WWE Network Conversation

[matt925]

As an xfinity subscriber I’ve been enjoying peacock for free but that’s about to end. Comcast sent an email with a promo to get 12 months for $36, but just today I used fandango (elemental is such a great movie) and they sent me a promo for 6 months for $12. I think I’ll go with that. 

[Gorman]

Thoughts on The Doctor Is In

Damien Kane didn't win any Manager of the Year votes. He kept telling Devon Storm not to pin Mikey Whipwreck to do more damage instead. Later, Kane dropped an elbow on his own man, and Mikey rallied to win.

Johnny Smith made a successful debut over Louie Spiccoli, and the fans chanted for both men after the match.

Stevie Richards defended Raven's ECW title again, but after Stevie blasted Sandman with Raven's loaded boot, Raven stole the pin for himself.

2 Cold Scorpio busted out the Shooting Star Press to beat Chris Jericho, earning a "Whoomp - there it is!" chant from the ECW fans.

Pitbull 1 showed up with a giant halo neckbrace, and he vowed that he would return to action one day. Pitbull 2 was unable to gain revenge against Shane Douglas and Francine, but he did get some satisfaction from superbombing referee Pee Wee Moore and heel ring announcer Joel Gertner.

The Samoan Gangsta Party got arrested earlier in the night but came back in handcuffs for the four-way tag match. Didn't the Gangstas just do that? Speaking of New Jack and Mustafa, they pinned the Samoans and Eliminators to win the tag team title and the MVP award.

What move would be extreme enough to win the stretcher match between RVD and Sabu? The answer: RVD diving off the top to the floor and splattering himself on the stretcher, giving the win to Sabu.

Steve "Dr. Death" Williams was Tommy Dreamer's mystery partner against Brian Lee & his pick, Taz - but Doc didn't factor in the finish as Lee chokeslammed Dreamer onto a trash can. At least Doc got the show named after him.

 

[Gorman]

Thoughts on Natural Born Killaz

Louie Spicolli continued his face turn by refusing to join Damian Kane's stable and giving him a Death Valley Driver - earning a huge pop from the crowd and this board.

Did any successful team beat each other up more than Buh-Buh Ray and D-Von Dudley before they got together? Here, Buh-Buh and Big Dick beat Axl Rotten and D-Von, with no end to the family feud in sight.

Cat Fight 96 between Peaches and Missy Hyatt didn't happen due to Missy's arm injury. Stevie Richards said he would drop his sexual harassment lawsuit if she would denounce The Sandman ... and she did it!

Doug Furnas's power attack seemed more effective against RVD than Sabu's similar offense. However, RVD won when he discovered the Van Daminator chair kick. RVD said he did respect Furnas, who responded by suplexing him onto his head, resulting in another stretcher ride for Van Dam.

Before facing Raven & Douglas, Sandman said he had no wife, no son, no Missy, and no partner, because Pitbull 2 had been injured the night before. All he had left was being the King of Extreme (well, we'll see at the end of the book). But Pitbull 2 not only returned, but he pinned Raven after hitting him with his own loaded boot. This earned Pitbull 2 the MVP award.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Gorman

[Gorman]

Thoughts on November to Remember 96

The Blue World Order was an instant hit and immediately cast Big Stevie Cool in the role of a leader, even though he was still a follower of Raven. 

Sabu & RVD battled the Eliminators for a title shot against the Gangstas. The time limit expired. "Three Way Dance!" the fans shouted. Tod Gordon came out and said "Five more minutes." Then it happened again. Finally, Tod gave the fans what they wanted. The exhausted challengers came back after the next match, and the Gangstas ended up winning.

2 Cold Scorpio turned the "loser leaves town" foregone conclusion on its head by winning three loser-leaves-town matches before finally losing one to Louie Spicolli. Scorpio was already in the WWF and teased Louie as his mystery partner at Survivor Series one night later.

Tommy Dreamer and Terry Funk both got put through tables, but they fought back to beat Shane Dougas and Brian Lee in the main event. Funk delivered a "53-year-old man moonsault" from the top rope to the floor.

Taz is the MVP, even though he didn't have a match. He spilled the beans about ECW's pay-per-view debut, cost RVD & Sabu the tag team titles, and finally goaded Sabu into the ring for a confrontation before the lights went out.  

[Gorman]

Thoughts on Crossing the Line Again

Lance Storm looked strange with a blond ponytail, as he defeated Balls Mahoney. It was hard to tell who was supposed to be the face and the heel.

Dr. Death hadn't been defeated in the USA for a decade, according to Joey Styles. Raven scored this historic pin after three Stevie Kicks and a DDT. Stevie wasn't trying to help Raven; he was annoyed that Doc had declined his invitation to join the bWo.

