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What if I told you keeping a gun out of a mentally ill person's hand would be a good thing and this movie shows you why that would be a good thing to do? 

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I would agree with the first part and disagree with the second. Anyone who has EMPATHY for Arthur is going to think the gun makes him the heroic star he is at the end, rather than the lonely failure he is at the start.

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59 minutes ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

You mean how like the common talk before the movie was released was that Joker was basically an incel whose motivation was based on his hatred of women. Welcome to the internet, where anyone who wants a movie to fail will use any talking point possible to push the narrative there direction.

That’s exactly what a friend asked me if that’s what the movie is about after I saw it.

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26 minutes ago, AxB said:

I would agree with the first part and disagree with the second. Anyone who has EMPATHY for Arthur is going to think the gun makes him the heroic star he is at the end, rather than the lonely failure he is at the start.

Life isn't black and white. He had a tough life, sure. The people on the subway are assholes, sure. He was also a mentally disturbed individual with a gun and whatever demons he has floating around in his head were taken out on these people because he had easy access to a handgun and social services cut off his programs. 

This film shows the dangers of guns in the wrong hands and mentally ill who society allows to slip through the cracks without providing the proper care. 

Who thinks he looked heroic..  the protesters who are also mentally disturbed. Certainly not the normal everyday person watching the news.  Surely not the audience who was booing him.  They weren't exactly displayed as 'good people' and neither was Thomas Wayne.  Gotham could use a hero though..  someone who will smack the protesters in the mouth and put Joker behind bars.  I wonder who that could be. 

It's not a bad thing to make a movie that shows all of these elements. Movies and video games don't turn people mentally ill. 

 

Edited by Niners Fan in CT
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On that, I agree.

They won't do it, but if the possible sequel ignores Batman altogether and instead tells the story of Joker and Dr Harleen Quinzell, that would be interesting.

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On a certain level, it would probably make sense to use a sequel as an opportunity to finally adapt the Killing Joke.  A PG-13 film is never going to touch that story, but this team...that would seem right up their alley, for better or mostly worse.  You wouldn’t even really need Batman for it.  You could tell a version of it with just Gordon and still hit the major points.

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I'm not sure I ever really need a film adaption of The Killing Joke.

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I've seen the animated version. It's arguably the worst DC Animated movie.

I do disagree that the implication that the protestors are all mentally disturbed exists in the movie anywhere. It's pretty explicit that they are poor and being crushed by society, not that they are all suffering from mental illness.

(Fun sidenote: despite what you hear, most mass shooters who survive are never diagnosed with any mental disorders. One can just as easily argue that this movie promotes dangerous and harmful stereotypes about mental illness, if one wanted to.)

Edited by Brian Fowler
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2 hours ago, Bustronaut said:

...and you replied?

It has nothing to do with Joker hating women. He saw it too, thought it was disturbing.

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Many of the mass shooters have been defined as having troubled childhoods where they displayed hateful/vengeful thoughts either person to person,  online or in writing. That in itself could be a sign of mental illness but if nobody is doing anything about it or social service programs aren't in place then how are we supposed to deal with these potentially deranged individuals.  

This film showed the importance of having these programs in place,  the importance of having a reliable physician who can treat the illness properly with counseling and/or medications they need and showed the importance of keeping guns out of the hands of people who display these disturbing thoughts or behavior. 

The protesters probably weren't all mentally ill but the one who shot Thomas Wayne probably was. The ones who attacked the police probably were. Those aren't signs of normal behavior. 

But furthermore,  I question if some of that stuff even really happened or if that was a dream scenario for Joker. In the comics his background,  his history is multiple choice.  This film explored a lot of the comic lore.  For all the people who said Phillips didn't look into the comics, no he certainly did. Even that whole talk show sequence is pulled from the comics. Joker here much like in The Dark Knight and in the comics has fantasies about how situations played out,  delusions.  Like his relationship or his first appearance on the show when he is an audience member.  Damn near the entire movie is left open to interpretation. 

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Please stop talking about mental illness like you have any idea how it affects people.  Just... don't.

