MARCH 2021 Discussion of Wrestling.

[Wyld Samurai]

The best part of the Piper - Brown was the paint Piper used at Wrestlemania didn't come off for a few days.

[NikoBaltimore]

1 hour ago, twiztor said:

the irony of this is that, if you listen to him tell it, Piper doing that bullshit at WM6 was his way of showing solidarity.

we've come a long ways in 30 years but we're all still stupid and prejudiced.

Reading the book his kids put out about him they were very perplexed by that and his reasoning behind it.

11 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

The best part of the Piper - Brown was the paint Piper used at Wrestlemania didn't come off for a few days.

Karma's a wonderful thing, isn't it?  Apparently they ribbed Piper backstage by swapping out whatever removal liquid with I think water.  He had to go through the airport and everywhere with that on and I can only imagine the dirty looks he got.  Serves him right.

Edited March 26, 2021 by NikoBaltimore

[Technico Support]

13 hours ago, sabremike said:

I know, look how he was jobbed out by the noted shooter John Wilkes Booth.

 

[Technico Support]

10 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The fact it took another party to finally remove it doesn't give me great hope about WWE (hell, wrestling in general) surrounding issues of race. 

It's 2021 and they have a black man faking a Nigerian accent (I know he's of Nigerian descent but he does not have an accent) and walking around with a spear.  I asked about it here (because I don't watch WWE) and someone made a decent explanation/defense of it but still, come on.  Promoters of a certain age (*cough cough* Vince *cough cough*) will always approach characterization from a point of view that if you're non-white, then that's your gimmick. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Technico Support

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, Happ Hazzard said:

I don't agree with censorship after the fact. Put a disclaimer on it regarding historical context, put an age restriction on it, but put it on there as it is. Let people make up their own mind. If you start going through the entire WWE library and censoring everything that anyone could find offensive, you might as well not bother with it at all. Just declare year zero right now, this WrestleMania becomes the new WrestleMania 1 and nothing that happened before 2021 is acknowledged, pretty much like 1984 all over again.

That's exactly when you have to question why you're watching what you're watching. It's not an issue of censorship. It's an issue of when did the toxicity of not just WWE but wrestling in general overpower whatever good can come out of it. In this specific case, WWE has done an absolutely horrendous job explaining why instances like that (the blackface) are despicable. They had THIRTY years to call that out, give their fanbase an education on why those things are wrong, and make a decision to edit it or alter so it wasn't offensive. Once you fail to do that, you automatically waive the right to just put up an advisory warning. You've proved to be completely irresponsible in that department so you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt once another party acquires the rights to the content.

WWE got to be an outlaw for multiple decades and profit off of racism, transphobia, homophobia, etc. That time has come and gone. Once you enter the real business environment, the reality is you have to adhere to a set of rational standards everyone else has to adhere to. Call it PC or whatever you want. That's reality.

You can wear whatever bigoted stuff you want at your house. It's your domicile. Once you enter a public workspace with others, that no longer applies. Content is no different. That shit can stay in the vault all day and not be touched because it's sitting idle. Once it's made to be viewed by the public and for profit, it has to adhere to those standards. How hard is that to understand? Has no one ever held a job before?

I'm starting to see that it isn't just Vince that's behind the times, but his current and former fanbase is as well if not more than Vince.

[Craig H]

28 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

It's 2021 and they have a black man faking a Nigerian accent (I know he's of Nigerian descent but he does not have an accent) and walking around with a spear.  I asked about it here (because I don't watch WWE) and someone made a decent explanation/defense of it but still, come on.  Promoters of a certain age (*cough cough* Vince *cough cough*) will always approach characterization from a point of view that if you're non-white, then that's your gimmick. 

I think every week I have seen a clip of Crews doing this routine and it's seriously fucking weird. People who try to justify it mystify me even more. 

