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Elsalvajeloco

2017 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

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Well deserved for Sakuraba.

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Do they plan on doing a Hall of Fame ceremony for these inductees? I'm guessing that would occur on the July 4 weekend card?

Oh, wait. Man, that's a weak card for that show, but they also have the much bigger show at the end of the month.

Also, I just realized that Hunt vs Black Beast is this week. I'm stoked.

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1 hour ago, WholeFnMachine said:

He brings up some very valid points.  If you do less marketing to sell a fighter, you can't then turn around and complain that his fights don't sell.  If anything, you should be doing more marketing in order to boost buys for the less marketable fighters.  WME has been terrible since they've taken over, and it really seems as if they have no clue on how to make the right fights nor how to treat their fighters.  Zuffa was far from perfect, but it seems like more and more fighters are fed up with the new management group.

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4 hours ago, Craig H said:

Do they plan on doing a Hall of Fame ceremony for these inductees? I'm guessing that would occur on the July 4 weekend card?

Yes, it will be on Thursday before during International Fight Week on Fight Pass.

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

He brings up some very valid points.  If you do less marketing to sell a fighter, you can't then turn around and complain that his fights don't sell.  

What is less marketing? Because they're marketing him as the best pound-4-pound fighter and have been doing that since Jon had his troubles. They would cut million dollar commercials for him but none of his fights really merit spending that much money on a commercial. Hell, even in the Zuffa era, they didn't really do that except for fights they warranted it.

For like late night TV for example, what does being on late night TV do for people nowadays? People go on those shows to promote films, TV shows, etc. but a lot of those projects still bomb or are successful regardless of those appearance. We're far from the heyday of Leno and Letterman. In addition, they can't make people book folks on those shows.

What specifically can they do to make Demetrious Johnson a bigger star other than him taking fights against more notable fighters? Someone started a thread about him two years (IIRC) and no one came up with any real solutions. 

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Just now, Elsalvajeloco said:

What is less marketing? Because they're marketing him as the best pound-4-pound fighter and have been doing that since Jon had his troubles. They would cut million dollar commercials for him but none of his fights really merit spending that much money on a commercial. Hell, even in the Zuffa era, they didn't really do that except for fights they warranted it.

For like late night TV for example, what does being on late night TV do for people nowadays? People go on those shows to promote films, TV shows, etc. but a lot of those projects still bomb or are successful regardless of those appearance. We're far from the heyday of Leno and Letterman. In addition, they can't make people book folks on those shows.

What specifically can they do to make Demetrious Johnson a bigger star other than him taking fights against more notable fighters? Someone started a thread about him two years (IIRC) and no one came up with any real solutions. 

He spelled out a few ways that he's been marketed less, like fewer Facebook posts, fewer mentions on other social media, how rarely his commercials ran compared to other fighters.  I'm not saying it's going to work, I'm saying they are doing less and then blaming him for not drawing as many eyes.  He very well could be less marketable than other fighters, but based on their behavior there really is no way to tell whether or not that is true.  

On my blog, I pretty much do the same amount of marketing for every single post.  I know that people are more interested in my roasted chicken recipe than they are interested in a recipe for a reverse seared steak.  I can tell you exactly how many more people want to see my chicken recipe, where those people come from, and how much time they spend reading the recipe.  I also have a pasta recipe that was accepted to one of those recipe aggregator sites, and it has more than double the number of views of any other recipe on the site.  I've spent a good deal of time recooking recipes and taking more pictures to get more recipes on aggregator sites, because I know that those sites increase the reach of my blog.  They are doing the exact opposite. What the UFC is doing is putting certain fighters on the equivalent to a recipe aggregator site, and then claiming that all the fighters not on that site aren't marketable.  The issue is that they control the aggregator site, but instead of putting Demetrious Johnson on the site they are blaming him when fewer people click on his recipe.   

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Just now, supremebve said:

He spelled out a few ways that he's been marketed less, like fewer Facebook posts, fewer mentions on other social media, how rarely his commercials ran compared to other fighters.  I'm not saying it's going to work, I'm saying they are doing less and then blaming him for not drawing as many eyes.  

But how in the hell does that galvanize people to buy PPVs? That's some WWE exec hiree thinking that social media = $$$$. I see his commercials as much as anyone else. 

