WWE Network Conversation

[Gorman]

13 hours ago, twiztor said:

100%. i have this in my top three wrestling events of all time (Mania 17 and All In being the other two). 

is this the end of your ECW book or will more supplementary shows be included? ECW ONS2? TNA Hardcore Justice (2010): The Last Stand? Hardcore Homecoming? Extreme Reunion/Rising?

I will finish up with One Night Stand 2006 and December to Dismember 2006.

[Curt McGirt]

Huh. I never knew that; somebody posted it online though.

[SirSmUgly]

On a totally different note, 1992 Superstars is pretty good between Summerslam and Survivor Series. I got weirdly hyped for an Undertaker/Nails standoff on the 10/24/92 Superstars. They must have been doing something right. There's also a Tatanka/Mountie match on one of those that I really liked, mostly because Jacques Rougeau is maybe the best wrestler at being a giant ham and having it come off great. Rougeau's up there, at least. Paul Bearer is on these shows, too, and he's so good at being enjoyably hammy. 1992 WWF in general is very hammy, so the guys who excel at hamminess really stand out. 

Curt Hennig is a giant cornball, and his late '90s WCW run is really awful partially because of that, but in 1992 WWF, there are instances where his cornball nature works. I'm mostly thinking of his disgusted rants after Bret Hart lifts the WWF Championship off of Ric Flair (SASKATOON?!). 

Edited to note that it didn't matter in the end since Bulldog left the company along with Warrior, but Bulldog/Mountie and Bret/Shawn doesn't make as much sense as running Bulldog/Shawn with an IC title change and then Bret/Mountie built around Bret having lost his IC title to the Mountie earlier in the year and the Mountie maybe having Bret's number. 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by SirSmUgly

[Cobra Commander]

Things I remember from watching Starrcade 1995:

Today is an Update Tuesday for Windows. Meaning it's an ideal time to watch some wrestling while letting the update run (it was a quick update this week compared to recent months)

Benoit/Liger was a fun one. It's cool to see Nashville Southern wrestling fans getting into Chris Benoit vs Jushin Liger. Also funny that Tony acts as if Ric Flair is gonna get booed in the South in 1995. Liger clearly was having fun as an arrogant heel. Bullshit finish to end this one though.

Wright/Kanemoto was neat. I've felt Wright was underrated since I started watching 1995 WCW on the Network. The tastemakers of 1995 didn't like pretty boy babyfaces like Alex Wright. Alex Wright looks like if Dolph Lundgren didn't do steroids or have weight. A bit of a video game finish where all these moves get hit and Kanemoto wins with a double-leg rollup.

Luger came out, 2 months off a heel turn, and the fans love him. Lex went from being dead in the water in the WWF to being a conquering hero in WCW quickly and not even this heel-ish stint is slowing him down. This one was a few minutes and people lost their shit for the Rack. This match was the first of a few times when Dusty and Bobby started ribbing Tony over his use of the word "Mafia Kick" and his insistence on actually knowing the names of moves.

I did not expect a cool looking strike exchange between Masa Saito and Johnny B. Badd. You could tell that Saito was the only NJ guy on this card to be working a territory in the early 1980s because Saito was feeding Sonny Oono lots of spots to be the world's most stereotypical shitty heel manager.  Masa Saito looked like a rock carved out of a boulder. The finish was an uber-bullshit finish though. Also Sonny, who is from Mason City Iowa, referenced buying Iowa in a promo earlier in the night. Before this one, Kimberly Page exchanged barbs with Sonny on the mic.

Guerreo vs Ootani (as they spelled it on the show) was a really fun one. This is probably the best match of the tournament. I was really impressed by Ohtani getting both feet on the top rope for all of his springboard moves because it looked like the sort of thing that Sabu would try and fuck up. The face/heel dynamic here is sorta interesting since the heel NJ guys were hitting cooler looking moves than the face WCW guys, at least in the Juniors matches. Ohtani/Otani/Ootani won after a rollup sequence to make it 3-2.

Randy Savage and Tenzan both wore pants with lots of colors on them and Savage won with the elbow. Savage really should have worn tights with the colors of the 1993 WWF technicolor logo more often.