[NikoBaltimore]

I mean no disrespect to anybody else but I'm in agreement with @Elsalvajeloco I think we're at a point where if WWE isn't going to do something about offensive content then somebody has to.  Call it cancel culture, call it being too PG, but ultimately I think it's the right move especially as kids over time start checking out older stuff when they grow up.  And besides I did a check and those moments still exist on Youtube and elsewhere online so it's not like it's been wiped out completely (though it really should be IMO)

Edited March 26, 2021 by NikoBaltimore

[DEAN]

10 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I mean no disrespect to anybody else but I'm in agreement with @Elsalvajeloco I think we're at a point where if WWE isn't going to do something about offensive content then doing this somebody has to.  Call it cancel culture, call it being too PG, but ultimately I think it's the right move especially as kids over time start checking out older stuff when they grow up.  And besides I did a check and those moments still exist on Youtube and elsewhere online so it's not like it's been wiped out completely (though it really should be IMO)

But if you wipe out ever bra and panties match, you get this idea that the WWE wasn't this morally reprehensible entity that it was.

[NikoBaltimore]

Just now, DEAN said:

But if you wipe out ever bra and panties match, you get this idea that the WWE wasn't this morally reprehensible entity that it was.

Well it's a good thing then that they have many recent examples to show just how morally reprehensible they still are.

[Craig H]

4 minutes ago, DEAN said:

But if you wipe out ever bra and panties match, you get this idea that the WWE wasn't this morally reprehensible entity that it was.

No...no...I'm pretty sure people will always be aware that WWE and Vince are morally reprehensible. Besides, people that matter, the ones with money, are keenly aware that they're a morally reprehensible entity and they continue giving them billions of dollars.

[DEAN]

1 minute ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Well it's a good thing then that they have many recent examples to show just how morally reprehensible they still are.

I mean, moral reprehensibility should be the fault of the viewer.  I mean I wrote some morally reprehensible things about Mima Shimoda in a sweater, but that is my problem, not GAEA's.  They were presenting a wrestling match that I happened to inject my own pathetic observations.  WWE brought the moral reprehensibilty under the guise of a wrestling match.

[Technico Support]

31 minutes ago, Craig H said:

I think every week I have seen a clip of Crews doing this routine and it's seriously fucking weird. People who try to justify it mystify me even more. 

Holy fuck, I looked it up and this shit is fucking insane. 

[Craig H]

2 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Holy fuck, I looked it up and this shit is fucking insane. 

Yeah dude, see? It's really weird to attempt this now. I mean, the guy is carrying a fucking spear to the ring. What the fuck are we even doing?

When it started out and he cut his first heel promo, he spoke like his grandfather and people were like, "oh, he only spoke like that because that's how his grandfather sounded," but anyone who has watched WWE knew that Crews was going to sound like that all the time. 

I suppose we should be thankful that it was Black Panther that Vince watched and not, oh, I don't know, Chasing Amy.

[SirSmUgly]

47 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

 Call it cancel culture, call it being too PG

I just call it "having some goddam respect for people who are different from you," myself. Maybe that's too many words for a campaign slogan or angry hashtag, however. 

[NikoBaltimore]

5 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

I just call it "having some goddam respect for people who are different from you," myself. Maybe that's too many words for a campaign slogan or angry hashtag, however. 

Oh, for sure and that's how it should be.  But I blame Twitter for that along with the media itself that latches on to it.  There's been an increased need to hashtag everything even when it really doesn't need one at all.

[Elsalvajeloco]

20 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I mean no disrespect to anybody else but I'm in agreement with @Elsalvajeloco I think we're at a point where if WWE isn't going to do something about offensive content then doing this somebody has to.  Call it cancel culture, call it being too PG, but ultimately I think it's the right move especially as kids over time start checking out older stuff when they grow up.  And besides I did a check and those moments still exist on Youtube and elsewhere online so it's not like it's been wiped out completely (though it really should be IMO)

They've reach a point in growth where it's no longer feasible as a for profit company to continue to alienate people. And it's easy to say, "oh hey, people have the right to do XYZ." However, that's easy to say when you're not the affected party. It isn't a problem until it hits home for you.

