MarcosLoura Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Mance... no... Also no Aegon? This shit is gonna get weird. Still amused though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The whole prophecy thing is do dumb. Probably should've taken that as the first sign George was slipping. By that point, Cersei already had well-defined, character-based motivations for being the way she is, but, nope, now it's all explained by a PROPHECY~!!! from childhood. Gimme a break. Suddenly, there's the guy who made his millions skewering fantasy tropes is indulging in some of the worst shit of the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The whole prophecy thing is do dumb. Probably should've taken that as the first sign George was slipping. By that point, Cersei already had well-defined, character-based motivations for being the way she is, but, nope, now it's all explained by a PROPHECY~!!! from childhood. Gimme a break. Suddenly, there's the guy who made his millions skewering fantasy tropes is indulging in some of the worst shit of the genre. Is your complaint that there is a prophecy that is pointed out as a prophecy or that there are prophecies at all? Because there are prophecies are all over the books. Some of them are subtle, like the bear skull over Craster's Keep, but there are prophecies all throughout from the beginning of Game of Thrones(book not show). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Not to mention the whole White Walkers, and Three Dragon's thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I'm okay with them changing shit. The show's great, and it means it ruins the forthcoming books less. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Why did they drop the Valonquar bit from Cersei's prophecy? That's the most important part of it, no? I think they are going to reveal it later, no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The whole prophecy thing is do dumb. Probably should've taken that as the first sign George was slipping. By that point, Cersei already had well-defined, character-based motivations for being the way she is, but, nope, now it's all explained by a PROPHECY~!!! from childhood. Gimme a break. Suddenly, there's the guy who made his millions skewering fantasy tropes is indulging in some of the worst shit of the genre. Is your complaint that there is a prophecy that is pointed out as a prophecy or that there are prophecies at all? Because there are prophecies are all over the books. Some of them are subtle, like the bear skull over Craster's Keep, but there are prophecies all throughout from the beginning of Game of Thrones(book not show).I really just hate this specific type of prophecy, the kind that are supposed to retroactively explain a character's actions. It's just stupid and, in this case, needless and cheapens the character.The Cersei thing is an especially bad example, because her actions aren't even wholly consistent with someone who's haunted by and trying to avert her prophesied future. If she's trying to short-circuit, or at least disprove, the prophecy, then the easiest thing to do - the one thing she actually had complete control over - would have been to, you know, have a child with Robert. Yet she spent the entirety of their marriage actively avoiding that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The whole prophecy thing is do dumb. Probably should've taken that as the first sign George was slipping. By that point, Cersei already had well-defined, character-based motivations for being the way she is, but, nope, now it's all explained by a PROPHECY~!!! from childhood. Gimme a break. Suddenly, there's the guy who made his millions skewering fantasy tropes is indulging in some of the worst shit of the genre. Is your complaint that there is a prophecy that is pointed out as a prophecy or that there are prophecies at all? Because there are prophecies are all over the books. Some of them are subtle, like the bear skull over Craster's Keep, but there are prophecies all throughout from the beginning of Game of Thrones(book not show).I really just hate this specific type of prophecy, the kind that are supposed to retroactively explain a character's actions. It's just stupid and, in this case, needless and cheapens the character.The Cersei thing is an especially bad example, because her actions aren't even wholly consistent with someone who's haunted by and trying to avert her prophesied future. If she's trying to short-circuit, or at least disprove, the prophecy, then the easiest thing to do - the one thing she actually had complete control over - would have been to, you know, have a child with Robert. Yet she spent the entirety of their marriage actively avoiding that. I get that, but Cersei is fucking nuts and that prophecy is just an excuse for her to behave more irrationally. Trying to understand her logic is impossible, because her decision making isn't based on anything but her own obsessiveness, ambition and/or paranoia. The prophecy is probably unnecessary, but I don't know how else he could have conveyed her squirrel shit nuttiness. Her decision to latch onto that prophecy is arbitrary at best, and her actions do more to make the prophecy come true than to avoid it. She most likely killed her friend making that part come true. She is constantly making enemies which puts her children in danger. She wouldn't conceive a child with Robert, and she treated the "little brother" she thought would be her death like you would treat someone if you wanted them to come back and strangle you. In her mind she decided to base her life on this prophecy, but in reality she only uses the prophecy as an excuse to make her irrational decisions. Part of me thinks that he added the prophecy as a tribute to how his readers read into every detail of his story. We take every little thing in the text and try to figure out how it leads to our favorite characters gaining the Iron