Sting vs Sasaki also felt like it flew by because someone realized "hey, Sting is working back to back matches" so Sting won with the Scorpion. WCW wins the World Cup. Benoit didn't have the giveaway t-shirt for the World Cup of Wrestling as the 7 WCW wrestlers joined each other in the ring for this one.

Sting/Luger/Flair in a triangle match kinda feels like a relic with how many three way matches have happened since then with everybody scuffling at various points. This match is felt like you weren't tagged in, you were just playing with yourself on the apron for all intents and purposes. Eventually we get Sting/Luger as Bobby is amazed that Tony remembers something that happened in February 1992. Then we get a bullshit finish to get Flair into the main event without Sting or Luger taking a fall as the ref gets bumped and Flair knocks both guys to the floor and wins in a style very close to Survivor Series 91. Only this time he's the winner because the two legal men got counted out.

Savage/Flair felt like it flew by. Some random Nashvilleans in the front row were invested in this one. Paul Orndorff showed up to stare at the ring before being told to not appear on TV for 3 years. Things descended into a schmozz with the Horsemen running in. Ric Flair apparently stabbed himself in the head with an exactoknife. Things were so fucking gruesome that Ric Flair couldn't do a postmatch interview, think about how bad that had to be. It's like stopping a match in Mexico due to blood. Back in 1992, Ric Flair bladed at Wrestlemania after seeing Bret Hart bleed vs Piper. In December 1995, Ric Flair bladed at Starrcade after seeing Bret Hart bleed vs Davey Boy (maybe). Like holy shit, he cut himself, and was covered in blood quickly. As far as bladejobs go, that might be the closest Ric Flair came to being Mass Transit.  Ric Flair is the champ again.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Cobra Commander

[Gorman]

22 hours ago, twiztor said:

100%. i have this in my top three wrestling events of all time (Mania 17 and All In being the other two). 

is this the end of your ECW book or will more supplementary shows be included? ECW ONS2? TNA Hardcore Justice (2010): The Last Stand? Hardcore Homecoming? Extreme Reunion/Rising?

TNA is going to get laughed at in every one of my books, because they laughed off my attempt to take the Gut Check Challenge, even though I was the play-by-play voice of Ring Of Honor.

[Curt McGirt]

Didn't Tenzan use a flying elbow drop too? Wonder if he decided to steal it from Savage because of this. 

Anyway, I watched the main just to see Flair bleed and I think Macho might've bladed him, which would explain him leaking all over the ring. You can't really tell; it looks like either that or Macho handed him the blade. Flair also looks like he sticks the blade in his trunks after the pin? Dunno. I have no idea what Jimmy Hart is out there for. Also, Benoit looks as tall as Flair, why was he always derided as too small? He also looks like someone inflated his muscles with an air pump. Pillman, not to be outstaged, gobs in the camera. Gross. 

Here's the whole show: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x43d1u9 May go back and watch the Eddie/Ohtani match which I'm pretty sure I've seen before.

[Cobra Commander]

Just now, Curt McGirt said:

Also, Benoit looks as tall as Flair, why was he always derided as too small?

Art Barr telling Ole Anderson that he (Art) was as tall as Ole but just not as fat comes to mind? not saying Flair was fat. I suspect if Benoit could talk much on the mic, his height would have been ignored. Sorta like how Eddie Guerrero was probably equally short but also was really charismatic.

3 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I have no idea what Jimmy Hart is out there for

Jimmy Hart post-Havoc 95 was simultaneously managing most of the top heels at least until the DOD/Horsemen feud? he came out with Sullivan when Sullivan distracted Benoit, then came out again with Luger. Then he appeared with Flair for the main event for some reason. Like this had to be the last period that they really tried to do something with Jimmy Hart on screen before he essentially just managed DOD dudes and ex-DOD dudes while ripping off songs for other wrestlers

[Godfrey]

Eddie/Ohtani is an old favorite for me, I rented Starrcade 95 from Blockbuster in 97 and there's a move Ohtani does that might be one of the first times I ever yelled "Holy shit!" at the TV

[Curt McGirt]

I guess he was there because of the bullhorn, but they could have just have Flair get posted in order for him to rake a piece of razor across his head. He just seems totally unnecessary when you've got the Horsemen right there. There's no point in trying to replace JJ anyway, if that was what they were going for. 

