Puroresu General Discussion for 2018

[sevendaughters]

I really enjoyed stuff like Makai Club and Curry Man and Danielson turning up, less so Chyna, Sapp, and Brock, and yeah it is plain as day Nakamura was overpushed as hell. Young Goto and Makabe were fun and I think Tanahashi was just very good very quickly. Early Shibata was a great great dickhead. I've got various early 00s G1 matches too and they really deliver, even people who get mocked like Fujita put in a good shift. Then there's the stalwarts like Nishimura holding it down. I just think there's a lot to love alongside the criticised stuff. You could argue Z1 were outdoing them at the same game, but still.

[Jiji]

Never got into Z1 outside of the big matches that always made their way online before YouTube. The fire festivals sounded like good times and Tetsuhiro Kuroda getting booked near the top of a pretty significant promotion was neat. 

And Fujita should've been the one man who symbolized INOKIISM at the time. Would've focused the feud and made it easier to manage than bringing in so many overpaid and overprotected outsiders. Okay, and maybe Don Frye. Fujita was a good wrestler with an aura who worked in a convincing manner that made it seem like he was really fighting against those pansy fake fighters. Encapsulated everything right there. I liked him for sure. I do get it made a lot of sense for them to being in cultural sensation Bob Sapp though. They should've just uses him smarter. 

[Curt McGirt]

Thought about it and most all I've seen from the era from both NJPW and Z1 is all on Schneider comps. 

[sevendaughters]

I got the first ever Z1 show on tape not long after it aired from the bootleg VHS guy in Manchester as me and my friend were trying to broaden our horizons in wrestling beyond WWF/WCW/ECW. We found Mexican stuff a bit weird and camp and hard to follow, so we got a job lot of Hansen in All Japan tapes and Zero1.

We loved some of it - the opener is Marufuji against a Michi Pro guy in a really great fast match that was easy for us fans of ECW/early ROH to get into. Then a really sluggish stiff Akitoshi Saito match, a shooto type match, and then we were looking out for Gary Steele because he's British but that match was kind of bad to us too. Then another worked shoot (by the way we had no reference for worked shoot either so were just like 'is this a load of fights?') and then two good tag matches at the top of the card, main event burned in my mind to this day: Misawa/Akiyama vs. Hashimoto/Nagata. It was a really good mirror to a lot of Inoki style cards and it really helped cement my love of variety across a wrestling card.

Anyway I watched it again with 17 years of learning behind me and enjoyed nearly all of it on some level. It was a strange experiment but they really have an aura around their upper card that would sadly dissipate around Hash's death.

[Eivion]

I only came in at the second half of that era, but I don't recall a big amount of dislike for it on the whole, just the big stuff involving the acehood and IWGP title. Even stuff like Sapp and Brock weren't terrible ideas, its that those guys themselves didn't deliver in the end for their own bs reasons.

[Beech27]

My only real take is I’ve got a lot to watch once the G1 ends, since my New Japan fandom pretty neatly coincided with the final years and then the more traditionally pro wres reboot. So I’m probably a little guilty of taking Inokism=Bad as received wisdom, and in that regard pretty representative of the generation of wrestling fans who went something like

ROH—>NOAH—>AJPW—>NJPW—>indies (Men’s Club!)

[John E. Dynamite]

I ate up Osamu Nishimura's shitck like nothing else. Some of that shooty top-of-the-card stuff worked alright if the right matchups were made -  the whole NWF Heavyweight Title scene with Fujita, Takayama, Tsuyoshi Kohsaka and Nakamura wasn't a total loss. The '01-'04 G1s were money - the '01 B Block of Chono / Tenzan / Kojima / Nishimura / Liger is one of my all-time favorites, you had the final Chono run in '02, the really good Jun Akiyama run in '03 and the ascendancy of the New Muskateers in '04.

[Jiji]

The G1 starting in 2001 definitely started building a rep for greatness and NJPW seemed to build on it year after year. I think the 2004 G1 was the one that really had people saying it was the best tournament ever or right there with the '95 Carnival. Kensuke had a disgusting slugfest with Takayama I recall pretty clearly. Look at those blocks tho:

A Block:

• Blue Wolf
• Masahiro Chono
• Yuji Nagata
• Shinsuke Nakamura
• Katsuyori Shibata
• Minoru Suzuki
• Genichiro Tenryu
• Everybody's fave rotund goofball Yutaka Yoshie

B Block:

• Koji fucking Kanemoto
• SHINYA Makabe
• Manabu Nakanishi
• Osamu Nishimura (always capable of a G1 flash pinfall)
• Kensuke Sasaki
• Yoshihiro Takayama
• Hiroshi Tanahashi
• Hiroyoshi Tenzan