The Eliminators won the MVP award, retaining the belts over RVD & Sabu with Total Elimination. It's surprising that they didn't go together to WCW or the WWF like The Public Enemy.

Terry Funk marched toward another World title by beating a fellow aging ex-champion in Tommy Rich.

Pitbull 1 was already back in action, and he allowed himself to get superbombed onto Shane Douglas through a table as the Pitbulls and Tommy Dreamer won the main event over the Triple Threat. This match featured a masked guy on the microphone who was obviously Rick Rude. I also didn't remember Brian Lee being part of the Triple Threat (or being called "The Bulldozer" - I mean, "Prime Time" is a perfectly good nickname).

[Greggulator]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:27 AM, Gorman said:

Thoughts on November to Remember 96

The Blue World Order was an instant hit and immediately cast Big Stevie Cool in the role of a leader, even though he was still a follower of Raven. 

Sabu & RVD battled the Eliminators for a title shot against the Gangstas. The time limit expired. "Three Way Dance!" the fans shouted. Tod Gordon came out and said "Five more minutes." Then it happened again. Finally, Tod gave the fans what they wanted. The exhausted challengers came back after the next match, and the Gangstas ended up winning.

2 Cold Scorpio turned the "loser leaves town" foregone conclusion on its head by winning three loser-leaves-town matches before finally losing one to Louie Spicolli. Scorpio was already in the WWF and teased Louie as his mystery partner at Survivor Series one night later.

Tommy Dreamer and Terry Funk both got put through tables, but they fought back to beat Shane Dougas and Brian Lee in the main event. Funk delivered a "53-year-old man moonsault" from the top rope to the floor.

Taz is the MVP, even though he didn't have a match. He spilled the beans about ECW's pay-per-view debut, cost RVD & Sabu the tag team titles, and finally goaded Sabu into the ring for a confrontation before the lights went out.  

I was at this one live. Super fun when the bWo debuted — one of the best live ECW moments. The other thing I remember (that I guess did not make the show but I could be misremembering), Raven had a match against someone later that night and Stevie did live commentary and stole the show when he said something like “Of course, as you know, Raven is left-handed!”

Stevie was for a while the hottest act in ECW. He was legitimately one of the best workers in the country at the time, too, without having the flashiness usually associated with “the best worker in the country.” Stevie had one of the best Sabu matches a little earlier than that, too.

[Gorman]

37 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

Raven had a match against someone later that night and Stevie did live commentary and stole the show

I didn't mention this in my notes, but Stevie did commentary on Raven unsuccessfully challenging Sandman for the title.

[SirSmUgly]

Royal Rumble '98 notes:

• I've been ill this weekend, so I'm going to write about some comfort food viewing. I have the WWF Big Five PPV series for 1998 (on VHS, no less!), so I've seen this show many times before, but I haven't seen it in quite awhile now, maybe a decade or so. 

 

• It'll also be a nice counter-point to WCW; I've just seen Souled Out '98, which was a very good show! I'm looking forward to seeing the show that WCW commentary trashed as a bore in comparison. 

 

• Man, they killed it with this hype video for the Rumble that opens the show. They always kill it with these hype videos. 

 

• The VINCE, YOUR TAG TEAMS SUCK sign someone's waving around behind the English commentary desk is, um, not incorrect at this point in time!

 

• Goldust/Vader has long been one of my favorite openers on a PPV. I forgot that the former was at this point announced as The Artist Formerly Known as Goldust and that both major wrestling companies (WCW via Prince Iaukea/TAFKAPI) riffed on Prince Rogers's naming convention that he'd taken up as part of his feud with Warner Bros. Everyone feuds with Warner Bros. at some point. Hell, I'm feuding with them right now. Fucking David Zaslav. Anyway, I'm surprised they didn't give TAFKAG a symbol to replace his name, with the symbol being a crudely drawn penis. Or maybe they did and I forgot about it!

 

• This match is fun as hell, in fact. Luna Vachon is excellent running distractions and cheating on the outside for Dust and is an important part of the finish, in which she tries to stop a Vader Bomb by leaping onto Vader's back, but merely adds to the weight that comes crashing down onto Dustin. One might say, hey, this match is a lot of punching, ball shots, and tossing people around at ringside, but Vader throwing lariats + Goldust throwing punches = a good time! It also feels like a solid opening statement to the night's events, which will include lots of fuckery, lots of punching, and lots of outside interference. Also, Jim Ross randomly calls Vader THICC, which cracked me up. Five stars. 

 

• I guess Steve Austin fucked up like everyone's worlds on the RAW before this show because he shows up at the arena, threatens to beat Michael Cole's ass, and storms into the building. Shortly after, the Godwinns show up looking for Austin. Cole is like I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE WENT even though he went through literally the only door in the camera shot thirty seconds ago. 