Why would Demetrious Johnson versus Ray Borg sell either way? You can have a whole Facebook/Twitter/IG page dedicated to that fight alone and it would still do sub 150k on PPV. 

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6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

But how in the hell does that galvanize people to buy PPVs? That's some WWE exec hiree thinking that social media = $$$$. I see his commercials as much as anyone else. 

Why would Demetrious Johnson versus Ray Borg sell either way? You can have a whole Facebook/Twitter/IG page dedicated to that fight alone and it would still do sub 150k on PPV. 

Believe it or not, social media marketing is one of the most effective ways to market.  Don't get me wrong I don't think Demetrious Johnson is going to do 500K on PPV, but he could possibly do 200K if he was marketed better.  We know who Demetrious Johnson is, because we are die hard fans of MMA, we don't count.  There is another group of casual fans who know who he is, but haven't been convinced to spend money on his fights, they barely count.  Then there is a huge group who have no idea who Demetrious Johnson is, why they should know who he is, and haven't decided if he is worth spending their money to see fight.  These people count a lot. His point is that as he's become the greatest fighter in the world, they've done next to nothing to get more attention from anyone who isn't already a Demetrious Johnson fan.  How often have you heard the UFC say that he's the greatest fighter in the world outside of a UFC event?  Is there any reason he hasn't been on a pre or post fight show?  Has he ever been on any of the ESPN shows?  Almost every English speaking champion has been on Highly Questionable, why hasn't he?  A lot of those things are free, they just aren't doing them.  There is a chance that his PPV marketability has increased, except they aren't even trying to find out.  

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3 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Believe it or not, social media marketing is one of the most effective ways to market.  Don't get me wrong I don't think Demetrious Johnson is going to do 500K on PPV, but he could possibly do 200K if he was marketed better.  We know who Demetrious Johnson is, because we are die hard fans of MMA, we don't count.  There is another group of casual fans who know who he is, but haven't been convinced to spend money on his fights, they barely count.  Then there is a huge group who have no idea who Demetrious Johnson is, why they should know who he is, and haven't decided if he is worth spending their money to see fight.  These people count a lot. 

But that's the thing....they've already decided because the last four or five years for the UFC has been "Pay for that, skip that, skip that, pay for that" etc. This huge group hasn't created chasm between draws and non-draws. We've had 2 and 1/2 draws w/ the half being Jon Jones when he is able to fight. Everybody else has not drawn on PPV save for a notable exception of a one off Brock Lesnar PPV. If the UFC wasn't saturating the market and virtually its own competition, it would be easier to have more PPVs be sellable. However, as is, none of those fights can sell a damn thing because fans have already made up their mind. You know the people who are willing to buy a Mighty Mouse? People like me who will watch any goddamn thing related to the UFC. It ain't Joe Schmoe watching PTI (who themselves don't give a damn about MMA) or some drunk dude who forgot which Fox Sports channel he was watching and turned on a UFC post fight show when he actually wanted to watch Motocross.  The people who are going to pay for UFC 214 are the people who chose to skip 212 and 213. It ain't because they don't know who Amanda Nunes or Max Holloway are or don't see them littering the TV airwaves. They've already decided 214 is more worthy of their PPV bucks. It's just what it is.

The fight that might do business? TJ Dillashaw. Why? Because he would be the most noteworthy person he has faced at 125. You can't sell people mismatches when they didn't buy mismatches in the first place.

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1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

But that's the thing....they've already decided because the last four or five years for the UFC has been "Pay for that, skip that, skip that, pay for that" etc. This huge group hasn't created chasm between draws and non-draws. We've had 2 and 1/2 draws w/ the half being Jon Jones when he is able to fight. Everybody else has not drawn on PPV save for a notable exception of a one off Brock Lesnar PPV. If the UFC wasn't saturating the market and virtually its own competition, it would be easier to have more PPVs be sellable. However, as is, none of those fights can sell a damn thing because fans have already made up their mind. You know the people who are willing to buy a Mighty Mouse? People like me who will watch any goddamn thing related to the UFC. It ain't Joe Schmoe watching PTI (who themselves don't give a damn about MMA) or some drunk dude who forgot which Fox Sports channel he was watching and turned on a UFC post fight show when he actually wanted to watch Motocross.  The people who are going to pay for UFC 214 are the people who chose to skip 212 and 213. It ain't because they don't know who Amanda Nunes or Max Holloway are or don't see them littering the TV airwaves. They've already decided 214 is more worthy of their PPV bucks. It's just what it is.

