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The ROH Thread

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JRGoldman

JRGoldman

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I think you can really point to Joe being pulled by TNA as a major stumbling block that Gabe never quite recovered from. I loved Morishima's reign and a lot of those shows are really good, but I think it's pretty clear from those early 07 shows that the major focus moving forward was going to be Joe v. NOAH leading up to Joe becoming the first 2 time ROH champion. When Joe left, there wasn't anyone chasing the title until months later when Danielson had the Manhattan Mayhem II match leading in to Nigel as the conquering babyface, which was hugely screwed up by PPV in itself. Gabe was putting off Nigel winning until the next round of England shows (which would have been an amazing moment) bu the overseas shows were cancelled to film PPV, which led to Nigel winning the belt in Edison in front of a flat crowd that knew a title switch was happening. 

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The Man Known as Dan

The Man Known as Dan

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Manhattan Mayhem to Punk: The Final Chapter, to me, was the peak of the promotion. After that the roster changed (Punk, Gibson, & Spanky sign, Carnage Crew, Ring Crew Express, and Special K phased out), and while good for the next long while, it's always felt like a downward slope to me.

Talent wise it wasn't quite as strong but the ROH vs. CZW feud was tremendous and my favorite thing ROH ever did plus Homicide winning the title in NYC was a great story, so the decline for me didn't start until after Final Battle '06.
While the CZW feud was good, and in theory I agree on Cide, the Cide run did something kinda damning to the company: it made it predictable. We all knew Danielson vs. Homicide was on for Final Battle. So nobody thought there was any way Danielson would lose the belt until then. Also by then, to me, the undergrad took significant steps to being more generic. And a forgetable undercard is a huge black mark on promotion that once had a very entertaining undercard.Worth noting, I'm not saying the fall off was drastic. If that run in 05 was the company at at 100%, through 06 they were at 90-95%, where as the big drop was in 07, which is about when I warmed to CHIKARA and stopped watching RoH all the time.
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Petey

Petey

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I think you can really point to Joe being pulled by TNA as a major stumbling block that Gabe never quite recovered from. I loved Morishima's reign and a lot of those shows are really good, but I think it's pretty clear from those early 07 shows that the major focus moving forward was going to be Joe v. NOAH leading up to Joe becoming the first 2 time ROH champion. When Joe left, there wasn't anyone chasing the title until months later when Danielson had the Manhattan Mayhem II match leading in to Nigel as the conquering babyface, which was hugely screwed up by PPV in itself. Gabe was putting off Nigel winning until the next round of England shows (which would have been an amazing moment) bu the overseas shows were cancelled to film PPV, which led to Nigel winning the belt in Edison in front of a flat crowd that knew a title switch was happening. 

This is a good point. In 2007 I remember people slowly realizing that ROH was producing a lot of weaker overall cards than they were from 04-06 and that their strong cards were generally because they had an influx of Japanese talent. PPV also really hurt ROH. When they had to basically have two sets of storylines, one for the live events and one for the taped PPVs... continuity became an issue and it just wasn't good. IIRC, I think it was rumored that Gabe was against doing the PPV thing but that Cary pushed it through.

 

 

 

Manhattan Mayhem to Punk: The Final Chapter, to me, was the peak of the promotion. After that the roster changed (Punk, Gibson, & Spanky sign, Carnage Crew, Ring Crew Express, and Special K phased out), and while good for the next long while, it's always felt like a downward slope to me.

Talent wise it wasn't quite as strong but the ROH vs. CZW feud was tremendous and my favorite thing ROH ever did plus Homicide winning the title in NYC was a great story, so the decline for me didn't start until after Final Battle '06.
While the CZW feud was good, and in theory I agree on Cide, the Cide run did something kinda damning to the company: it made it predictable. We all knew Danielson vs. Homicide was on for Final Battle. So nobody thought there was any way Danielson would lose the belt until then. Also by then, to me, the undergrad took significant steps to being more generic. And a forgetable undercard is a huge black mark on promotion that once had a very entertaining undercard.Worth noting, I'm not saying the fall off was drastic. If that run in 05 was the company at at 100%, through 06 they were at 90-95%, where as the big drop was in 07, which is about when I warmed to CHIKARA and stopped watching RoH all the time.