 

• It's a minis trios match! So, Sunny's the special ref for this thing. It's Battallion, Tarantula, and El Torito against Max Mini, Mosaic, and Nova. Tarantula does that Psicosis bump where he misses a splash and lands on his head. Gnarly. Max Mini's a hell of an athlete. Jim Ross hits a kinda funny callback to Jerry Lawler's minis Survivor Series partners in that one match/feud he had against Doink and Dink, holy shit, I totally forgot about that until Ross mentioned it. Lawler, on the other hand, is fucking dreadful on color, and his endless run of stupid short jokes make me want to powerbomb my monitor. This is quite the crisp moves exhibition. At one point, Mike Tyson realizes that the camera is on him, so he should react to the ring action, which he does in a completely unbelievable way. Sunny helps Max Moon get the leverage to put boots to the heels before everyone does their dives and Max Mini gets the pinfall on El Torito in the ring. They actually got the crowd into this thing by escalating their spots, which was pretty impressive!

 

• The Nation of Domination bust in on Austin's locker room to beat his ass, but only find an Austin-brand foam middle finger waiting for them. Rude!

 

• The Rock stuffing Ken Shamrock's attempts to win the Intercontinental Championship in the dumbest and shittiest of ways for months before finally losing the King of the Ring final to Shamrock was one of my favorite storylines. Mark Henry turning heel on Shamrock while wearing a red ROCKY SUCKS shirt isn't as good as Mark Henry jumping John Cena while wearing the salmon suit and having A LOT LEFT IN THE TANK (or anywhere near it), but it's pretty good! 

 

• The production of Black Adam The Nation is a mess because of The Rock's ego. The Rock cuts a very nineties promo in which he talks about Bill Clinton not holding to his marital vows before remembering to crap on Shamrock for like twenty seconds at the very end.

 

• We get shots of like eighty inappropriate crowd signs as Rock makes his way to the ring, where he grabs a mic to rebut the crowd's claim that he sucks. Rock's such a good cowardly heel. Any time that he can avoid direct physical confrontation with Shamrock, he does so. That's a good choice on his part as every time he gets into direct confrontation, he struggles. He's got to misdirect, cheat, and bail out to keep Shamrock from gaining momentum. The Rock's able to drop Shamrock across the ropes on a Frankensteiner attempt to get some control, though to keep it, he's got to toss in a liberal amount of eye rakes and chokes. Even then, he just can't keep it for very long. Shamrock gets two on a Fisherman's Suplex, so the Rock takes the match to the floor in response.

 

• Shamrock fights back and shoots the Rock into the ropes, but the Rock snaps off a floatover DDT (which I think was briefly called the Layeth the Smacketh Down) for two. The Rock can't keep control on a chinlock and gets reversed out of another floatover DDT attempt by a Shamrock Northern Lights suplex. Shamrock makes his comeback, hits the Frankensteiner, and is distracted by an onrushing Kama Mustafa and D'Lo Brown. While the ref's dealing with that (and with D'Lo getting his foot caught in the ropes) The Rock grabs some knucks and waffles Shamrock, but then takes them off and slides them into Shamrock's tights. Keep this in mind because when Shamrock comes back and hits a belly-to-belly for the three count, the Rock points out that Shamrock has knucks in his tights. Mike Chioda checks, Shamrock gets DQ'd, and the Rock gets the IC title back. Now that is some scumbag shit. Shamrock yells FUCK YOU and ankle locks Chioda for that reversed decision. Man, it's a shame we never got a Ken Shamrock/Scott Steiner tag team. Dudes yelling FUCK a lot and doing a billion suplexes. That's money. 

 

• Los Boricuas have an instance of racial blindness and get their bald white guys mixed up. They jump one of the Harris Twins instead of Steve Austin. Oops! 

 

• We get a video package that recaps the Legion of Doom's successes and struggles; for the struggles part, we specifically look at the New Age Outlaws staying two steps ahead of them lately. Are the Road Warriors too old to beat these brash young hooligans? That's the question that will be answered TONIGHT in this very ring!

 

• Road Dogg's chant-along hasn't caught on with the crowd yet. The Outlaws come out wearing Packers jerseys and insulting the 49ers/Steve Young's wife for cheap heat. Backstage before the match, Animal yells a lot and asserts that doctors aren't good at the craft of assessing human injuries. Hawk cuts a promo and wow, these guys are so corny. Oh man, they simply do not work doing this schtick in 1998. But they are over as faces because they've hit that "legacy act" level. I genuinely can't think of one great New Age Outlaws tag match. Did the Dumpster Match against Funk and Foley get closest? This match is okay. Its best quality is that it's worked with some surprising pace, especially for these teams. Jimmy Korderas somehow misses Road Dogg handcuffing Hawk to the post, and I mean, he doesn't see it happen even though it take quite a bit of time. Then, he only notices it after 45 seconds of Hawk yelling HEY HEY I'M HANDCUFFED, HE HANDCUFFED ME. Animal actually holds on for awhile and almost gets three when he catches Gunn in mid-air and powerslams him, but Road Dogg hammers Animal with a chair to draw the DQ and keep the gold. The Outlaws target Animal's back  until Hawk rips the cuffs away from the post and makes the save. 