The fight that might do business? TJ Dillashaw. Why? Because he would be the most noteworthy person he has faced at 125. You can't sell people mismatches when they didn't buy mismatches in the first place.

I'm not even arguing against anything you are saying, I'm fully aware that some of these fights aren't going to draw many viewers.  The issue isn't that some fighters draw and other fighters don't.  The issue is that they seem to have decided who can and will draw, before they have an opportunity to prove whether or not they can draw.  When you have fighters who can find specific examples of how they are being treated differently, you are setting yourself up for failure.  At the least it's going to lead to a bunch of disgruntled workers, at worse it is going to lead to lawsuits.  There is no reason not to use their promotional power to get behind their fighters, especially when they own so much air time, and could do a lot of it for next to no money.  

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4 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 When you have fighters who can find specific examples of how they are being treated differently,

But I think everyone especially the champs can find a way they're being treating differently. You can probably find validity in some of their claims. The problem is once you relate back to the business end, they got the receipts to prove their side and how much you're actually worth to the company. For a vast majority, it ain't a whole lot. At one point, and I think fairly recently, Dana I believe came out and defended DJ when they brought some of these same questions up. Most promoters would've already given up on him, but they want to put him in at least one notable fight before his time at flyweight champ ends.  

The problem with trying to bolster putting fighters on different social media outlets and TV outlets is none of those platforms can give you a contextual understanding of what you're potentially buying. If it ain't major stick and ball sports or a superfight like Mayweather vs. Pacquiao, you're SOL when it comes to a non combat sports platform trying to sell a combat sports fight. Unless you get presser highlights or Dana doing the hard sell, it is nothing any outlet can tell you about a Demetrious Johnson fight you didn't already know. So the contingent who has known about Demetrious Johnson for half a decade, if they ain't bought his PPVs consistently, it ain't nothing the UFC can do make them buy them.

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Ray Borg has missed weight twice at flyweight.  So there is just as good of a chance of him not making weight if not more.

I don't like the Dillashaw fight.  However, UFC has no obligation to make Johnson breaking the title record easy for him.  Their job is to promote fights and book Johnson in a fight.  Johnson is making the mistake of trying to pick and choose his fights.  Yeah someone getting to 11 title defenses is pretty outstanding, but why does the UFC have to guarantee victory for Johnson?  They don't.  This is still combat sports.  It's not WWE.  They don't have to book him so he gets the easiest fight possible to break the record.

Then again, its strange to me the UFC went so hard for the Ray Borg fight going by Johnson's statement anyway.

There is validity to the marketing point.  The UFC and WME-IMG don't get behind certain guys and don't market all the big guys like they should.  Max Holloway hasn't gotten a fraction of the promotion that Sage Northcutt or Paige VanZant has.  I have no problem with those two getting the attention they have.  They are decent fighters and they are marketable.  But why hasn't the marketing department given any shine to Max Holloway at all?  I see him at the press conferences and he seems like money.  The guy is taking everyone's scalp at featherweight and then he wears badass gold and platinum ties.  

Not everyone's going to be Conor McGregor.  But that's OK.  Dana White said something once in a scrum for the Rousey/Nunes fight on how they marketed the fight where it was basically all Rousey.  Nunes wasn't promoted for that fight at all, which was bad considering she was the champ and you know she is the one that ended up destroying Rousey.  However, White's point was that there were only so many marketing dollars to spend, and from that standpoint, yes it made sense to focus everything on Rousey because she was the main attraction and it made money.

On the other hand, it seems the UFC has been so desperate to make whatever perceived "money" fights they can because Rousey is virtually retired, McGregor is fighting Mayweather, Diaz brothers aren't fighting either, and after all the false hype, GSP isn't fighting this year for his comeback either.  In other words, there isn't going to be a premiere major money attraction fight other than MAYBE Jones/Cormier if it happens.  

