Patrick B. Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 If you're truly talented, you can lose and find a way to stay over. That seems to be the booking philosophy for about 99% of the roster these days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilwaldo Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Well, yeah. Someone has to win and lose. It's a fake sport. How is that a problem? If you're truly talented, you can lose and find a way to stay over. I respectfully disagree with the bold. This is true in some (limited) cases: Heel finally getting comeuppance at the end of a long feud with a face, legend, comedy character or underdog character. However, you don't typically build guys up by having them lose. If the idea is to build Ryback as a monster, he loses his aura the second he starts losing with regularity. You can't just stay over while losing if you're being built up...you have to get to the point where you've been built before losing hurts less. And if you're going to lose, it needs to be a loss that gets you more over instead of a standard loss. I doubt WWE is serious about pushing Ryback, so he'll be the fall guy for this feud, but this idea that wins and losses don't matter to the crowd is both pervasive and confusing to me. At some point they have to lose. If they are a strong character then they can keep their heat. Ryback does not need a huge buildup because we know him already. We know what he is capable of. As for wins and losses, does anyone actually keep records in terms of wins and losses including house shows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Well, yeah. Someone has to win and lose. It's a fake sport. How is that a problem? If you're truly talented, you can lose and find a way to stay over. I respectfully disagree with the bold. This is true in some (limited) cases: Heel finally getting comeuppance at the end of a long feud with a face, legend, comedy character or underdog character. However, you don't typically build guys up by having them lose. If the idea is to build Ryback as a monster, he loses his aura the second he starts losing with regularity. You can't just stay over while losing if you're being built up...you have to get to the point where you've been built before losing hurts less. And if you're going to lose, it needs to be a loss that gets you more over instead of a standard loss. I doubt WWE is serious about pushing Ryback, so he'll be the fall guy for this feud, but this idea that wins and losses don't matter to the crowd is both pervasive and confusing to me. At some point they have to lose. If they are a strong character then they can keep their heat. Ryback does not need a huge buildup because we know him already. We know what he is capable of. As for wins and losses, does anyone actually keep records in terms of wins and losses including house shows? Beating up jobbers, but getting wiped out by CM Punk and then losing a bunch of tag matches? If what we know about him as of now is what's important, why should anyone believe he can beat Rusev? Of course, the point is that Ryback is theoretically supposed to be better than that, but this re-push to make him better than that doesn't work if he's losing a feud basically out of the gate. You're right that at some point, every wrestler must lose. For Ryback, this isn't that point, ideally. Most fans don't keep numerical records, but crowds notice when guys win a ton or lose a ton in general, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilwaldo Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 But will fans care if they are entertained? Therein lies the key. A well written storyline allows for that. Right now it makes more sense for Rusev to run through every major wrestler his size to build him up. He goes over Ryback, so what? You give Ryback two weeks of wins afterwards and everyone forgets that he lost to Rusev because both guys have moved on. The WWE is going for a USA vs. Russia theme which is playing out in the press. Vince is doing a classic wrestling promotion that he has used countless times in the past. At some point Rusev will lose in a huge PPV to the top face in the company. But for now all of the big, physical faces need to job to Rusev to build him up as this monster face. Ryback loses and then gets a couple of wins afterwards. In a couple of months nobody will care either way. If you really want to get silly about records here is Ryback's record from the profightdb. http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/ryback-3020.html?prom_id=2 Since 10-27 Ryback has a record of something like 24-1. I think he can lose to Rusev and nobody would notice. We are talking about one PPV match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bink_winkleman Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I think you guys are all underestimating the effects of Ryback getting called "steroid guy" and a threat to work with. I just saw the show and came to this thread because the main event was so amazing and so much better than anything on the PPV that I was excited to see everyone else marking out over it. Alas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 That is the issue. No one will remember in a couple months. Sami Zayn lost key matches, but everyone remembers those losses and he stayed over because he was booked extremely well; his losses DID matter a whole lot, and NXT made damn sure everyone knew it. Ryback will lose and look less like a monster, and no one will care that he lost or care about him since he was just beaten by Rusev when he is supposed to be showing that he is a monster who is on a roll. It doesn't matter in the sense that Ryback probably is a marginal talent overall, but it indicates the broken philosophy in how WWE books the pieces of their main roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Even if you don't care for Ryback, (and I don't,) it matters because the same people who couldn't get Ryback right won't get Zayn right either. The fact that Zayn >>>>> Ryback might allow him to overcome that, but he's stepping up to the plate with a strike in his count, two if you believe the RUMBLINGZ that say Vince just sees Zayn as some indy flippy-do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w. josh Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 The problem with the whole brass ring/"guys should get themselves over" viewpoint is that WWE is going to need new guys on top soon. That's not a luxury, it's a necessity. They can't keep relying on Cena and bringing back veterans for Wrestlemania matches. At a certain point, they need permanent in-ring replacements for Cena, HHH, Taker, Rock, Brock, Jericho, Show, and Kane (and Bryan and Punk, for that matter), in the same roster positions. The constant treadmill booking and "eh, we'll just get somebody over when we need to" attitude has wasted a whole bunch of potential top guys in the past few years - guys who seemed like big deals but got exposed by the even-steven booking, losing streaks, and "give 'em a crap gimmick and see how they respond" policies. Yes, every one of those guys had some flaw that could be pointed to, but again - at a certain point, they physically need to replace the veterans who have already started or are going to start breaking down over the next couple of years. At some point, just waiting for guys to break through to the next level without any help from the booking has to be seen as an unsuccessful approach. So far, they've done a great job of protecting Reigns, Rollins, and arguably Rusev, setting them up as future top guys and separating them from the pack. Ambrose and Wyatt are already in danger of falling back into the midcard glut due to booking, but have enough of a connection with the crowd that they're probably safe for now. Cesaro and Ryback are exactly the kind of guys that get hurt by poor booking - they've got one or two weaknesses that need to be protected by the writers, but instead the storytelling keeps reinforcing those weaknesses. Blaming them for the weaknesses while defending the writers who get paid to minimize them makes no sense to me. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Is there anything wrong with Ryback putting over Rusev? That's pretty clearly where they are headed with this. Aren't they going towards Rusev vs. The Rock for WrestleMania? Or they're going to get to Rusev vs. Cena. This is building to an Unstoppable Russian Monster Vs. American Hero match at WrestleMania. Rusev and Ryback beat the hell out of each other. The feud lasts to Elimination Chamber, probably. Rusev wins and heads towards an upper-card match against one of the biggest stars in the company where he and Lana finally get their comeuppance. I don't see what's the problem with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Is there anything wrong with Ryback putting over Rusev? That's pretty clearly where they are headed with this. Aren't they going towards Rusev vs. The Rock for WrestleMania? Or they're going to get to Rusev vs. Cena. This is building to an Unstoppable Russian Monster Vs. American Hero match at WrestleMania. Rusev and Ryback beat the hell out of each other. The feud lasts to Elimination Chamber, probably. Rusev wins and heads towards an upper-card match against one of the biggest stars in the company where he and Lana finally get their comeuppance. I don't see what's the problem with that. Honestly I do, more in that Rusev's big loss should put someone else over, especially if the US belt is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewar Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I agree with that. Rusev's big first pin/submission loss should not come at the hands of Cena or Orton. It needs to be used to add fuel to another fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offspring515 Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 If Reigns is the man after Mania I'd keep Rusev undefeated until they feud at Summerslam or Mania 32. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I don't see a problem with using Ryback to help get/keep Rusev looking unbeatable at all. I do think that it's probably a waste of Ryback to some degree, but it's not such an obvious waste of Ryback that I'm up in arms over it. However, the idea that wins and losses don't matter is just wrong; this is the same philosophy that the company has, which is why they have such a hard time getting or keeping guys over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Is there anything wrong with Ryback putting over Rusev? That's pretty clearly where they are headed with this. Aren't they going towards Rusev vs. The Rock for WrestleMania? Or they're going to get to Rusev vs. Cena. This is building to an Unstoppable Russian Monster Vs. American Hero match at WrestleMania. Rusev and Ryback beat the hell out of each other. The feud lasts to Elimination Chamber, probably. Rusev wins and heads towards an upper-card match against one of the biggest stars in the company where he and Lana finally get their comeuppance. I don't see what's the problem with that. Gregg, I'm usually in your boat, man, but how can you not see the problem with feeding everyone on the roster to Rusev and then feeding Rusev to Cena? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Because that's the story. There is one man Rusev can't beat. I mean, we don't like Cena. But the kids do. They want a Superman. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewar Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 What if Rusev ends up getting fed to Reigns? Is everything okay in that circumstance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 If this was 1987 and it was Rusev vs. Hogan, would anyone care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 At least feeding Rusev to Reigns would help establish Reigns's bonafides as a top-level star. Feeding Rusev to Cena does nothing for anyone. If the kids need to see Cena beat someone threatening, they can just use Show again or something. It'll be new to those guys. EDIT: If it was 1987 and DVDVR were around, we'd all be bitching about Paul Orndorff not getting a run with the belt and wishing that they'd let Savage beat Rusev instead to really establish the former as a main eventer. Maybe I shouldn't speak for DVDVR...*I* would be bitching about that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 What if Rusev ends up getting fed to Reigns? Is everything okay in that circumstance? It is fine with me. He is the next guy they want to pull the trigger on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Because that's the story. There is one man Rusev can't beat. I mean, we don't like Cena. But the kids do. They want a Superman. And they have their Superman already. If they put Reigns in the slot instead of Cena they could have two Supermen. It's just short-sighted to do "Cena wins lol" in every circumstance - it doesn't help Cena look any more badass, it makes Rusev look weak because he isn't a monster if he just jobs to Cena like everyone else, and it kills Ryback dead (again) because he can't stop losing matches. And if you really think Ryback losing all the time didn't destroy his heat, go back and listen to some of the crowd reactions to Rybaxel vs. the huge reactions he got upon his return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggulator Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I also think Ryback sorta sucks. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Well shit. If Gregg says someone sorta sucks, you know he is god-awful. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebbie Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Lol @ at people thinking Rusev's act has any gas after he gets beaten the first time. It isn't like he's Umaga and has a Jeff Hardy to have automatically good matches with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w. josh Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 I have no problem at all with Rusev going over Ryback...as long as it isn't Cena (or the Rock) that finally beats him. If it's Cena, all it does is reinforce for the millionth time that no one else is on his level. Let Reigns, Ambrose, or Wyatt (or Sami Zayn - god, that would be a fun match) be the guy to finally beat the unstoppable evil Russian, and you cement that guy as the next big thing while possibly setting up a long-term rivalry as well. Let a guy who isn't likely to be a full-time worker in 3-4 years do it, and you're just telling everybody, once again, that the last generation of stars is still head and shoulders above the next one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 What if Rusev ends up getting fed to Reigns? Is everything okay in that circumstance? It is fine with me. He is the next guy they want to pull the trigger on. Wait till Reigns gets the Title first and let it be Rusevs first title shot. I wants watched Raw or SD on a cosistant basis since mania bUt there was a battle Royal back around june where they were that last 2 and the crowd ate it up. They did face each other once or twice over the summer but i think that match is still fresh so I'd keep these guys apart from each other until a big show instead of giving it away for free on TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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