Suzuki vs. Tenryu? Suzuki vs. Shibata? Got.dayum. Blue Wolf was a good undercard worker from that era that rather fell off the face of the earth in an instant. I remember Nakanishi and Takayama having some dandy battle of the German Suplexes back in that era too. I was no Tenzan fan (I enjoyed Kojima originally for his charisma and mullet and later his charisma and in-ring ability) but it was a great idea to have him become Mr. G1 2.0 even if he'd suffer from vertigo near the top of the card. 2003 really felt like his year after that fantastic finals match against Mai Boi Jun. 2002 was the one I think I got to see everything for the first time whereas I only saw the key matches from 2001 but those G1 tournaments were fucking awesome. Sadly I barely remember Kawada's run in 2005. We got a fucking semi-final of Kaz Fujita vs. Toshiaki Kawada! Weird. I distinctly remember Fujita/Chono though and thought it was a match that didn't deserve to be the final at that stage of their careers even though they tried really hard. Once it became Kojima and Tenzan wrestling for 30+ on the reg I was done, ROH had lost the majority of the guys I enjoyed watching to TNA and WWE, and WWE was shitting the bed too, so I stopped watching wrestling as a whole. I think it was the Summer of Punk that pulled me back in.

[Curt McGirt]

7 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I remember Nakanishi and Takayama having some dandy battle of the German Suplexes back in that era too.

IIRC that is one fucker of a match off one of the Schneider comps that you can't find on any of the streaming sites and is sooooooo soooooo good. I've actually gone out of my way to try and find it to post it here in the past and had no luck. 

[Belgian_Waffle]

I used to religiously order all that stuff from Highspots back when I was in high school (talking 2001-2003). The NJPW TV tapings from that period are host to all kinds of weird things. The Jadoh (as champion!!!!) Jr title defence against El Samurai stands out as a particularly odd one. I actually hated NJPW booking at the time except for G1 2003 when Tenzan was booked really meticulously to win. Then they fed him to Nakamura, killed his push, and his work began to deteriorate pretty quick. The booking under Inoki in that period was always uniformly awful. Never thought Tanahashi was good until his 2007 run where Nagata beats him for the belt and then Tana has to win it back. Shibata was always cool. The low-point of every show was the Crazy Dogs. 

[Beech27]

That 2007 Nagata/Tana match was the MOTY in the old board’s Japan folder, though I can’t remember how I voted, and of course all those posts are gone. (In this case I might be ok with that.) If there were a surviving record, it would be interesting to see how New Japan fared in the voting during the 2000s. 

Edit: Holy shit this is pretty close! Only lists the top ten, and omits 2003, 2004, and 2005, but this is fascinating to me. Shinobu, a DVDVR legend! And everyone hating the analysis is, of course, beautiful. 

 

[Archibald]

I might get some shit for this, but in my opinion neither of the guys from the third generation were good enough to carry the company further. I really like Kojima and Nagata, but in my opinion they weren't comparable to previous musketeers. And Nakamura/Tanahashi/Shibata were still too young to really do that either. Add to that growing popularity of MMA and I kind get why Inoki tried to do so many weird things that ended up not working.

And it is easy to look back now and say that Inokism killed NJPW and how Inoki was mad, but at the time probably nobody knew if these things would work or not. For example how NOAH was doing great then suddenly dropped like a rock, now people look back at it and say how booking was responsible and X or Y should have happened and all that, but at the time who knew that? For all we know in 2024 we might be writing about Gedoism and how it killed NJPW again.

[Jiji]

2 hours ago, Belgian_Waffle said:

I used to religiously order all that stuff from Highspots back when I was in high school (talking 2001-2003). The NJPW TV tapings from that period are host to all kinds of weird things. The Jadoh (as champion!!!!) Jr title defence against El Samurai stands out as a particularly odd one. I actually hated NJPW booking at the time except for G1 2003 when Tenzan was booked really meticulously to win. Then they fed him to Nakamura, killed his push, and his work began to deteriorate pretty quick. The booking under Inoki in that period was always uniformly awful. Never thought Tanahashi was good until his 2007 run where Nagata beats him for the belt and then Tana has to win it back. Shibata was always cool. The low-point of every show was the Crazy Dogs. 

You had me until the Tanahashi comment. He wasn't near his ace level or anything but he clearly struck me as the guy who should be carrying the company (and every time he'd job to Tenzan or Nakanishi or any of the failed '92 generation I'd be furious). He had the look (*swoon*), had the right blend of Mutoh/Fujinami influence, and worked so well from underneath against the vets but had a cocky assurance when he was with an equal or lesser. I really dug his flash pin period, particularly the lightning speed cradle. 

And while I'm chompin' on them 'member berries, 'member NJPW ITV or whatever their internet service was called that popped up in 2002? It would put bigger shows up on the service quite a while after the fact and in pretty terrible quality but it was a legal way of supporting and watching NJPW, so it was kind of rad if not flawed. Oh, and we'd stay up on the IRC channel and read the results as they happened for the big shows! We have it so good now but there was a nice sense of community at Strong Style Symphony (even if I didn't love Stuart's rose tinted glasses) and especially the Kaiju/other smaller puroresu boards of that time.