My point is this.  Invest a little more money into promoting and marketing some of the other potential superstars they have.  I doubt Max Holloway is going to complain if UFC tries to get him out there more.  Just pay the man like he says.  

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46 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

On the other hand, it seems the UFC has been so desperate to make whatever perceived "money" fights they can because Rousey is virtually retired, McGregor is fighting Mayweather, Diaz brothers aren't fighting either, and after all the false hype, GSP isn't fighting this year for his comeback either.  In other words, there isn't going to be a premiere major money attraction fight other than MAYBE Jones/Cormier if it happens.  

My point is this.  Invest a little more money into promoting and marketing some of the other potential superstars they have.  I doubt Max Holloway is going to complain if UFC tries to get him out there more.  Just pay the man like he says.  

Exactly the point I was trying to make.  The UFC has pretty much decided who is and isn't marketable, and are seemingly uninterested in marketing anyone else as a star.  Holloway is a 25-year-old champion who just beat one of the 5 best fighters of all time.  He should be everywhere.  He loves the camera, likes to talk, and is an absolute killer once he gets into the cage.  He could be a huge star.  Tyronn Woodley got on ESPN and flat out called the UFC racist because they were clearly pushing his challenger as a bigger star than him.  Woodley beat Thompson twice in a row, and now they have a champion who no one sees as a star who resents the promotion.  Here's an idea, promote all champions as stars.  Not all of the are going to look like fashion models, some of them are going to be more popular than others, but if a champion strings together a few title defenses they'll gain a following.  Even if you can't promote a show with a Demetrious Johnson as the headliner, you'll have someone you can put in co-main that people take seriously.  Right now the only two "champions" they have that people are willing to pay to see are Jon Jones and Conor McGregor.  One of those dudes may do cocaine before he fights again, and the other is trying to fight Floyd Mayweather in a whole different sport.  Cormier and Bisping have a following, and Stipe seems like he's starting to catch on, but every other champion is essentially anonymous to the general public.

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Yeah they should be rolling out the red carpet for Holloway after the Aldo win.  Dude just beat down one of the best fighters ever and he also has one of the best win streaks ever.  They should be promoting a Holloway a lot more.

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1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

Ray Borg has missed weight twice at flyweight.  So there is just as good of a chance of him not making weight if not more.

I don't like the Dillashaw fight.  However, UFC has no obligation to make Johnson breaking the title record easy for him.  Their job is to promote fights and book Johnson in a fight.  Johnson is making the mistake of trying to pick and choose his fights.  Yeah someone getting to 11 title defenses is pretty outstanding, but why does the UFC have to guarantee victory for Johnson?  They don't.  This is still combat sports.  It's not WWE.  They don't have to book him so he gets the easiest fight possible to break the record..  

The whole job is to make the most lucrative fights possible. The problem is there isn't a bunch of lucrative fights possible especially below 155. None of these people are legitimately and some haven't tried to promote themselves at all during their UFC career. The UFC presser they had before UFC 211 was perhaps the best illustration of how promoting yourself could portend to people having interesting in your fight. Kevin Lee and Michael Chiesa were perhaps doing some WWE schtick but they got more attention on their fight than anything possible beforehand. That was a quality fight to hardcores. However, it needed to be something more to get people to actually watch. They gave DJ several chances to do that and he chose not to do that. Good for him, but that is coming back to haunt him.

1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

Then again, its strange to me the UFC went so hard for the Ray Borg fight going by Johnson's statement anyway.

There is validity to the marketing point.  The UFC and WME-IMG don't get behind certain guys and don't market all the big guys like they should.  Max Holloway hasn't gotten a fraction of the promotion that Sage Northcutt or Paige VanZant has.  I have no problem with those two getting the attention they have.  They are decent fighters and they are marketable.  But why hasn't the marketing department given any shine to Max Holloway at all?  I see him at the press conferences and he seems like money.  The guy is taking everyone's scalp at featherweight and then he wears badass gold and platinum ties.  