[Cobra Commander]

AEW is in Arlington tonight. The Von Erichs (Kevin and his sons) are gonna be on TV too. So let's go through the World Class on the network and find something that is listed as airing on December 13th, let's go to..

World Class Championship Wrestling (December 13th, 1986)

Bill Mercer assures us that World Class has the world's greatest wrestlers, such as the Dingo Warrior and Mark Youngblood.

Match 1: Master G vs Tony Atlas. Bill says this is a great match if you like muscles, and some of the people on YouTube sure due love muscles. Percy is at ringside with Master G. Not sure when the last time a crisscross spot was done without it being ironic. A section of fans are chanting "U-G-L-Y You ain't got no alibi" so at least the Sportatorium is lively on this night in 1986. Percy gets on the apron and then gets pulled into the ring and headbutted to the floor. Master G takes over after the distraction and goes to a chinlock. Percy leaves and returns with Matt Borne. Tony Atlas puts Master G in the sleeper and then Matt Borne runs in to interfere for the DQ. The heels take down Tony with a double atomic drop which is a decision for a doubleteam move. The doubleteam stungun/throat drop over the ropes looked better. Matt Borne hits the flying buttdrop and then Percy slaps Tony Atlas in a way that makes it look like he didn't touch Tony.

Match 2: The Grappler vs Bruiser Brody. Unlike a lot of masked men, The Grapper has a home state (Minnesota). We got an upcoming match between Brody and Abdullah which is Loser Leaves Texas. Takes a few minutes to get to Brody loudly chopping Grappler, which was more interesting than the match before that. Pro wrestling physics: a kick to a trapped opponent is more lethal if you run towards the kick. Brody wins with a Big Boot.

Match 3: The Dingo Warrior vs Killer Tim Brooks. Killer Tim Brooks looking like he could be John Tenta's normal sized brother. Warrior doesn't seem to have figured out the things he can do in an interesting fashion. Killer Keith Lee would be a pretty solid alliterative ring name. Warrior wins with a shoulderblock that looks like he just knocked Brooks down with his chest. Warrior had look, at least, but yeah he added a bit in the years after this.

Next week: Al Madril and Brian Adias vs Scott Casey and Mark Youngblood!

Match 4: Abdullah The Butcher vs Chief Mark Youngblood. Nice sweater on Gary Hart this week. Around this time in the card, the arena looks dark and empty. Lots of Abdullah brawling for this one. Man there sure are a lot of large dudes in World Class around this time. Abdullah wins with a sleeperhold that looks a lot like a nervehold. Is it a good sign or a bad sign for Mark Youngblood that he doesn't job to the Elbowdrop?

and our Main Event: Mike, Lance, and Kevin Von Erich vs Al Madril, Black Bart, and Brian Adias for the World Six Man Tag Team titles. Man this is a bit of a bleak main event. You can tell which one is Lance because he's wearing different colors and he's not related to his teammates. Al Madril is opting against wrestling in favor of letting Black Bart do the work. Al Madril tags in and then immediately tags out as soon as Kevin gets in. Brian Adias still looks like 1980s Dave Meltzer in 1986. Kevin is in peril for this one. These 3 on 1 rudo beatdowns sure do remind me of Lucha, so that's fun. Kevin hits Black Bart with a flying dropkick for the win.

Man, this promotion is not going through a good one. There's obviously some talented people around but man.. this is the promotional equivalent to going in a K-Mart and seeing how much it fell off.

[Cobra Commander]

Decided to watch some wrestling that's better than December 1986 WCCW to cleanse a bit

The things I remember from Clash of the Champions 17 (November 1991):

Much like my feelings on the Big Josh/Thomas Rich Submit/Surrender match, this Big Josh/Thomas Rich match was better than you'd expect a match of post-prime Tommy Rich and Matt Borne with a stupid gimmick to be. Sort of a goofy finish because I don't know if it really went anywhere. The group of lumberjacks were a motley crew of guys who couldn't get booked in matches for this show.

Bobby Eaton vs Firebreaker Chip was a match that was on TV alright.

Sting's final box! They found a bunch of muscular dudes to haul out the package. Madusa came out to almost do a Sherri/Warrior tribute. Then Lugar emerges to chopblock Sting. Lugar was sending all those boxes all along.