 

• I've said this in the other thread that I review shows in, but WWE and Vince McMahon Jr. understood that contemporary white working class coolness w/r/t vehicles in 1998 (and today in 2023, for that matter) was about huge trucks with big-ass tires, not Harleys. Bischoff and Hogan were so hopelessly uncool. Mildred Bowers from Nashville has apparently won a sweepstakes for Steve Austin's Austin 3:16-themed huge truck with big-ass tires. Man, if it were me, just give me the cash value of that sucker instead.

 

• The Royal Rumble is the semi-main. I'll just hit my points here as I watch this sucker.

 

• • Mick Foley gets three entries (Cactus, Dude, Mankind) and takes three L's. Rough night for him.

 

• • Happy birthday to Terry Funk, and also why the fuck did this man wear pantyhose to the ring and call himself Chainsaw Charlie? I mean, Terry Funk rules, but this is baffling.

 

• • (I know he's talked about this, but it's still baffling.) 

 

• • Foley knocking the chainsaw out of Funk's hands with a chair was pretty awesome! Funk and Foley taking unprotected chair shots as an act of friendship, um, not so much, but at the time (pre-knowledge of CTE), I thought it was a weirdly touching show of friendship. A nutty, oddball friendship, to be sure, but still. 

 

• • I love that they dumped Tom Brandi immediately so they could go back to punching each other. In general, I love this opening to the Rumble a whole lot. So, Funk takes a vertical suplex across two folding chairs, this man is INSANE, and I need to take a breath here. 

 

• • The Rock is our long-runner for the night, coming out at four and lasting all the way into the final two. He almost immediately wears a trash can so that Funk and Foley can punch him while he dances around in it before Foley chair-shots the can and sends Rock tumbling through the middle ropes. I'm impressed that he found the middle ropes so smoothly while blind. 

 

• • Owen Hart comes out at nine, but never makes it to the ring because Jeff Jarrett jumps him. Man, Owen stayed getting jumped while coming down the ramp for Rumbles. Hart got a big pop. I don't remember Hart and Jarrett/Cornette beefing. I guess Jarrett's the NWA North American champ. Anyway, Jarrett left WCW to re-do his whole TRADITION gimmick he came into WCW with, except with Cornette and an NWA title added to it? That's all they had for him?

 

• • Ross says that Marc Mero needs a "charisma bypass," which is slander of the highest order. 

 

• • Ken Shamrock's out at fourteen and knocks down Kurrgan, who's in the "big man who eliminates a handful of midcarders" role, with a series of strikes. Everyone takes that chance to flip Kurrgan over the top rope in a team effort. 

 

• • The Nation - well, just D'Lo and the Rock at this point - is barely even trying to work as a team in this thing. They really should watch some tape of the nWo. 

 

• • Goldust has multiple outfits with thong panties illustrated on them, and he's picked two separate ones to wear in the opener and then in the Rumble. Now, that's dedication to an aesthetic theme!

 

• • Jarrett comes out, and Owen runs in to get his spot in the Rumble back and to beat up Jarrett. Mero is all trying to get in on the brawl, but it's like, man, you gotta move, Owen's getting his shine. Owen eliminates Jarrett to a mega-pop, and what a waste of Owen being way over, huh?

 

• • Owen's overness is only going to end up being a vehicle with which to elevate Triple H, in fact, and that feud gets some fuel added to it when Trips and Chyna come out and help eliminate Owen with the help of a couple of crutch shots. Owen chases them to the back and falls as he makes it into gorilla, which Lawler helpfully points out on commentary. 

 

• • Ahmed Johnson stole the wearing of Breathe Right strips in the ring from Booker T., so I think it's pretty ridiculous that in a couple of years, he's going to be making spurious claims about Booker's ownership of the letter "T." 

 

• • The Rock tosses Shamrock, but no one caught it live because of all the hullabaloo with Owen and Jarrett and HHH and Chyna, which seems like poor timing for that elimination! The Rock bashed Shamrock in the nuts and flung him. 

 

• • At twenty-two, the buzzer sounds, but there's no entrant. Was it supposed to be Steve Austin; has Austin been jumped in the back before the match? Lawler claims so. 

 

• • Lawler's claims are, of course, incorrect. Austin's out at twenty-four, but instead of coming down the ramp, he comes through the crowd. Everyone's looking toward the ramp, though. Austin eliminates Mero and 8-Ball before settling in and throwing a whole lotta strikes. 