And the blackface thing definitely hits home for me as a black man of my age. Do I believe there are black folks who would be fine with it? Sure, but that's not something that's up for discussion. This isn't a situation of a do something and then ask for permission later or ask who's cool with it after the fact. You know what's a bad thing for a company like WWE? Blatantly disrespecting people like me and those who come from the same background as me who have disposable income. If you want to just do whatever you want, don't enter the market space. It's that simple.

And if WWE can understand after so many years (I'm not sure if they FULLY understand, but hey some might say they do), why is it that hard for fans to understand? And it's not like they're forcing you to put your CC or debit card number in to subscribe. I think people are being irresponsible for lumping in the blackface in with blading or just general swearing or certain violent acts. I can buy examples in the latter where that can be an inconvenience to see it modified. However, if there are multiple instances of the former or things in the same vain as the former, then it's no longer an inconvenience. Cause you know what's more than an inconvenience? Racism. So I think the WWE right now at this point with all the money they're going to make in the future is fine with trading off those who are cool with it for those who aren't cool with it. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

42 minutes ago, Craig H said:

No...no...I'm pretty sure people will always be aware that WWE and Vince are morally reprehensible.

Most people probably don't think about that when they slap down the $9.99 because they want to see an old WCW Saturday Night but we've discussed it on here many times..    just as recently as Saudi Arabia..   The ten dollars goes directly into the hands of a company that turns around and funds government campaigns that seek to keep status quo or worse.  People aren't watching the shows and Network and arriving at that conclusion or maybe we don't want to think about it that way but when fans  give these people money that's what they are doing with it. 

[DEAN]

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Most people probably don't think about that when they slap down the $9.99 because they want to see an old WCW Saturday Night but we've discussed it on here many times..    just as recently as Saudi Arabia..   The ten dollars goes directly into the hands of a company that turns around and funds government campaigns that seek to keep status quo or worse.  People aren't watching the shows and Network and arriving at that conclusion or maybe we don't want to think about it that way but when fans  give these people money that's what they are doing with it. 

I'm amazed Vince hasn't started a wrestling porn site if he could make money off of it.

[Go2Sleep]

Have they also scrubbed the DX/Nation parody blackface segment? Always seemed weird to me that it not only got a pass, but was actively promoted as a major moment in the attitude era and a top example of "comedy" from that time.

It'll be interesting to see where they draw the line. Jarrett's woman-beater gimmick? HLA? Steph getting married while drugged (can't remember if there was some type of consummation "joke" there as well)? Goldust's early stuff? JR's constant homophobic comments every time Pat Patterson was on screen? Kai En Tai dub segments? HHH's "people like you" promo aimed at Booker T? That's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

Also, if NBC really cares about representation, actions in the present speak louder than actions in the past. Get Hogan off tv and boot Trump from the HOF please.

[Hagan]

Peacock can do whatever it wants with its content but now that the editing has started it's far more likely that the majority of it ends up getting memory-holed. It's great that people want wrestling to be better than it is morally but 1) it never will be fundamentally because being low-brow is a feature and not a bug 2) the movement to atone for its past really just means that a lot of the history has to be erased. 

I dunno - sometimes when I hear people be so offended about what they see in wrestling I just wonder "why did you start watching? What did you expect?" 

I was going back and watching a lot of late '86 WWE and the build to Wrestlemania a few weeks back. The Piper face turn and feud with Adonis and Muraco is so awesome but should also NEVER BE SEEN BY ANYONE because it is blatantly, horrifically homophobic. I'm cool if it gets relegated to the dustbin of history but just realize that once this movement starts it doesn't stop and things you liked, or thought fondly or are not personally offensive to yourself are going to go be erased forever. 

Anyway - whatever - there's plenty of wrestling to watch in the world. 

