The 59th Superb Owl

[BloodyChamp]

5 hours ago, supremebve said:

For me, I can seperate the fact that Brady had the best career, but I think Mahomes is a better player.  Mahomes threw 50 TDs the first time he had the opportunity to play and is probably the most talented thrower of a football that we've ever seen.  He may never catch Brady as far as accomplishments go, but he's better than him at pretty much everything you could want a quarterback to do.  Do you guys remember back in the day when we used to argue about Montana and Elway/Marino.  Elway and Marino were always the much more talented players, but Montana had all the hardware.  Mahomes is both.  He's the most talented and has the most hardware. 

Mahomes also has the breaks. That doesn’t mean he didn’t earn what he has but he’s dang sure had some breaks. I agree though with the thinking here though. I would argue that there have been others just as talented though.

[supremebve]

13 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Well, Peyton Manning can. He was probably the worst quarterback in the NFL his last year and won the damn thing. 

 

Tou-motherfucking-che. He was the worst quarterback in the entire league that season.

[Tabe]

24 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Well, Peyton Manning can. He was probably the worst quarterback in the NFL his last year and won the damn thing. 

 

That version of Peyton is literally the worst quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl. Forget Trent Dilfer. Manning and his 9:17 TD:INT ratio and 67 rating are the worst ever. 

[Cobra Commander]

Brady playing until he was 45 really messes up the math for anybody trying to match him because no shortage of good QBs are going to be on their way out by 35

[Kevin Wilson]

I realize I am biased because of who I root for but I agree there should be a lot more to evaluating QBs then super bowl rings. Exception being someone like fucking Brady who won so many its hard to argue against him as the GOAT, with his one from Tampa Bay being the cherry on top. Plus all the other stuff he did. That being said I'm not convinced that Mahomes is better then Brady as a player and honestly its way too early to say anyway. Brady threw for over 5,000 yards at 44 years old which is the dumbest thing ever but actually happened so Mahomes at least needs another ten years at Top 5 level to be in the argument. I say all this as an eternal hater of Brady but I think between stats and rings he's untouchable, we should spend our time ranking people under him on the GOAT list as Mahomes still has a ways to go (and everyone else for that matter).

I understand the argument of "Brady had more weapons around him during his peak years" but it doesn't do much for me as 1. Brady made players weapons, and 2. we can't argue hypotheticals like "if Mahomes had ____ he would have done _____". But I am curious to see what KC does, are they aggressive to improve the line and give him a better RB and WR or do they think the offense is good enough to run it back with only minor tweaks. I also think the argument could be made for Marino being the best passer/player but its an impossible argument one way or the other. 

[supremebve]

12 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

Brady playing until he was 45 really messes up the math for anybody trying to match him because no shortage of good QBs are going to be on their way out by 35

This is a big part of my Brady has the best career, but Mahomes is a better player.  Brady was good for a long ass time, but for most of that time you could argue either Manning or Rodgers was better than him, especially if you judge on a year-to-year basis.  Brady's brilliance is that he kind of had three different careers.  The crazy thing about Brady is when he was at his absolute peak as a player, he didn't win anything.  Since Mahomes has been a starter, I don't think there is a quarterback I would want more than him.  He wasn't great this year, but still felt inevitable for the entire season.  Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen seemed to be playing a different sport than everyone else, but when the clock struck zero Mahomes won every game except for the Buffalo first game and the Super Bowl.  Not only that, it's always him.  If the game is close, he's going to win, he always does.  

[Cobra Commander]

Yeah for whatever reason, longevity for QBs is valued a little more than other positions.

Andrew Luck is six years younger than Aaron Rodgers and Luck retired 6 years ago

[Tabe]

11 hours ago, supremebve said:

This is a big part of my Brady has the best career, but Mahomes is a better player.  Brady was good for a long ass time, but for most of that time you could argue either Manning or Rodgers was better than him, especially if you judge on a year-to-year basis.  Brady's brilliance is that he kind of had three different careers.  The crazy thing about Brady is when he was at his absolute peak as a player, he didn't win anything.  Since Mahomes has been a starter, I don't think there is a quarterback I would want more than him.  He wasn't great this year, but still felt inevitable for the entire season.  Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen seemed to be playing a different sport than everyone else, but when the clock struck zero Mahomes won every game except for the Buffalo first game and the Super Bowl.  Not only that, it's always him.  If the game is close, he's going to win, he always does.  

