Raw is The Boss-Hug-Chair Connection - 9/2/2019

[Casey]

I don't know, I'm not the one that said Trish Stratus was a Top 5 worker in WWE. Ask @just drew. I'll be over here re-watching Bull Nakano's limited WWF work.

Although, I do remember liking the Street Fight and Hardcore matches that Victoria had with Trish, but I think that was more because Victoria would be in my Top 5, not Trish.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Just now, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Maybe you get the reaction you do because a lot of people have seen what happens when threads devolve into you re-litigating a handful of really good matches she's had that are mostly from 3-4 years ago. 

These aren't difficult questions. He said I am delusional for thinking that she's a top 5 woman in WWE history.  That's fine though, right?  He can say I am delusional about that but then when I press someone to give me their list or someone's resume I am in the wrong...  lol

[Niners Fan in CT]

4 minutes ago, just drew said:

Paige

AJ Lee

Ivory

Jacqueline

Molly Holly

Asuka

Becky Lynch

Michelle McCool

Mickie James

Victoria

Bull Nakano

Wendi Richter

Moolah

Melina

Eve Torres

Natalya

Chyna

Okay, yes.  I am being dismissive.  I am being EXTREMELY dismissive....   @Casey   

[John from Cincinnati]

3 minutes ago, Casey said:

I don't know, I'm not the one that said Trish Stratus was a Top 5 worker in WWE. Ask @just drew. I'll be over here re-watching Bull Nakano's limited WWF work.

Although, I do remember liking the Street Fight and Hardcore matches that Victoria had with Trish, but I think that was more because Victoria would be in my Top 5, not Trish.

Those are good matches. There are some good Trish matches with Mickie too. Overall, I don't think her batting average is as high during her era as Sasha's is. But she wasn't asked to be great all that often. Different times.

I loved Trish's match with Charlotte. Gives us a peak of what she could have been in this period. 

3 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

These aren't difficult questions. He said I am delusional for thinking that she's a top 5 woman in WWE history.  That's fine though, right?  He can say I am delusional about that but then when I press someone to give me their list or someone's resume I am in the wrong...  lol

You're at the scene of the crime so often that I give you no benefit of the doubt. If you're popping up near enough suspicious fires, you might be the arsonist. 

[Just Dave]

2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Okay, yes.  I am being dismissive.  I am being EXTREMELY dismissive....   @Casey   

you misspelled "delusional," Stan.

[Just Dave]

4 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Those are good matches. There are some good Trish matches with Mickie too. Overall, I don't think her batting average is as high during her era as Sasha's is. But she wasn't asked to be great all that often. Different times.

I loved Trish's match with Charlotte. Gives us a peak of what she could have been in this period. 

You're at the scene of the crime so often that I give you no benefit of the doubt. If you're popping up near enough suspicious fires, you might be the arsonist. 

That's a great point and one i'm not sure i could've articulated properly. Cheers.

[Casey]

Sasha wrestles like she knows Meltzer is watching. Seth Rollins does the same thing, except he does that every fucking week, and Sasha only does it for the matches she cares about.

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 minute ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

You're at the scene of the crime so often that I give you no benefit of the doubt. If you're popping up near enough suspicious fires, you might be the arsonist. 

You ever see the film Nightcrawler?  Good movie. Look, if people don't want to debate a point fine..   I'm seeing here now that some folks just want to say things just to say it. That's not how the board used to be. People used to actually attempt to back up in some form what they say.  Give reasons why etc.  Those days are dead.  

[Niners Fan in CT]

I miss the days of Dylan making claims about Hunter.  I didn't agree with him but dammit he made a case. 

[Casey]

Holy fuck dude, you're doing the same thing you claim to hate others doing. You dismissed two lists by @just drew (and tagging me in your responses for some reason?) - and the last one you didn't even attempt to debate/discuss, just flat out said you're being dismissive.

[Niners Fan in CT]

@Casey Your act is tired.  I just started discussing Trish's career and received nothing in response. I'm guessing these guys didn't even watch her career which is cool but why waste my time discussing it if they are adding nothing. 