 

[Craig H]

2 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said:

Also, if NBC really cares about representation, actions in the present speak louder than actions in the past. Get Hogan off tv and boot Trump from the HOF please.

No shit. If you want any evidence for how tone deaf WWE still is and forever will be, then it's shit like Crews and shit like Hogan hosting WM.

BTW, in the most recent New Day podcast, Big E still refuses to even say Hogan's name so it's not like Hogan's racist bullshit is water under the bridge.

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 hour ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I think we're at a point where if WWE isn't going to do something about offensive content then somebody has to.  Call it cancel culture, call it being too PG, but ultimately I think it's the right move especially as kids over time start checking out older stuff when they grow up. 

i agree with you..   From the reaction of others on the board i realized that my comment about wanting them to not edit out content was offensive.  My belief or 'fear' was that NBC would go the WWE 2009 TV-PG route and start editing out bloody brawls etc..   

But that was a shortsighted take on the matter.  Had nothing to do with 'cancel culture' as @Casey brought up..   Many things and people deserved to be cancelled. 

[Coletti]

I've got no problem with them deleting half of their fucking library. Maybe people decades and decades from now, having not seen the offensive stuff, might think about the company in a better light than we do, but at the same time Disney has buried Song Of The South deeper than Jimmy Hoffa and yet it is still talked about to this day. Some things permanently stain a company, and I'm pretty sure WWE's legacy of racism, sexism, and homophobia won't be forgotten no matter what they do to scrub history.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Listen I think there's a rational middle ground between the two sides represented here.

Black face is highly offensive and I agree with Piper vs Brown & the DX / Nation segment being scrubbed. Vince dropping the N word as well.

But Niners is going further down the path of what if and I don't think that makes him a bad person wondering out loud. We all agree black face has no place being celebrated. But then all the Goldust segments were mentioned. Nicole Bass. Bra & Panties matches. Overly bloody matches. Steph drugged and married. I don't find Eugene and George Steel stuff very tasteful at all in hindsight. If we start taking entire chunks of things off the network based on the past offending people in the present it starts getting pretty incomplete. If we scrub Goldust and Eugene and George Steel & attitude era women & massive blade job matches from history... well there goes WM3 Savage v Steamboat classic, almost all of Flair's amazing catalog, the majority of Trish Stratus' career among a bunchhhhhh of others.

At a certain point it gets to be the more level headed sophisticated answer is do what Disney & Warner Brothers do. Put content warnings on there. Say hey this was different era and there's some unsavory things but we're keeping it in here and letting you decide what stuff you want to watch with the proper historical context. Changing and erasing the past doesn't fix our mistakes in the present.

(And just for the record I fucking hate the term cancel culture. There's no such thing as cancel culture. It's literally just society weeding out the shit bags. If you don't want to get "canceled" don't do vile disgusting shit. Pretty simple way to live life.)

[Hagan]

It's not just WWE though. Mid-South has language and representation that is offensive by today's standards. Most of ECW has language and misogyny that is reprehensible. WCW has problematic issues . 

The issue is that it's not one company. The entire industry (then, now, forever) is filled with stuff that is going to offend people now and in the future. You may as well just say wrestling history begins the day Peacock bought the Network (though even then you have the Apollo Crews stuff). 

And I mean, getting rid of this stuff is fine because if it offends people, it offends people. No one has the right to tell people what they should or shouldn't approve but none of this affects Vince McMahon AT ALL. Dude got his money. Dude will continue to get his money. Nor will it improve the reputation of wrestling because it by nature will always be what it is. 

The real loser is all of us because when you throw the baby out with the bathwater a lot of wrestling history we grew up on it is going to only be found on sketchy torrent sites and like Billi Billi. 

And that is fine but until this week when the last time anyone thought about Piper's bullshit. He's dead. Wrestlemania 6 gets watched by like 15 people every year. If life has become better for that show being edited, I think that's wonderful but, historically, once you go down the path of editing off content that could upset people you end up encountering unintended consequences that don't make anyone happy.