 

Homicide winning the title was predictable but I don't think people thought Danielson wasn't going to drop the title before then. I remember his match with KENTA and the outcome was in doubt. I also think he had a match with Nigel where the outcome was in doubt. Danielson legit hurting his shoulder also added some doubt because people were unsure if he was going to be able to last until Final Battle. But I won't argue anyone who prefers 05 to 06 because 05 was terrific.

 

I feel like 04-07 ROH draws a lot of parallels to 94-97 ECW. 94 was the year ECW really started to standout as a company. ROH was already going strong from 02-03 but I think 04 was ROH's first great year. 95 ECW is probably its peak from a talent depth perspective and the same can be said for 05 ROH. 96 was probably ECW's creative peak and I think 06 was ROH's best year storyline wise. 97 saw ECW finally get on PPV but was also the year that talent that couldn't be replaced started leaving and that same stuff happened in 07 in ROH.

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zev

zev

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Where did the company go wrong? I mean, I know the talent isn't there anymore but it seems the company has lost its way of what it was meant to be.

 I've only really been paying attention to ROH since it first started airing in my region on Saturday nights. I guess you can call it the Sinclair era. But anyway, I've gotta say that whatever armory locker room in which the decision that in 2012 the top heels will include Matt Hardy and Steve Corino took place, that's gotta be at least one place where they went wrong.
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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie

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The TV show was depressing. Too many empty seats. A main event match that was kind of paint by numbers. I dunno...it's weird...ROH feels so dated now. Not that other places aren't, but watching the whole evil faction illogically trying to destroy a promotion (including SETTING A MAN ON FIRE) just reeks of shit I've seen a million times.

 

Where did the company go wrong? I mean, I know the talent isn't there anymore but it seems the company has lost its way of what it was meant to be.[/quote

I think Adam Pearce replacing Gabe was really when ROH changed for the worst.

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Doubting El Dandy

Doubting El Dandy

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The TV show was depressing. Too many empty seats. A main event match that was kind of paint by numbers. I dunno...it's weird...ROH feels so dated now. Not that other places aren't, but watching the whole evil faction illogically trying to destroy a promotion (including SETTING A MAN ON FIRE) just reeks of shit I've seen a million times.

 

Where did the company go wrong? I mean, I know the talent isn't there anymore but it seems the company has lost its way of what it was meant to be.

For me it stopped being great in 2007. You could argue it was sloping downwards after Punk left, but things really didn't start to slide until they lost Joe and Danielson. 

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The Man Known as Dan

The Man Known as Dan

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The TV show was depressing. Too many empty seats. A main event match that was kind of paint by numbers. I dunno...it's weird...ROH feels so dated now. Not that other places aren't, but watching the whole evil faction illogically trying to destroy a promotion (including SETTING A MAN ON FIRE) just reeks of shit I've seen a million times.Where did the company go wrong? I mean, I know the talent isn't there anymore but it seems the company has lost its way of what it was meant to be.

I think Adam Pearce replacing Gabe was really when ROH changed for the worst.
I love Gabe, but I feel this is false. Stable Warfare had a lot of big misses, 2007 was just not up to the 04-06 standard.
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caley

caley

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I reviewed ROH TV 7/27/13 here:http://prowresblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/ring-of-honor-tv-7272013-results-and.htmlOverall thoughts: It was a good episode overall, but I think others will enjoy it more than I did. The cage match was underwhelming and the finish was pretty dumb.Some shots from the show: 

After a couple weeks of watching ROH, I notice there's a lot of guys who are must be huge RVD fans doing moves with laughably unnecessary flips and tumbles before performing them.  I was actually reasonably into the Wolves-New Guys match until there was just too much flipping and guys waiting for other guys to get into position.