Sage and PVZ are bad examples because Dana found Sage (through Mick Maynard in Legacy) and the UFC had to be convinced to put PVZ in fights (by Dave Meltzer of all people) to be on television. Once Sage kinda hit a wall, they pretty much gave up on him and this was pre WME-IMG. Same with Paige. The only reason Sage still has a job as he adds novelty to some of their undercards. He still gets clicks and views for whatever he does. You have Chrissy Teigen tweeting at him and talking about him. Paige gets mentions because the people who run DWTS wanted her to be on the show. WWE wanted her to do Summerslam. The UFC didn't fucking pimp those two out. Those outlets wanted them. They've done a great job at marketing themselves because Sage is his own character. So is Paige. You're right...they're marketable. That's why Sage still has a job when he should probably be a regional superstar in LFA. And that's the whole point. THEY'RE MARKETABLE. Every superstar in UFC history has been marketable from the get go. Brock was marketable in OVW. Chuck fit a certain demo for the tough wannabe white guy demo. Randy was the All-American dad guy who had a great foil in both Chuck and Tito. Everyone told UFC they should sign Conor during his run in Cage Warriors. It didn't take a genius to know Rousey was marketable. The UFC did a lot of great work amplifying these people, but they never built people from the ground up. They give a platform to these folks, and the other 60 or 70 percent on the fighter. There have been fighters (you can even include pro wrestling) who sold more for several decades because they had a natural charisma about themselves that transcended what they were doing. Being the best fighter or worker in the business has traditionally never been the biggest catalyst for why someone was a big superstar.  Winky Wright and Bernard Hopkins never sold as many PPVs as Oscar de la Hoya. Ricardo Lopez never was as big a draw as Mike Tyson. You can go back several decades in boxing and pro wrestling. Yeah, you're always going to get some hidden gems along the way. But those are the exceptions to the rule.

1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

My point is this.  Invest a little more money into promoting and marketing some of the other potential superstars they have. 

They've invested a lot of money into promoting people. They've done the UFC Insider, commercials, different ads, countdown shows, Road to the Octagon, different pressers, highlight packages, a bunch of Embeddeds, a ton of Fight Pass content, social media content, etc. If people like me and some of the other folks here are the only ones watching a lot of this stuff, it won't matter if they put MORE money into this. They might as well be burning money because the average customer only really consumes live fights.

31 minutes ago, supremebve said:

The UFC has pretty much decided who is and isn't marketable

When you have 550-600 fighters, that's kinda your job in a nutshell. There is a reason you have jobbers and mid carders on a pro wrestling show. We're long past having seven and eight fights on a bi-monthly card.

None of what I've read gives me any inclination that the UFC promotes DJ less than anyone else. 

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If you want an example of a real World Champion who wasn't marketable, well, Boxing was desperate for a White World Heavyweight Champion for years. Decades. Then they got two at once, brothers even, and nobody cared (outside of Germany)  because they were really boring.

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24 minutes ago, AxB said:

If you want an example of a real World Champion who wasn't marketable, well, Boxing was desperate for a White World Heavyweight Champion for years. Decades. Then they got two at once, brothers even, and nobody cared (outside of Germany)  because they were really boring.

That's just the stigma and bizarre, overblown talking point though. A lot of the Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko fights post Olympics were straight up demolition jobs. They had a high KO percentage for a reason. Pre-Emanuel Steward Wladimir was hittable as shit and thus why Vitali had to avenge his brother's losses. When Lennox Lewis went on his run, the Tyson rabid fanbase rebelled against him being champion and especially after Lewis pummeled Tyson in the actual fight. They thought Lewis was a paper champion and boring except he was neither. They thought David Tua was going to beat him, they ate that shit up, and Tua didn't do jackshit against Lennox Lewis. Once Lewis retired, that pretty much left Don King to his own devices and his stable of fat, bloated retreads and hype jobs kinda flipped the heavyweight division upside down. Don King was able to kinda control the rankings and matchmaking for most of the division. Once the Klitschkos came over in the mid-00s and Wladimir kinda cleaned up his game a little, there wasn't a whole bunch meat left on that bone. They destroyed pretty much everyone and the fact there was no legitimate guys thought to be able to dethrone hurt them a lot. Sam Peter? Nope. Shannon Briggs? Nope. Eddie Chambers? Nope. Tony Thompson and his long genie pants? Nope. Tomasz Adamek? Nope. The shell of Hasim Rahman? Nope. David Haye? Not even close. They beat the dogshit out of damn near everyone. Sure, you had the Sultan Ibragimov fights and whatnot but it wasn't their fault everyone else sucked.