This is a great summary. Physically, Mahomes is more gifted. He's got advantages on Brady in every area other than maybe accuracy. He's got the elite combo package of legs, arm strength, and accuracy that nobody outside of Steve Young has had. But Brady has won more and did it longer. So, yeah, your summary is accurate. 

I'm still probably taking Brady though. 

[BloodyChamp]

Copied and pasted from where I posted in the wrong topic 
 

Another thing that doesn’t get repeated enough is a certain product of the new era(s). I still say the new era altogether isn’t discussed enough with that stat inflation and the etc etc etc but the 1 thing in GOAT discussions is that the GOAT being discussed is often the slowest, weakest, most fragile player out there. I mean that just doesn’t make any sense. Brady could atleast escape this by saying Drew -we have a backup who can come in and run plays that I can’t- Brees played as long as he did, which didn’t ever make him the slowest one out there. Lookey there another break for Brady. If anybody gets more than Mahomes it’s him.

[Technico Support]

That’s something that’s being avoided in this conversation and it’s probably because it’s harder to quantify or nobody wants to discuss it and be labeled a conspiracy theorist or whatever, but Mahomes gets a shitload of favorable calls.  Brady got calls, too, but the amount of protection and push Mahomes gets from the league is on another level.  You get Aikman in the booth complaining about it because dudes were trying to kill him back in the day with no flags, meanwhile Mahomes fakes a slide/slides very late, gets grazed, and it’s a sea of yellow.  It’s hard to make honest comparisons when it’s clear that protecting and boosting superstar QBs has become the league’s #1 priority.

[Mister TV]

14 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

That’s something that’s being avoided in this conversation and it’s probably because it’s harder to quantify or nobody wants to discuss it and be labeled a conspiracy theorist or whatever, but Mahomes gets a shitload of favorable calls.  Brady got calls, too, but the amount of protection and push Mahomes gets from the league is on another level.  You get Aikman in the booth complaining about it because dudes were trying to kill him back in the day with no flags, meanwhile Mahomes fakes a slide/slides very late, gets grazed, and it’s a sea of yellow.  It’s hard to make honest comparisons when it’s clear that protecting and boosting superstar QBs has become the league’s #1 priority.

I think the only real difference in the protection of Mahomes & Brady, is that Mahomes is protected when he becomes a runner, Brady never ran like Mahomes and if he did the NFL would have protected him in the same way. 

[supremebve]

37 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

That’s something that’s being avoided in this conversation and it’s probably because it’s harder to quantify or nobody wants to discuss it and be labeled a conspiracy theorist or whatever, but Mahomes gets a shitload of favorable calls.  Brady got calls, too, but the amount of protection and push Mahomes gets from the league is on another level.  You get Aikman in the booth complaining about it because dudes were trying to kill him back in the day with no flags, meanwhile Mahomes fakes a slide/slides very late, gets grazed, and it’s a sea of yellow.  It’s hard to make honest comparisons when it’s clear that protecting and boosting superstar QBs has become the league’s #1 priority.

This is revisionist. They changed the rules to protect Tom Brady. Every time someone tackled him without getting penalized, he'd get up and berate the refs. If you were watching the Super Bowl with the sound on, he even mentioned it on the broadcast. Mahomes gets a lot of calls, but nobody got more calls than Brady.  

[Technico Support]

17 minutes ago, supremebve said:

This is revisionist. They changed the rules to protect Tom Brady. Every time someone tackled him without getting penalized, he'd get up and berate the refs. If you were watching the Super Bowl with the sound on, he even mentioned it on the broadcast. Mahomes gets a lot of calls, but nobody got more calls than Brady.  

You know what, you're right, and @Mister TV makes a great point as well, that if Mahomes gets more calls than Brady did, it's because he's more mobile, which I hadn't considered. 

[supremebve]

I came across a graphic on Reddit, which I know won't embed, so I'll just describe it.  Statistical breakdown of Mahomes and Brady's first five Super Bowl appearances.