 

• • All of Los Boricuas have obviously double-checked beforehand and can properly identify their target, so they all run out at Savio's spot in the Rumble and try to attack Austin. It goes poorly for them. 

 

• • The Nation has all five members in the ring when Faarooq enters at twenty-seven, so of course Faarooq goes at Rock immediately. I'm sure the Fruit of Islam is disappointed in this lack of outward unity, fellas. 

 

• • The Rock hits D-Lo with a People's Elbow. No one cares. 

 

• • Vader draws the thirtieth entry. Great draw and has had over an hour to rest, to boot!

 

• • Austin tosses Thrasher, Kama, and Savio. Goldust gets a measure of revenge for earlier tonight by eliminating Vader. Dude Love ducks a lariat and H.O.G. eliminates himself. Chainz (?!) eliminates Goldust. Austin dumps Chainz; Faarooq knocks Mark Henry out of the ring.

 

• • The final four: The Rock, Steve Austin, Faarooq, and Dude Love. One past and three future World Champs in the ring. That's not bad!

 

• • Faarooq eliminates Dude after an Austin low-blow.

 

• • The Rock sneaks up behind Faarooq and dumps him.

 

• • We got Rock/Austin up in this ring, baybee! 

 

• • The Rock eats a Stunner with what can only be described as an utterly absurd sell so that he can be in position to get tossed afterward. He rolls halfway down the aisle. Magnificent. 

 

• • Tyson is genuinely hyped about Austin's win. He even transposes his consonant clusters, he's so hyped: MY MAN CONE STOLD

 

• • That was a pretty good Rumble for one with about five stars and a shitload of meh midcarders. 

 

• Shawn Michaels defends the WWF World Championship against the Undertaker in what is my favorite Casket Match by a long ways and, on some days, might be my favorite Undertaker/Michaels match straight up. It's probably the Bad Blood HIAC for me, but some days, I don't feel that way. 

 

• The video package to hype the match is so good, especially the supercut of HIAC spots. Kane also shows up at the end of that supercut, which is important for later.

 

• So I guess in the run-up to this match, Kane showed up to save the Undertaker from a DX attack? I refuse to once again watch through what was one of the dumber long-term feuds in pro wrestling at the time or ever, for that matter, but I have a knowledge gap about why Kane came out and helped Michaels win this match, then set the coffin on fire with the Undertaker in it. 

 

• I really love how they'd intercut Michaels's entrances with the DX Titantron around this time. That's a unique visual entrance. 

 

• Ross puts over Michaels for being a Grand Slam winner, specifically in comparison to Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage. Well, the latter two weren't exactly around when the European Championship was a thing, but okay. 

 

• Michaels goes with the stick-and-move offensive approach, which would work better if he also weren't trying to crotch chop everyone all the time. If he'd cut the crotch-chopping taunts out, he'd have a better record than he already does, probably. The match is very much centered around Michaels trying not to get caught by the Undertaker and the whole crowd waiting expectantly for the Undertaker to get this dude and fuck his world up. Michaels takes a wild, wicked bump across the casket that was a point-of-no-return for his back about two minutes in, to give you an idea of how much stuff is happening in this match. That's what I sort of forgot about - the pace of this thing is really fast. It gets a bit slower after the opening when everyone's selling injuries and they have to work casket spots, but it's still a wholly impressive match in terms of pacing and just the number of creative and interesting spots they pack into this sucker. 

 

• Speaking of wicked spots, we get that piledriver on the steps spot that rules. Michaels uses this and a bit of follow-up offense to get Undertaker into the casket while Ross puts over the Undertaker as a higher caliber of big-man opponent than Sid or Kevin Nash. Michaels has a pretty fun control segment, hits a Savage Elbow that Ross swears is better than Randy Savage's, then pops 'Taker with the SCM. But again, his desire to crotch chop gets him into trouble as, when he's got Taker in the coffin, he stands over him and crotch chops. 'Taker sits up and takes a big ol' handful of HBSack, which is one way to start a comeback. 

 

• After said comeback, Michaels gets some room and does a shitty elbow on 'Taker into the casket, then tries to escape before getting pulled back in in what is a pretty good visual! I mean, Michaels overdoes it a bit with the facial expressions, but he's playing to the crowd. It's all 'Taker from there, as he hits a chokeslam and then a jumping Tombstone from the apron to the casket (!!!). Unfortunately for him, Chyna murks the ref and then the New Age Outlaws and Los Boricuas run out and beat down the Undertaker. Kane comes out for the save, but not really, and 'Taker gets dumped into the casket by his erstwhile bro, then set on fire. 

 

• You can say that the ending knocks this one down a notch, but hey, Kane showed up at the end of HIAC and that match still rules. I have this as the second-best Michaels/Taker match after watching it again, below Badd Blood HIAC, but well above either of the WrestleMania wankfests. 