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Also, as the only person here to actually take down a superhero*, I can say that empathizing with a sad sack loser is not on my to do list.

 

*Phoenix Jones

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26 minutes ago, Bustronaut said:

Please stop talking about mental illness like you have any idea how it affects people.  Just... don't.

You don't know anything about me so please stop talking like you do.  Just....  don't.

You are also free to put me back on ignore. 

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Just now, Bustronaut said:

I'm too nosy to have anyone on ignore.

Me too.  I tried it and it wasn't for me.  I don't know if you watched the movie or not but you could write down your issues with it instead of writing down your issues with me who again you don't know... 

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10 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

The other character tossed around (and has been for some time) is Magneto.  I think there is potential for a ridiculously awesome and sometimes depressing Magneto film but I doubt it will happen anytime soon. 

 

10 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

I think First Class pretty much covered the ground a Magneto movie would. Which was, by far, the best part of First Class.

(FWIW, Leo was better in OUATIH than Phoenix in Joker, imo. Which is no knock on Phoenix, but Leo gave a career peak performance and had a way the fuck better script to work from)

I didn't list Magneto for that reason, Magneto out for revenge in X-Men: First Class (2011) was the highlight of it. Nice to get a great X-Men film again after X-Men: The Last Stand (2006) and X-Men Origins: Wolverine (2009).

I'd definitely rank X2 (2003), Logan (2017), Deadpool (2016) in that order ahead of First Class and possibly X-Men (2000) as well.

Edited by The Natural

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2 minutes ago, The Natural said:

I'd definitely rank X2 (2003), Logan (2017), Deadpool (2016) in that order ahead of First Class and possibly X-Men (2000) as well.

Days of Future Past and Deadpool 2 would make my list from the FOX studio.  Actually, I enjoyed The Wolverine too.   I did not like The Last Stand,  Wolverine: Origins or X-Men: Apocalypse. I have not seen X-Men: Dark Phoenix. 

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Just now, Niners Fan in CT said:

Days of Future Past and Deadpool 2 would make my list from the FOX studio.  Actually, I enjoyed The Wolverine too.   I did not like The Last Stand,  Wolverine: Origins or X-Men: Apocalypse. I have not seen X-Men: Dark Phoenix. 

Draw of Days of Future Past to me was the old and new cast coming together and Bryan Singer's return to the series. Deadpool 2 had its moments but I preferred the first movie by some way, tighter and funnier. Deadpool 2's post-credits scenes were better than the movie. I also liked The Wolverine and disliked the ones you do. Yet to see Dark Phoenix myself. 

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6 hours ago, AxB said:

I would agree with the first part and disagree with the second. Anyone who has EMPATHY for Arthur is going to think the gun makes him the heroic star he is at the end, rather than the lonely failure he is at the start.

Yeah, I think that's nonsense. I think there's a difference between having empathy for some of Arthur's situation and not seeing him as heroic at the end. That's a pretty broad brush to say anyone who has empathy for him thinks he's being heroic at the end. 

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I also want to say, I didn't love Joker or think it's a masterpiece, but the mainstream media definitely targeted the jugular for the film in a way it didn't deserve and blamed it for things it wasn't responsible for, complete with the victims of Colorado writing a letter about their "concerns" as if Batman movies were previously responsible for that shooting.

But people love scapegoats. It's human nature. It's been that way for probably millennia. However that same controversy to the people who trashed the film as like some sort of moral check on society and the mark of the apocalypse probably also inadvertently, partially fueled the film's success.

Edited by TheVileOne

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Top 10 (era-appropriate) songs that would have been better for that scene in Joker (than Child rape anthem Rock n Roll Part 2):

  1. Slade: Mama Weer All Crazee Now
  2. T-Rex: Children of the Revolution
  3. Aerosmith: Lightning Strikes
  4. Adam and the Ants: Prince Charming
  5. Judas Priest: Breaking the Law
  6. James Brown: Funky President
  7. Donna Summer: Hot Stuff
  8. Sex Pistols: Bodies
  9. New York Dolls: Personality Crisis
  10. Queen: Another One Bites the Dust
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