Throne, Cersei took everything Maggy said and tried to put it all together to make sure she keeps her power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 But that's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of cheapening a character. For all that Cersei did through the first three books, she was never crazy. She was wicked, for sure. Petty and resentful, rash and vengeful, conniving, murderous. A lot of things. But never crazy. Until you find out that much of her decision making is driven by her intense paranoia related to this prophecy. That's more than a little crazy, and it fundamentally alters the character in a way that makes her less interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 But that's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of cheapening a character. For all that Cersei did through the first three books, she was never crazy. She was wicked, for sure. Petty and resentful, rash and vengeful, conniving, murderous. A lot of things. But never crazy. Until you find out that much of her decision making is driven by her intense paranoia related to this prophecy. That's more than a little crazy, and it fundamentally alters the character in a way that makes her less interesting. I disagree, she was crazy we just didn't know. Everything she did before we knew she was crazy makes more sense after we know that she is crazy. We all assumed she had some sort of grand plan before we got her perspective. Once we read from her point of view, we realized that there is no plan there is just a crazy woman doing everything she can to keep her power. She wasn't making those decisions because she was smart, she was making those decisions because she thought everyone was out to get her. It just happened that most of those people were out to get her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Well, she also didn't go full on bat shit until Joffery and Tywin got offed back to back, she believes by Tyrion (if only half true), along with Magery's moving forward in gaining more power looking like the prophecy is coming true that drives her over teh edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I always liked the idea that Cersei thought she was so smart but actually was not; like a B level Bond villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 But that's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of cheapening a character. For all that Cersei did through the first three books, she was never crazy. She was wicked, for sure. Petty and resentful, rash and vengeful, conniving, murderous. A lot of things. But never crazy. Until you find out that much of her decision making is driven by her intense paranoia related to this prophecy. That's more than a little crazy, and it fundamentally alters the character in a way that makes her less interesting. I disagree, she was crazy we just didn't know. Everything she did before we knew she was crazy makes more sense after we know that she is crazy. But it doesn't really make more sense, though. It just makes sense in a different, more reductive (read: lesser, simplistic) way.All of her previous actions made perfect sense viewed through the prism of her own character flaws (as we understood them at the time), her upbringing, her place in the world, relationships, etc. The prophecy was not some narrative skeleton key that was necessary to understanding it all. If anything, it makes some of her actions less sensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I read it that she basically lost her damn mind after seeing her son murdered in front of her, and then start focusing on the half forgotten prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 But that's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of cheapening a character. For all that Cersei did through the first three books, she was never crazy. She was wicked, for sure. Petty and resentful, rash and vengeful, conniving, murderous. A lot of things. But never crazy. Until you find out that much of her decision making is driven by her intense paranoia related to this prophecy. That's more than a little crazy, and it fundamentally alters the character in a way that makes her less interesting. I disagree, she was crazy we just didn't know. Everything she did before we knew she was crazy makes more sense after we know that she is crazy.But it doesn't really make more sense, though. It just makes sense in a different, more reductive (read: lesser, simplistic) way.All of her previous actions made perfect sense viewed through the prism of her own character flaws (as we understood them at the time), her upbringing, her place in the world, relationships, etc. The prophecy was not some narrative skeleton key that was necessary to understanding it all. If anything, it makes some of her actions less sensible. Have you done any rereads? I'm midway through Clash of Kings for the 3rd time and knowing that Cersei is crazy has actually made all the tantrums she throws make a lot more sense. It is fairly clear that everyone other than Grandmaester Pycelle and Lancel kind of ignore her, because they know nothing she says or does makes any sense. Tyrion comes in and changes all types of shit and not only does everyone fall in line, but they straight up don't follow her orders. When Tyrion locked up Pycelle, she ordered a random guardsman to release him and he flat out told her no. She tried to get him arrested for treason, and no one would arrest him. There is a reason Tywin sent Tyrion, who he clearly hates, to Kings Landing in his place. It is because Cersei is not capable of making sane decisions. She didn't become crazy after Joffrey died, she is a raving lunatic well before that. I didn't realize it upon my first read, but once you know she's insane a lot of her behavior pops out on the reread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I wholeheartedly agree with using Bronn instead of Ser Silent as Jamie's traveling