Zenk beats Diamond Studd and then takes Hall's chokeslam and Diamond Death Drop. Then Hall got away from WCW and became somebody anyways.

Austin vs PN News was a little more frantic than you'd expect. It also ended quickish with Austin winning.

Cactus Jack vs Van Hammer was fun. I saw their better Clash 18 match recently. But somehow Van Hammer looked like a dude with Jack and nobody else was either willing or able to make Van Hammer look that good. Also, the suggestion of Cactus working with Lex Luger with the boxes reminds me that they never actually worked together since they managed to never in the same place for the same time for long. I think Foley vs Luger could have been interesting at least.

Ricky Steamboat is back and Arn Anderson is freaking out. Good match with these four and much like Lex Luger in 1995, Ricky Steamboat is back after recently being in the WWF and he's a conquering hero again.

Paul E had a clause in the contract saying if Sting can't make it, then Adam Cole can defend the US Titlle Sting will forfeit the title. Sting immediately reacts to hearing this news by stealing an ambulance. Also love the 1990s CNN graphics used for the phone calls to Bischoff.

Johnny B Badd turns face by knocking out Teddy Long post-match. The match was interesting. Also Jushin Liger is coming.

Sting is back, he fights valiantly for a few minutes, the heels cheat like bastards, and Rick Rude wins the US title.

Rick Steiner and Lex Luger had a pretty good match. Then chaos ensures, Mr. Hughes takes a Frankensteiner from Scott which looked amazing. Then Lex hits Rick Steiner with the belt to retain.

Make sure to call the hotline to hear if Dustin and Ricky Steamboat get to keep the Tag Team titles (give us your money!)

You can just feel this promotion transitioning from being the island of misfit toys to actually having a really strong top of the card.

[Curt McGirt]

3 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

We got an upcoming match between Brody and Abdullah which is Loser Leaves Texas.

Watch them battle to a DDQ because 1. neither wants to lose, and 2. they both have plane tickets to Japan.

[odessasteps]

Is that when Brody did the Red River Jack gimmick? 

[Gorman]

Thoughts on One Night Stand 2006

ECW fans warmly embraced Kurt Angle as one of their own as he beat Randy Orton. Big Show added another dimension to the ECW roster as he wrecked shop after the Crazy-Tajiri vs. FBI match.

The fans booed World champion Rey Misterio Jr. just for representing Smackdown, even though he had “ECW” on the back of his mask. Rey Jr. vs. Sabu would have been mind-blowing if it had happened 10 years earlier.

Terry Funk took a “61-year-old man falls off a giant ladder” bump. Mick Foley attacked his eye with barbed wire, but Funk came back with his head wrapped up like a Revolutionary War soldier and got revenge with a flaming barbed-wire 2x4.

After winning that match, how did Edge get under the ring to interfere in the Cena-RVD main event? Why was he wearing a motorcycle helmet? Why did he help RVD win the title that he wanted to regain from Cena?

This was my first time seeing the Eugene character. There may be a "right" way to portray a wrestler who is developmentally disabled, but this wasn't it.

Despite Edge’s influential presence in the two most important matches of the night, RVD is the MVP. He wisely cashed in the Money in the Bank briefcase in the perfect environment to win and completed ECW’s rags-to-riches story by winning the WWE title. If ECW had gone off the air permanently at this point, it would have been the ultimate happy ending.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Gorman

[Cobra Commander]

This 2006 Angle run led to me getting an Angle MACHINE tshirt for a discount from the WWE Shop after Kurt departed from the company.

[zendragon]

I've always kinda assumed that Edge wearing the helmet was a reference to Rick Rude

"The Triple Threat" Eliminate Pitbull #2 • Rick Rude Debuts • Pitbull #1 Returns (ECW 1997) (youtube.com)

[worldcupfever]

21 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Is that when Brody did the Red River Jack gimmick? 

It must have been, right?  The timeline would about match up.

[Gorman]

Thoughts on December to Dismember

This was much more of a "WWE C-brand show" than an ECW show. It featured a lot of new faces, and the Dreamer and Balls matches were not particularly extreme. At one point, fans started chanting "We want hardcore!"