[John from Cincinnati]

5 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

You ever see the film Nightcrawler?  Good movie. Look, if people don't want to debate a point fine..   I'm seeing here now that some folks just want to say things just to say it. That's not how the board used to be. People used to actually attempt to back up in some form what they say.  Give reasons why etc.  Those days are dead.  

Lots of people like discussion. Discussion is ideal.  Debate, on the other hand, is a garbage form of discourse. 

Since we’re getting nowhere, I’ll leave it at that. It was nice being civil earlier and I hope we can pick it back up going forward.

And Nightcrawler was pretty good.

5 minutes ago, Casey said:

Sasha wrestles like she knows Meltzer is watching. Seth Rollins does the same thing, except he does that every fucking week, and Sasha only does it for the matches she cares about.

This is a good point. That could contribute to me liking Sasha more than Rollins.

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 minute ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

 Since we’re getting nowhere, I’ll leave it at that. It was nice being civil earlier and I hope we can pick it back up going forward.

I'm always civil. I never disrespect anyone on here and I never attack anyone personally. I don't go for shit like that,  no reason for it.  I disagree with things and I defend shit that I like and that's where it ends. 

A few people got annoyed with me in the DC thread a while back so I'm laying low.      .... but I'm hearing rumblings out of Venice...  oooh yessss... 

[Casey]

Well I sure as fuck didn't watch Trish's career, since I was like 11 or 12 years old when she started wrestling, and by the time she retired I was 17. I only brought up those Victoria matches because I watched them recently, but only because I like hardcore type matches, and Victoria. And I don't have an act, besides my love of Liv Morgan and Bad Luck Fale - and everyone pretty much realizes that's because of things that aren't even related to their in-ring work (because, spoiler, neither of them are that great in the ring, and are surrounded by workers far superior than them).

2 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

This is a good point. That could contribute to me liking Sasha more than Rollins.

What's being lost in all of this is that - and this goes for me, don't know about you or Drew - I don't even hate Sasha's work! NXT Sasha is easily the better out of the other three Horsewomen (again, though - in NXT). Everything on the main roster, though... ehhhh. I've really only enjoyed Becky and Charlotte on the main roster. But what I don't agree with is Sasha being in the Top 5 or whatever. Is she on that list, if we all were voting on one? Yeah, probably. She'd probably crack the Top 10 but I'm sure on Niners list she's #1 and that's just lunacy. As much as I hate to admit it, Charlotte (given a few more years) is gunning for #1.

I mean, Liv Morgan is on that list too, obviously. Do I need to show you guys all of her dope outfits that match her Jordan 1s?

[The Man Known as Dan]

These last pages are cancer in text form. 

The thing is there is a legitimate discussion to be had on a lot of this stuff, but that’s not what this is.  It’s a pissing contest. 

[Casey]

Well thanks for adding your stream into the piss contest, I guess?

[Niners Fan in CT]

She's not #1 so... I don't know why you'd think that just because I'm a fan.  I'd place Asuka above her for sure and she doesn't quite have the resume IN WWE yet...  but Io is going to quite clearly be right there with Asuka.  If I was including other promotions then I'd have Io above anyone on the current roster.  I don't know how anyone can vehemently disagree with my opinion if they don't want to discuss the other women mentioned but it's cool. 

[Just Dave]

I don't hate Sasha's work. I have the same basic problem with her nXt matches that I do most other nXt main events; I don't enjoy long, faux epic matches that are pretentious and self-serving. I have the same criticism of Johnny Gargano, so it isn't a gender thing. I also wholeheartedly reject the idea that nXt is any sort of indicator of someone's actual effectiveness in a sports entertainment setting. There are way too many acts that got super over and had great matches in nXt that are complete afterthoughts on actual TV for nxt output to have any real bearing on someone's perceived "greatness." I don't know that I think there's a better example of someone being exposed on the main roster as "nothing special" after such a great nxt run as Sasha. Maybe Tyler Breeze? 