buddy, even if its them heading to Dorne instead of mopping up Riverlands resistance. Fuck if I know where the Sansa/Brienne line are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I'm thrilled Jaime is doing anything but going to the Riverlands. That whole stretch was boring as fuck. It'll be interesting to see where they slot him in, though. Will they have him show up in Sunspear and be the one to find maimed Myrcella, OR will they be even bolder and sub him in for Hotah as the one who busts up the kidnapping plot? That could be interesting. It definitely looks like they've subbed in Ellaria for Arianne, and they'll probably sub in the Sand Snakes as her co-conspirators. Obara will probably take the Darkstar role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Yeah, I have no clue where anything is going with half this stuff now. It's kind of awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Hate to be that guy, but am I the only one worried about these changes? Why the fuck would Littlefinger take Sansa out of the Vale and stop at a local inn with someone wanted for regicide. Brienne then yells out, "SANSA STARK, why are you here in this crowded inn surrounded by strangers who may or may not run back to King's Landing telling everyone you are hanging out with Petyr Baelish and send an army to avenge the king?" How did any of these people expect this to work? Where exactly is this inn? Is it in the Vale? They left the Vale, which is completely surrounded by mountains so odds are they are in the Riverlands? The Riverlands isn't exactly a vacation destination these days, it is war torn and put to the flame. Not only that, almost everyone in the Riverlands would either be trying to steal Sansa for the Lannisters or the Starks. No one with a brain would ride through the Riverlands with 10 or so knights with one of the most wanted people in the Seven Kingdoms. Isn't the point of being at the Vale the fact that it is out of the way, where no one could come visit without getting through the Bloody Gate? Them galavanting through the Riverlands is stupid, but stopping at a crowded inn is more stupid for words. Everyone from the Lannister army, the leftovers of the Stark and Tully armies, and the Brotherhood Without Banners would have heard about this fight and killed Littlefinger and took Sansa before the sun went down. So Jaime can't take an army to Dorne, because that would be an act of war...but kidnapping a princess is all good. How does he expect to get into Dorne unnoticed, and how does he plan on getting out of Dorne after he takes her? Dorne, much like the Vale, is so remote no one could get there without being seen. Let's suppose that him and Bronn could get there without being seen, how do they leave? If Myrcella goes missing, everyone will know. You think that no one will notice the dude with a solid gold hand? Dorne is basically Mordor, one does not just walk into Dorne. That is the dumbest plan ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I think there's less concern about going to war with Dorne, so much as wanting to have Myrcella safely out of Dorne before the inevitable war begins. As far as the question of how is concerned...Well, that's where the drama, the fun, of a heist storyline comes from - HOW are the protagonists going to pull off the heist against seemingly insurmountable odds? Tune in next week to find out, kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 The Littlefinger/Sansa stuff was odd to me as well. I get that the Lords of the Vale now know who she is, but I have trouble believing that anyone else would. I doubt Littlefinger trusts the knights enough to let them know who she truly is, even if they are escorting them? Dark Sansa continues to rule, though. Brienne yelling it like an idiot was dumb as well. She's never been portrayed as the brightest, but if she'd approached that any other way, she could have talked her way into Petyr's service or something. Instead she decides to set off every alarm she can find. I'm less upset about Jaime being routed towards Dorne, rather than the Riverlands, mostly because the RL's are dull as all hell. I wonder if this means that they're never gonna update us on what happened with Edmure and the Blackfish after the Wedding. I found it slightly sad that the "Water" Gardens was turned into just another garden for the young folk to stroll through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 The location they're using for the Water Gardens is the Alcazar in Seville - which is the biggest tourist attraction in the city, and used get up to 7000 visitors a day, before it was in Game of Thrones. Like as not it'll get more now. Thrones tourism is a big deal in Belfast and Dubrovnik. Not so much in Iceland, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 The only conclusion I could come up with for the Littlefinger-Sansa excursion is that they don't fear the Lannisters at all since Tywin is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 The location they're using for the Water Gardens is the Alcazar in Seville - which is the biggest tourist attraction in the city, and used get up to 7000 visitors a day, before it was in Game of Thrones. Like as not it'll get more now. Thrones tourism is a big deal in Belfast and Dubrovnik. Not so much in Iceland, though. That may be, but its Doran's garden and he wishes all these kids would quit getting dressed up and having talks of betrayal in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 The only conclusion I could come up with for the Littlefinger-Sansa excursion is that they don't fear the Lannisters at all since Tywin is dead. Which is silly and strangely cavalier for Littlefinger. But the show has built up more than enough goodwill that I'm willing to see where it goes. Not fearing the Lannisters is one thing, but the Freys and Boltons are still running around too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now