More importantly, the hope was for a White AMERICAN heavyweight. No one was clamoring for a Francois Botha or Chauncy Welliver heavyweight title run. The Klitschkos weren't ever going to be accepted the way that a Tommy Morrison or a Joe Mesi was when they were around. That's why they had to bust out like Tye Fields who got his paper chin smoked by Monte Barrett of all people. 

Another thing is, at least stateside, the Klitschkos always had good ratings whenever they were on HBO World Championship especially in recent years and these were fights against not the steepest competition.

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I feel for DJ, but he honestly should know the game by now. I used to have the mindset that UFC would be better off if they were able to market their fighters better. That thinking was flawed though. With a few exceptions, UFC is the brand to promote, not every single fighter who is on a streak or is even someone like DJ. It just seems like a dumb gamble to waste a lot of marketing time and money on someone, let's just say DJ in this example, who is bound to lose at some point. He may even lose his next fight. So what good does it do to hype up someone like DJ to pull in extra viewers when he might lose? That further destroys his credibility along with UFC's. Hey, watch the best pound for pound fighter in the world! And then that guy gets dropped. No one knows the guy that just won, they just know that the champion with all of this hype lost.

To make matters worse, DJ doesn't have 1/10th of the ability that Conor or Jones have to talk their ways out of a loss or, in Jones' case, a suspension. The damage control is practically non-existent. So what you're basically left with is a fighter who can't talk to promote himself to begin with who has a track record of not being any kind of a draw and no ability to talk himself up after a potential loss.

I do think UFC could do a better job with getting more out of some of their fighters though. I'm biased, but Stipe is one of them. He has a great personality and is a dominant champion. Max may be another guy like that. For as many rare individuals that are like that and are worth some sort of marketing push, there's 5, maybe 10 others that aren't. DJ falls in that camp.

That's why over the long run it's better for UFC to promote the brand and market that so that the brand stays strong even when some of their top fighters aren't. 

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My main gripe with DJ is he decided to flip the switch the other way. By that, I mean the inverse of someone turning their real personality up a few levels like a pro wrestling gimmick. Sure, he can't talk like Conor but he has shown an ability to talk but only in front of the media privately. When DJ fought Horiguchi IIRC, there were a few media members who described DJ as one of those Dominick Cruz types who is just very intelligent and who can convey that he is the best fighter around. The problem is once the cameras come on, it's Mr. Super Humble, I Just Train Really Hard, and Every Opponent is Tough. That shit works for GSP, but even then, it's wearing thin because it comes off some type of media training. How can you talk about the UFC not marketing you and you outwardly refuse to market yourself? I get being non confrontational, but you need to understand that there is a big tradeoff. There is only so many ways and superlatives the UFC can use to articulate someone is the best pound-for-pound fighter. At best, you have to meet the company half way in terms of building yourself and your brand. Whether he loses or not, that can happen at anytime for any fighter. However if the company and fighter (champion or up and coming contender) aren't in alignment to make whatever momentum they have work, everything in the star making process is all for naught.

All this fire and vigor he has about dealing with the UFC, where the fuck is that when he is fighting someone? That would actually help some PPV shows and get some decent TV ratings.

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

Surprising, wonder how that affects Megan headlining Invicta 24 on 7/15. I know both have talked back and forth about it for awhile and I love Megan, but I still can't see that fight going well for her.

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14 minutes ago, DreamBroken said:

Surprising, wonder how that affects Megan headlining Invicta 24 on 7/15. I know both have talked back and forth about it for awhile and I love Megan, but I still can't see that fight going well for her.

The thing is...what does another fight in Invicta do for her career overall? She is getting the call up sooner than later. Being on UFC 214 does a lot more for her career more than a Fight Pass stream. They can at least build her by showing clips from her past fights and touting her as the courageous person who stepped up to fight Cyborg unlike everyone else. Holm didn't want to fight Cyborg. Germaine didn't want to fight Cyborg. Nunes didn't want to fight Cyborg. Zingano didn't want to fight Cyborg. However, this prospect who has risen in Invicta stepped up to the plate and wants to do what no one else seemingly can't do: Beat Cris Cyborg. Win or lose, it helps her out.

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