Despite Joey, Christian, and Julio graduating from the Pittsburgh scene where I was working to ECW, I was very surprised that CM Punk got hired by the WWE version of ECW. Not that he wasn't a good wrestler - it just didn't seem like WWE would give someone like Punk a chance. He wildly overachieved, and he opened the door for AJ Styles and Bryan Danielson to be taken seriously at the very top of WWE.

This show had a very "thrown together" feel, with only the opener and main event announced in advance. In the opener, Joey Styles said that the Hardys (who went by "Team Extreme") and MNM might never appear in ECW again, and that the Hardys might never team up again! Indeed, Jeff was the Intercontinental champion at the time.

Bobby Lashley has to be the MVP, beating Test and Big Show to win the ECW title in the Extreme Elimination Chamber. The fans didn't exactly give him a hero's welcome. As Paul Heyman said before the match, "The era of Sabu, Sandman, and RVD is over."

Edited December 15, 2023 by Gorman

[zendragon]

I believe the story is that Vince rewrote most of that show after Heyman originally wrote it

[Curt McGirt]

And then was super pissed when the crowd shit all over the show

[Curt McGirt]

Found this, from the Hardcore History book (an excellent read btw):

Quote

Vince McMahon had launched the era of Hulkamania, one of the wrestling business’s most prosperous eras, by putting a muscleman over as a dominant hero. That was his vision for December to Dismember and ECW, with Lashley in the Hulk Hogan role. According to more than one backstage source, McMahon’s only response to Heyman's objections was that Heyman needed to “quit being so fucking negative and get with the program.”

McMahon was not worried, saying fans would be happy to see a new champion and a 10-minute celebration. He compared the timing to a one-round Mike Tyson fight that still left fans excited with what they had seen. Heyman was to cut what would prove to be his last in-ring promo before the main event, and he offered to fill time by delivering a 10-minute promo that he swore would be a verbal masterpiece. McMahon told him not to go over two minutes, 30 seconds.

Heyman reported to McMahon after the show with ideas on where to go from here, but a glowing McMahon wanted to know what Heyman had thought of the event. Heyman, whose lack of diplomacy had caused him problems more than once during his career, replied that the show “sucked” and that it did real harm to ECW as a viable pay-per-view product. However, Heyman said he had some ideas on how to repair the damage. McMahon did not want to hear them. Instead, he furiously grilled Heyman, asking why he was so negative about the grand coronation that had just occurred. Heyman told McMahon there was nothing to like. Fans had seen their ECW heroes, Van Dam and Punk, beaten without anything to redeem them, and the show ran half an hour short. McMahon told Heyman that the longtime ECW head did not understand what ECW had become, and he repeated words he said to many others that night—that December to Dismember had been “an excellent show with an excellent finish.”

Vince shouted this at Paul that evening:

“Get this through your thick fucking head—my focus is on Bobby Lashley and only Bobby Lashley! That man is the brand's icon, the brand's superhero. He is ECW and he will be, at the expense of Rob Van Dam, CM Punk, Test, and everyone else, and you can hit the door if don't like it!”

Apparently Paul was treated to a full-on I quit/you're fired situation and was escorted from the building.

[zendragon]

according to Bob Holly he replaced Sabu in the EEC due to Suprise, Suprise a failed drug test.

Heyman worked with CM Punk during his time running OVW

[Gorman]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:00 AM, Gorman said:

I will finish up with One Night Stand 2006 and December to Dismember 2006.

SWERVE~! (Oops, wrong book) 

Actually, my ECW book needs to be even longer, so it's time to watch ALL of the "WWECW" TV shows. I didn't know that version of ECW lasted until early 2010!

That should be good for three more chapters. I will hand out MVP awards for each quarter of the year.

[Matt D]

20 minutes ago, Gorman said:

Actually, my ECW book needs to be even longer, so it's time to watch ALL of the "WWECW" TV shows. I didn't know that version of ECW lasted until early 2010!

08-10 is actually a lot of fun. Matt Hardy and Christian have great “Ace” runs.

[Shartnado]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:25 AM, zendragon said:

according to Bob Holly he replaced Sabu in the EEC due to Suprise, Suprise a failed drug test.

Heyman worked with CM Punk during his time running OVW

Which one failed? Was Bob Holly put into that abomination as a punishment?