 

Main event was pretty cluterfuckish but not in a good way.  Crowd was pretty dead until the end with Nigel as they knew nothing was going to happen until then.  Elgin alternated between "Man, WWE should pick that guy up" to "He is a pro wrestler, right?"  I thought Lethal, in spite of his ridiculously contrived back-flipping diamond cutter, looked like the star here, doing everything to maximize crowd reaction.  I also got a kick out of Jacobs standing up to Corino, only to get a half-swat from Corino that kept him down for the longest time, and when he got up, Steen beat him up anyway, even though he'd already seemingly backed off of SCUM.

 

BTW, the end result means Steve Corino is gone, right?  Please?  I've only been watching for a few weeks and he is just dreadful.  And I was a huge Corino fan in ECW but...no.

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Dog

Dog

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So ROH has hit that 10 year mark at which point it's okay to like it?  I thought everyone on the board more or less hated the company through much of its existence.

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Ace

Ace

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So ROH has hit that 10 year mark at which point it's okay to like it?  I thought everyone on the board more or less hated the company through much of its existence.

Nope. Even when RF owned it, people merely hated him (for good reason) and not the company.

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Petey

Petey

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So ROH has hit that 10 year mark at which point it's okay to like it?  I thought everyone on the board more or less hated the company through much of its existence.

Nope. Even when RF owned it, people merely hated him (for good reason) and not the company.

 

I didn't start watching ROH until the very end of '03 so all I really remember about RF was the "lol ill pretend u said 18" shamefulness. Why was he hated before that stuff?

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JRGoldman

JRGoldman

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So ROH has hit that 10 year mark at which point it's okay to like it?  I thought everyone on the board more or less hated the company through much of its existence.

Nope. Even when RF owned it, people merely hated him (for good reason) and not the company.

 

I didn't start watching ROH until the very end of '03 so all I really remember about RF was the "lol ill pretend u said 18" shamefulness. Why was he hated before that stuff?

 

 

 

I think that's a valid enough reason for the hate. 

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Ace

Ace

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So ROH has hit that 10 year mark at which point it's okay to like it?  I thought everyone on the board more or less hated the company through much of its existence.

Nope. Even when RF owned it, people merely hated him (for good reason) and not the company.

 

I didn't start watching ROH until the very end of '03 so all I really remember about RF was the "lol ill pretend u said 18" shamefulness. Why was he hated before that stuff?

 

Spamming the board. Repeatedly.

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Petey

Petey

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So ROH has hit that 10 year mark at which point it's okay to like it?  I thought everyone on the board more or less hated the company through much of its existence.

Nope. Even when RF owned it, people merely hated him (for good reason) and not the company.

 

I didn't start watching ROH until the very end of '03 so all I really remember about RF was the "lol ill pretend u said 18" shamefulness. Why was he hated before that stuff?

 

 

 

I think that's a valid enough reason for the hate. 

 

I agree. I meant, why was he hated before we knew about all that stuff?

 

 

 

 

So ROH has hit that 10 year mark at which point it's okay to like it?  I thought everyone on the board more or less hated the company through much of its existence.

Nope. Even when RF owned it, people merely hated him (for good reason) and not the company.

 

I didn't start watching ROH until the very end of '03 so all I really remember about RF was the "lol ill pretend u said 18" shamefulness. Why was he hated before that stuff?

 

Spamming the board. Repeatedly.

 

And that's the explanation I was seeking. Thanks.

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Spontaneous

Spontaneous

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I think the thing that has killed ROH has been Evolve and TNA locking up their rosters and ROH not flying guys in anymore. I feel  like current PWG is more akin to what kind of roster ROH would sport, with a few differences, if they didn't have TV and "exclusive" contracts. No way the Young Bucks are a "special attraction" if not for contracts. The booking of the roster they have is unfocused. Tomorrow is supposed to be a big show, they have KUSHIDA coming in and Forever Hooligans/American Wolves yet it feels so unimportant because it is not the TV show. It is like when they did the PPVs and everything seemed pointed towards that. Kills interest in every other show.

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