	66	51%	43%
Paul Orndorff	133	50%	35%

 

Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: U.S. and Canada modern 158; U.S and Canada historical 160; Japan 118; Mexico 56; Rest of the World 78

Those are the folks who got 50% (or more of the vote). The third column was their 2021 total. I am not posting the full list. However below are the folks who received less than 10% and are off the ballot

Spoiler

Less than 10% of all votes from a region and dropped from next year’s ballot: Adrian Adonis & Jesse Ventura, Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty, Blackjack Mulligan, Harley Race & Larry Hennig, Kinji Shibuya & Masa Saito, Mr. Wrestling I & II, Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee, New Age Outlaws, Riki Choshu & Animal Hamaguchi, Naomichi Marufuji, Rito Romero, L’Ange Blanc, Ricki Starr, Lord James Blears

Dave thinks Rocca/Perez are mortal locks and he spent A LOT of time talking about how they should have gone in this year. Los Hermanos Dinamita should go in next year since the Lucha backlog as been worked through. Dave spoke a lot about how he miscategorized folks and that hurt their chances (Basically - far too many folks where in Historical and that ended up hurting their chances). Long story short - the backlog is now in the Historical category and it will be getting worse as Slaughter and JYD are moving from modern to historical

As for new folks for next year

Added to next year’s ballot: Jon Moxley, Seth Rollins, Young Bucks, The Beauty Pair (Jackie Sato & Mach Fumiake)

[odessasteps]

Did he explain why there was a big drop off in voters? Did he remove them or did they chose not to vote anymore.

a number of historians were dissatisfied with results this year and some keep threatening to stop voting. 

[RIPPA]

I don't there was a drop off since Dave said their was a huge influx of people voting in the Historical category

I also know in the past Dave has mentioned that Japan seems to fluctuate the most since frequently voters there only vote in Japan and nowhere else (and it frequently depend on the candidates on the ballot each year)

[odessasteps]

That shows voters down across the board.

[The Natural]

2 hours ago, RIPPA said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez	151	57%	---
Sgt. Slaughter	150	57%	59%
Los Hermanos Dinamita	54	57%	---
Jack & Jerry Brisco	140	53%	---
Rick & Scott Steiner	138	52%	40%
Dynamite Kid & Davey Boy Smith	137	52%	---
George Kidd	66	51%	43%
Paul Orndorff	133	50%	35%

 

Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: U.S. and Canada modern 158; U.S and Canada historical 160; Japan 118; Mexico 56; Rest of the World 78

Those are the folks who got 50% (or more of the vote). The third column was their 2021 total. I am not posting the full list. However below are the folks who received less than 10% and are off the ballot

  Reveal hidden contents

Less than 10% of all votes from a region and dropped from next year’s ballot: Adrian Adonis & Jesse Ventura, Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty, Blackjack Mulligan, Harley Race & Larry Hennig, Kinji Shibuya & Masa Saito, Mr. Wrestling I & II, Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee, New Age Outlaws, Riki Choshu & Animal Hamaguchi, Naomichi Marufuji, Rito Romero, L’Ange Blanc, Ricki Starr, Lord James Blears

Dave thinks Rocca/Perez are mortal locks and he spent A LOT of time talking about how they should have gone in this year. Los Hermanos Dinamita should go in next year since the Lucha backlog as been worked through. Dave spoke a lot about how he miscategorized folks and that hurt their chances (Basically - far too many folks where in Historical and that ended up hurting their chances). Long story short - the backlog is now in the Historical category and it will be getting worse as Slaughter and JYD are moving from modern to historical

As for new folks for next year

Added to next year’s ballot: Jon Moxley, Seth Rollins, Young Bucks, The Beauty Pair (Jackie Sato & Mach Fumiake)

Cheers, @RIPPA. Be interesting to see how Jon Moxley, Seth Rollins do, I'd think Mox would score higher for what he's done in AEW and whether the Young Bucks get in the first time of asking. I'm leaning towards yes even though the Bucks are divisive. You really like them or really don't.

[ka-to]

5 hours ago, RIPPA said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez	151	57%	---
Sgt. Slaughter	150	57%	59%
Los Hermanos Dinamita	54	57%	---
Jack & Jerry Brisco	140	53%	---
Rick & Scott Steiner	138	52%	40%
Dynamite Kid & Davey Boy Smith	137	52%	---
George Kidd	66	51%	43%
Paul Orndorff	133	50%	35%

 

Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: U.S. and Canada modern 158; U.S and Canada historical 160; Japan 118; Mexico 56; Rest of the World 78

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Less than 10% of all votes from a region and dropped from next year’s ballot: Adrian Adonis & Jesse Ventura, Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty, Blackjack Mulligan, Harley Race & Larry Hennig, Kinji Shibuya & Masa Saito, Mr. Wrestling I & II, Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee, New Age Outlaws, Riki Choshu & Animal Hamaguchi, Naomichi Marufuji, Rito Romero, L’Ange Blanc, Ricki Starr, Lord James Blears

 

Added to next year’s ballot: Jon Moxley, Seth Rollins, Young Bucks, The Beauty Pair (Jackie Sato & Mach Fumiake)

Mach for Maki is one of those strange autocorrect/typos that seem to pop up in every week's issue.

I would vote for Rocca/Perez, Slaughter and The Beauty Pair. Just the Beauty Pair song is enough to make the HoF.

[ohtani's jacket]

Maki Ueda was the other half of the Beauty Pair.

[The Natural]

It's that time of year again.

Dave Meltzer:

- The new Observer Hall of Fame ballot is out. Newcomers to the ballot include the Iron Sheik, Young Bucks, Jon Moxley, Seth Rollins and Blue Panther. We'll have more on this on shows coming up the next few weeks.

I miss discussing this with Old School John every year :(.