@Archibaldgotta disagree with you, brother. It was patently obvious Makai Club was doing more harm than good (bless Murakami and Yasuda in hindsight was kind of hilariously fun), as was the case with most every one of the shooters that came in and almost always beat the natives. Throwing Nagata to the wolves in legit shoot fights with the two greatest heavyweight MMA fighters of the time (and one arguably is still the HW GOAT)? Didn't need an awful lot of foresight to see that was a fucking dumb idea. Maybe if he just buttscooted against Cro Cop and negotiated for favourable rules? I don't think Nagata or any of those '92 generation guys would have been able to carry the torch from the Musketeers and not see a noticeable drop off in both business and in-ring quality but they could've been given a fighting chance at least. Tanahashi felt ready in late '04 iirc. Nakamura's early overpush was a disaster for sure. Poor Shibata always seemed to be the fall guy and I don't really recall many big wins, hence why I totally understood his leaving in 2005. I do wish he didn't waste his physical prime getting murdered in MMA. Good God, I remember watching random Korakuen tags with Tanahashi and Shibata mat wrestling and it being so smooth and articulating their personas so crystal clear... Sad to see how that turned out for Shibata.

You also didn't need to be a mastermind of dis byisnizz to see NOAH's issues. Akiyama admittedly didn't want to be the ace and never really received the necessary booking to establish himself as The Man either. Kobashi and Misawa, while still incredible, were shot and their escalation of violence was insane. They tried to elevate guys like Ogawa (I think I raged pretty hard when I read about his GHC victory over Akiyama) and later Rikioh and it was plain as day that they weren't going to work at the top. Morishima and KENTA seemed like the only legit internal options and for reasons neither worked soon enough.

@Beech27, that list brings back the feelings. I still show the Kawada/Fuchi vs. Nagata/Iizuka tag to friends/newcomers, as it's both an incredibly dramatic match and perfectly demonstrates the hierarchical system that Japanese wrestling strictly abides. 

[Ryan]

Sami Callihan won the DDT main belt, so that's something for now. Either they're booking him or he loses it back to Irie or someone else before Irie goes back to Japan.

[Jiji]

On a Wednesday night in Dayton, Ohio in a promotion I've never heard of... Whut da hale?!

[Ryan]

Irie and Sami are bros, so who knows how this is going to end.

[sevendaughters]

Nice coincidence 

 

[Archibald]

Dave wrote that Hiromu is likely 9-12 months out and has no nerve damage so his bone/whatever just has to heal and he needs to rehab for his physical wrestling style. All in all good news I guess.

But I wonder what does it mean for LiJ, Bushi getting pushed into Junior title picture? Them getting a new member since 4 is rather small and limited squad?

[Beech27]

No nerve damage is better than we probably could have hoped, but still. I wonder how they get a new junior champ?

As for LIJ... The original angle was that Bushi (pretended he) wanted to tag with him, and now CHAOS seems pretty uncomfortable. (I don't think this is gonna happen, but the threads are there to be picked up.)

[Raziel]

I'd want to say tourny for the vacant belt, but we're just coming off BOSJ and the G1, so it's not likely.  I guess we're getting a 4 way at Dominion with at least Bushi, Kushida, and Despy.

[Archibald]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of short tournament considering that Destruction shows often are rather weak.

[sevendaughters]

11 hours ago, Archibald said:

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of short tournament considering that Destruction shows often are rather weak.

maybe...something....to find....the best....of the....super juniors?

[John E. Dynamite]

Before we finish up reminiscing about NJPW's dark years - I know there are some really good defenses from the Big Nagata Reign and I'm gonna try hard to remember which they were. I was an absolute baby to puroresu when that stuff was floating around on Kazaa. The Little Nagata Reign I remember well. It hurt knowing that the IWGP Heavyweight Championship was being defended at Kouraken, but his hardway-heavy defense against a then-emergent Togi Makabe was always one of y favorites. The final of what I think was the first NJC [edit: it was the second) was Nagata/Giant Bernard and I really dug it. I remember the first time I noticed that Ishii was capable of being a super-serious heavyweight workrate guy was the chemistry he had against Nagata in some early round NJC stuff circa 06/07.

Tanahashi gets all the credit for carrying the company to it's current glory but Nagata was absolutely the guy putting the work in before him and well as being an ideal torch-passer.

[dragonzombie]

On August 1, 2018 at 4:11 PM, iowanole said:

Where can I see this event? Thanks!

https://rutube.ru/video/9116f48b015e001866d8141e0218c28d/

[Raziel]

On 8/3/2018 at 5:43 AM, sevendaughters said:

maybe...something....to find....the best....of the....super juniors?

That'd be great if they didn't just run the tournament to find the best of the super juniors a couple months ago that Hiromu won.