Anyway, my biggest issue with Sasha (other than the gimmick being wholly indefensible, which I've gone into before) is this idea that permeates certain corners of the internet that she's some trancendent figure in the WWE. She's fine. Usually not bad. Occasionally great, but she won't have the impact of a Trish, Lita, or even Beth Phoenix, because there are too many women around Sasha who are just as good as she is at every aspect of what WWE does. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

Three years ago on this very forum we had a tournament men and women included.  We don't have them anymore because Rippa would have to ban everyone but the Finals were Sasha VS Bayley and it ended in a 71-71 tie. I believe Rippa broke the tie for Bayley.  There's a lot of good discussion in those threads,  far better than the discussion here.  Now since then Sasha had a few excellent matches with Charlotte on the main roster and every time she's been given an opportunity like against Ronda at the Rumble she has delivered. She had Nia Jax's best matches on the main roster,  she had Alexa's best matches on the main roster.  She spent a lot of time in useless six women tags that went nowhere to no fault of her own. No, I don't think it's necessary to re-litigate but this idea that she's some average woman worker,  of course I'm going to disagree with that.  She never fell off. It's about opportunity. 

[FluffSnackwell]

The Nia thing was fortuitous for Becky insofar that it prevented Vince from getting Ronda/Becky out of the way at Survivor Series and making his mind up that "Fuck the fans and their silly daydreams! This gives everybody the chance to get that little hiccup out of their system! Ronda/Charlotte WrestleMania Main Event it is!"

[Eivion]

2 hours ago, Casey said:

I don't know, I'm not the one that said Trish Stratus was a Top 5 worker in WWE. Ask @just drew. I'll be over here re-watching Bull Nakano's limited WWF work.

Although, I do remember liking the Street Fight and Hardcore matches that Victoria had with Trish, but I think that was more because Victoria would be in my Top 5, not Trish.

Before NXT Trish was absolutely one of WWE's top 5 women. Now, she is not even top ten. As far as nice Trish matches go, those would be the stuff against Victoria & Mickie. I liked at least one of the Lita matches as well. Otherwise Trish was like many of the other women where they would put out neat short matches, but super rarely anything that would last in memory. I legit think the retirment match with Charlotte is probably her best at this point.

1 hour ago, Casey said:

Well I sure as fuck didn't watch Trish's career, since I was like 11 or 12 years old when she started wrestling, and by the time she retired I was 17.

I watched Trish's career. We are just about the same age (I'm year older if you were 17 in 06).

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

She's not #1 so... I don't know why you'd think that just because I'm a fan.  I'd place Asuka above her for sure and she doesn't quite have the resume IN WWE yet...  but Io is going to quite clearly be right there with Asuka.  If I was including other promotions then I'd have Io above anyone on the current roster.  I don't know how anyone can vehemently disagree with my opinion if they don't want to discuss the other women mentioned but it's cool. 

Io is absolutely above her if we are counting work outside of WWE. You should check out Io's matches with Mayu Iwatani, Momo Watanabe, Kairi Sane (Hojo), Meiko Satomura, Kyoko Kimura, Nanae Takahahsi, & Yoshiko if you ever get the chance.

5 minutes ago, FluffSnackwell said:

The Nia thing was fortuitous for Becky insofar that it prevented Vince from getting Ronda/Becky out of the way at Survivor Series and making his mind up that "Fuck the fans and their silly daydreams! This gives everybody the chance to get that little hiccup out of their system! Ronda/Charlotte WrestleMania Main Event it is!"

Ronda/Becky wasn't really on anyone's mind until Survivor Series. It would have been nice for saving what clearly should have been the WM main event after the first encounter, but they insisted on a triple threat anyways.

[Casey]

Yeah, I watched Trish’s career I guess, but I was a teenager - I was more concerned about who was posing for Playboy rather than if Trish or whoever could put together a good match. I haven’t went back and tried to watch anything from that time period either, though. Just the hardcore matches like I mentioned. The multi-woman match from Survivor Series 2001, too.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Casey

[JonnyLaw]

[Matt D]

Can we talk about how awesome Judy Martin was? She's the star of those Jumping Bomb Angels matches. 

[BobbyWhioux]

if only Rockin Robin had thought to steal her brother's finisher, the history of the division would be completely different...