 

• This show was so much fun. Ross made fun of WCW for being the senior circuit, but Souled Out was loaded with good young talent as well as older talent that could still go. Schiavone or whomever, I can't remember, called this Rumble a bore, but it was peak Attitude-era entertainment, and there were still, you know, full wrestling matches with complete narratives up and down the card instead of only in the main event (like in 1999 WWF). Wrestling was very good in January of 1998. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by SirSmUgly

[zendragon]

Bringing in the minis was really throwing shit at the wall from Vince, along with the half assed LHW tournament, bringing in luchadores a bunch is WHO? Entrants in the 95 & 96 rumble’s 

[JLowe]

Wasn't one of the minis (possibly Max Mini) Mascarita Sagrada, who at that time was not only a top mini but possibly one of the top luchadors in Mexico?

[odessasteps]

Yes

[SirSmUgly]

WWFE was going to do a whole minis show in conjunction with AAA at one point in '97/'98, if I recall correctly.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

Doing a rewatch of 92 Superstars and there's just so much shit thrown at the wall that just goes away and never really resolved. Some because it flat out sucks, others because shuffling chairs to accommodate guys leaving.

In no real order:

Kerry Von Erich reappears after Mania. The promos are weirdly religious for the WWF. You're kinda wondering where it goes. But he's gone soon after..(and then you see Bret's promo after beating Flair being very uncharacteristically God based and nope, it's just 1992).

And replaced by poor KVE clone Lance Cassidy who just gets the deadest response ever. Not sure if the shitty 50s rock and roll music is overdubbed, but it doesn't seem to be and it's awful. He has a squash match with Tom Stone and nearly kills the dude with a slam off the top rope. 

They spend a lot of time building up to Sgt Slaughter vs The Mountie after the Mountie uses the shock stick on him. There's a few eight man tags here and there but Slaughter retires and becomes an on screen authority figure (again a weird one - this starts like after SummerSlam 92, he's on screen till about...late 93 maybe? Then never resumes the role on screen till like 97? Is it considered a continued role? He never went away for four years?

Sid vs Warrior is built up for about a fortnight. Which then becomes Warrior vs Shango, which then gets dropped for Warrior vs Savage, Warrior/Savage vs Flair/Razor gets dropped with Warrior leaving, Flair leaves and at least does business with Perfect before leaving, which becomes Perfect/Luger which gets paid off a year later.

Papa Shango vs Bret goes nowhere as they hot shot the title onto Bret. And I'm disappointed we didn't get refined character actor Bret Hart playing a zombie as promised.

Shawn vs Bret gets sidelined after months of build up due to the last minute decision to move SummerSlam to Wembley. There's the weird little blow off ladder match on the Coliseum Video release, then Shawn beats Bulldog and we restart.

There's a lot of time building up the Beverleys for the LOD feud which then becomes largely focused on Rocco instead, and then LOD leave the Beverleys high and dry. I don't recall the Beverleys being this featured as such big deals. I remember them looking like shit against the Bushwhackers at the Rumble and then just being job guys.

The Jimmy Hart/Money Inc/Nasties/Disasters story is fun and a nice use of TV time. I see there's a Headshrinkers vs Nasty Boys brawl from Raw in 93 that I can't wait to watch.

Crush is all over these shows and it's jarring. They initially debut him with these awful black and white vignettes of Baby Crush crushing things. His promos by today's standards feel like insincere heel but they're just inauthentic. Out of nowhere they start playing up "OH BY THE WAY DID YOU KNOW HES FROM HAWAII?" stuff. He's terrible in ring as a face. Using the head vice and keeping it on after the bell. He wrestles like a heel but does a heap of really cool athletic things like springboarding out the ring to the floor that pop the crowd along with his sweet entrance music. Why do they give this guy extended promo time when he is so awful at it?

I wish we'd got more Savage/Razor in ring beyond the tag at Survivor Series.

[Gorman]

Thoughts on CyberSlam 97

Sabu opened and closed the show, teaming with RVD to lose to the Eliminators before beating Chris Candido in the main event. For a guy who barely talked, Sabu always seemed to be involved in "respect" conversations, including twice on this show. He showed respect to the Eliminators and encouraged RVD to do the same (nope), and Candido showed respect to Sabu at the end of the show.

Tommy Rich revealed his ancient Mafia ties and joined the Full-Blooded Italians. Rich gave Little Guido bad advice, and "The Rookie" Chris Chetti upset him. Now there's a nickname with a limited shelf life.

Axl Rotten vs. Spike Dudley started innocently enough, but then three ECW classics took place:

1. Buh-Buh Ray and D-Von nailed their little brother with the 3D (Dudley Death Drop)
2. New Jack did a crazy dive out of the balcony
3. The Axl-Spike match led right into the Dudleys-Gangstas match

The Dudleys won, establishing themselves as a top-level team.