Mahomes:  212 dropbacks, 128/196, 1,328 yards, 10TDs/7INTs

Brady:  207 dropbacks, 127/197, 1,277 yards, 9TDs/2INTs

[Cobra Commander]

59 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

You know what, you're right, and @Mister TV makes a great point as well, that if Mahomes gets more calls than Brady did, it's because he's more mobile, which I hadn't considered. 

Mahomes has pulled off being a 6'2/225 QB who gets treated as smaller than he is because of all the 6'4/6'5 QBs out there.. 6'2/225 is basically the same size as a large-ish running back, even now, right? I don't think RB sizes has inflated as much as other positions since the 90s

some of the Mahomes debate feels like reliving the days of people debating Donovan McNabb if McNabb was way better

[DangerMark]

4 hours ago, supremebve said:

This is revisionist. They changed the rules to protect Tom Brady. Every time someone tackled him without getting penalized, he'd get up and berate the refs.

I could be wrong, but I remember him getting a Roughing The Passer call on a play he didn't even throw it. Mahomes dreams of that level of protection.

[Kevin Wilson]

On 2/12/2025 at 1:10 PM, supremebve said:

I came across a graphic on Reddit, which I know won't embed, so I'll just describe it.  Statistical breakdown of Mahomes and Brady's first five Super Bowl appearances.

Mahomes:  212 dropbacks, 128/196, 1,328 yards, 10TDs/7INTs

Brady:  207 dropbacks, 127/197, 1,277 yards, 9TDs/2INTs

This year's SB is an example of why I'm usually more a fan of the eyeball test then raw stats. Or I guess those EPA stats that I don't pretend to understand. The NFL YouTube channel put up a video of all of Mahomes' best plays during the Super Bowl - the score was already 34-0 before they could even find a highlight to start with. We all watched the game and know he was a complete dumpster fire until the Eagles started playing softer on defense and put in some backups. That's not to say Brady didn't do that too at some point as I don't have the game logs up, just that stats (in general) rarely tell the story. Also not to say Brady is so good he can't be compared to others.

The "don't dive at QB's knees" rule was also a "Brady Rule". But the NFL is making rules just for the Bills too so I can't say much.

[Brian Fowler]

1 hour ago, Kevin Wilson said:

This year's SB is an example of why I'm usually more a fan of the eyeball test then raw stats. Or I guess those EPA stats that I don't pretend to understand. The NFL YouTube channel put up a video of all of Mahomes' best plays during the Super Bowl - the score was already 34-0 before they could even find a highlight to start with. We all watched the game and know he was a complete dumpster fire until the Eagles started playing softer on defense and put in some backups. That's not to say Brady didn't do that too at some point as I don't have the game logs up, just that stats (in general) rarely tell the story. Also not to say Brady is so good he can't be compared to others.

The "don't dive at QB's knees" rule was also a "Brady Rule". But the NFL is making rules just for the Bills too so I can't say much.

Well, Brady doesn't have a Super Bowl performance like that (he does have some pretty mid or worse playoff games though) because they never got blown out to the point the backups were in. Brady's three Super Bowl losses were by a combined 15 points. The one time he was having a performance like this, well, it didn't end well for Atlanta. 

That said, he really didn't do a lot until the last drive against St. Louis, and he did if anything even less in the win over Los Angeles. He just didn't beat his team.

[BobbyWhioux]

On 2/12/2025 at 8:27 AM, Technico Support said:

That’s something that’s being avoided in this conversation and it’s probably because it’s harder to quantify or nobody wants to discuss it and be labeled a conspiracy theorist or whatever, but Mahomes gets a shitload of favorable calls.  Brady got calls, too, but the amount of protection and push Mahomes gets from the league is on another level.  You get Aikman in the booth complaining about it because dudes were trying to kill him back in the day with no flags, meanwhile Mahomes fakes a slide/slides very late, gets grazed, and it’s a sea of yellow.  It’s hard to make honest comparisons when it’s clear that protecting and boosting superstar QBs has become the league’s #1 priority.

don't mind me just contemplating Joe Montana Super Bowl Wins 5 thru 8 that would've existed if the modern rules had been around to castrate Dexter Manley, Leonard Marshall, and Richard Dent

[Dolfan in NYC]