Tommy Dreamer turned in an all-time great babyface performance. First, he said no when Raven offered to lay down and let Dreamer finally pin him, because it would have cost Terry Funk a title shot at the first ECW pay-per-view. Later, he tried to save Funk from further damage after a devastating garbage-can attack by Brian Lee. Finally, he cemented Stevie Richards' babyface turn by shaking hands with him. For all these reasons, Dreamer is the MVP.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Watching the 5/11/1998 Monday Night Raw, which I didn’t see at the time because I was attending Nitro that night.

Ahh, this Russovision era of trying to give everybody something to do is fun. Even if dudes like Vader and Barry Windham were clearly dead in the water around the WWF by early 98. When the LOD 2000 wasn’t the coldest act on the card.

Also Marc Mero taking the Sablebomb and early Al Snow and Mick Foley wearing false teeth. The DX CNN Center stuff is clearly much less remembered than the DX stuff when the WWF and WCW ran the same market in the same night. But this thing did inspire the bad idea of Bischoff challenging Vince McMahon to face him at Slamboree.

Tony Siragusa has a gigantic head and he’s sitting directly behind JR.

IIRC, there’s a Dustin Rhodes repackage coming up during the second hour that I haven’t seen yet (EDIT: upon seeing it... we have at least 3 babyfaces doing some form of "raging against the WWF Machine" in the same show between Austin, Al Snow, and this shortlived Dustin Rhodes stint and I gotta imagine that Austin just sucked up all the energy for that sort of gimmick compared to Snow and Dustin)

Edited July 11, 2023 by Cobra Commander

[SirSmUgly]

On 7/9/2023 at 6:54 PM, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Doing a rewatch of 92 Superstars and there's just so much shit thrown at the wall that just goes away and never really resolved. Some because it flat out sucks, others because shuffling chairs to accommodate guys leaving.

In no real order:

Kerry Von Erich reappears after Mania. The promos are weirdly religious for the WWF. You're kinda wondering where it goes. But he's gone soon after..(and then you see Bret's promo after beating Flair being very uncharacteristically God based and nope, it's just 1992).

And replaced by poor KVE clone Lance Cassidy who just gets the deadest response ever. Not sure if the shitty 50s rock and roll music is overdubbed, but it doesn't seem to be and it's awful. He has a squash match with Tom Stone and nearly kills the dude with a slam off the top rope. 

They spend a lot of time building up to Sgt Slaughter vs The Mountie after the Mountie uses the shock stick on him. There's a few eight man tags here and there but Slaughter retires and becomes an on screen authority figure (again a weird one - this starts like after SummerSlam 92, he's on screen till about...late 93 maybe? Then never resumes the role on screen till like 97? Is it considered a continued role? He never went away for four years?

Sid vs Warrior is built up for about a fortnight. Which then becomes Warrior vs Shango, which then gets dropped for Warrior vs Savage, Warrior/Savage vs Flair/Razor gets dropped with Warrior leaving, Flair leaves and at least does business with Perfect before leaving, which becomes Perfect/Luger which gets paid off a year later.

Papa Shango vs Bret goes nowhere as they hot shot the title onto Bret. And I'm disappointed we didn't get refined character actor Bret Hart playing a zombie as promised.

Shawn vs Bret gets sidelined after months of build up due to the last minute decision to move SummerSlam to Wembley. There's the weird little blow off ladder match on the Coliseum Video release, then Shawn beats Bulldog and we restart.

There's a lot of time building up the Beverleys for the LOD feud which then becomes largely focused on Rocco instead, and then LOD leave the Beverleys high and dry. I don't recall the Beverleys being this featured as such big deals. I remember them looking like shit against the Bushwhackers at the Rumble and then just being job guys.

The Jimmy Hart/Money Inc/Nasties/Disasters story is fun and a nice use of TV time. I see there's a Headshrinkers vs Nasty Boys brawl from Raw in 93 that I can't wait to watch.

Crush is all over these shows and it's jarring. They initially debut him with these awful black and white vignettes of Baby Crush crushing things. His promos by today's standards feel like insincere heel but they're just inauthentic. Out of nowhere they start playing up "OH BY THE WAY DID YOU KNOW HES FROM HAWAII?" stuff. He's terrible in ring as a face. Using the head vice and keeping it on after the bell. He wrestles like a heel but does a heap of really cool athletic things like springboarding out the ring to the floor that pop the crowd along with his sweet entrance music. Why do they give this guy extended promo time when he is so awful at it?

I wish we'd got more Savage/Razor in ring beyond the tag at Survivor Series.

I watched a load of 1992 Superstars about a year ago, maybe two, and yeah, KVE's "for God and country" promos were quite out of place. 

The Mountie's SUPER shock stick was hilarious.

That LOD "we found Rocco buried in the rubble" vignette is probably one of the worst early '90s WWF segments ever. Complete nonsense. The Beverlys squashing dudes = great. The "sissy" stuff = terrible. 

Crush's terrible Hawai'ian accent and the multicolor tights killed him deader than dead, and that was before Doink made a complete asshole out of him on a weekly basis. People loved a) the Cranium Crunch, b) signaling for the Cranium Crunch, and c) the guitar riff that started his entrance music. There is something there, as limited as Adams was as a worker. It's too bad that Vince is at the point where he's getting the very least out of most of his workers that he can. 

[Cobra Commander]

Extra notes from 5/11/98 Raw:

1) Jim Cornette pretty clearly venting some of his real life angst on screen as he took over for Lawler during the second hour. Undertaker snuck up on Lawler and kicked his ass.

2) Terry Funk doing a spinning toe hold on Raw in 1998 and Bradshaw makes a save because he was attacked earlier while teaching Taka how to drive

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

5 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

I watched a load of 1992 Superstars about a year ago, maybe two, and yeah, KVE's "for God and country" promos were quite out of place. 

The Mountie's SUPER shock stick was hilarious.

That LOD "we found Rocco buried in the rubble" vignette is probably one of the worst early '90s WWF segments ever. Complete nonsense. The Beverlys squashing dudes = great. The "sissy" stuff = terrible. 

Crush's terrible Hawai'ian accent and the multicolor tights killed him deader than dead, and that was before Doink made a complete asshole out of him on a weekly basis. People loved a) the Cranium Crunch, b) signaling for the Cranium Crunch, and c) the guitar riff that started his entrance music. There is something there, as limited as Adams was as a worker. It's too bad that Vince is at the point where he's getting the very least out of most of his workers that he can. 

Yep - the Rocco stuff is really weird, in that they didn't really build LOD up to be on a losing streak or past their best (they saved that for another 6 years time), brought Ellering in, and THEN did the Rocco stuff. Hat on top of a hat on a hat.

The Crush reactions are interesting in that the guy is clearly over, and you're right, the Cranium Crunch is super over when its being put on heels like The Mountie or Repo Man, and then when he keeps it on job guys after the bell, there's kids in the crowd looking really confused/disgusted at him.

[Cobra Commander]

Watching Mid-South

7/9/1983:

Bill recently visited a correctional institute in Hominy, Oklahoma where the inmates watched Mid-South

Bundy's using a powerslam. Plus we get to see Bundy attacking Dusty Rhodes in Houston and a replay of Dibiase/Bundy vs JYD/Duggan. Reed's shoulderblock off the top looked like he was almost flipping over while hitting JYD

If you think about it, running someone into a ringpost really should be sold a little bit more since, in theory, it's a stationary post.

Bill Watts got a letter from a couple from Oklahoma with 176 years combined age who are driving long distances to watch MidSouth

We don't see a lot of shoulderblocks off the top rope these days, do we? at the risk of inspiring people to start doing top rope spears

We're really early into the time of Boris Zhukov, and he's Boris Zurkhov here. I think we're deep in the "JYD is getting fat bulking up to take on Bundy and Reed" era

Here's a clip of Kamala beating up Iron Mike Sharpe to prove that Mid-South is tougher than New York. I think a golf commentator is working this clip.

7/16/1983

awww yes, got a "technical difficulties" disclaimer for this episode!

Dr. Death is back from the USFL this week

When did Arn Anderson stop wearing amazing hats?

We got Dr. Death returning in a Dr. Death/Joe Stark vs Arn Anderson/Big Boy Williams tag team match, which is certainly a choice they made. Or as Bill Watts would tell us, Dr. Death is working himself back into wrestling shape after the USFL season, which was apparently a disappointing season, and Dr. Death is aiming to play for the Denver Gold next year (he didn't). The Dude called Big Boy Williams is the third largest man in the match so the nickname might be a joke. Arn hit a nice Gourdbuster on Joe Stark.

Here's Kamala kicking some ass in World Class. It's possible I should just do a dive into this era of World Class one of these days but I haven't yet.

Bill Watts talking up how many huge dudes are on this show is a very 1983 Mid-South thing. Bill Watts telling the same story about Dr. Death visiting Atlantic City to gather intelligence on King Kong Bundy and how there's a lot of extortion in Atlantic City.

They've changed the spelling of Boris Zurkov's name this week. He's also teaming with Rip Rogers. Rip Rogers slapped Jim Duggan to start off and Bill Watts finds it hilarious for how dumb an idea that seems. TA and Duggan is certainly a hell of a team. "Rip Rogers trying to make a name for himself, he may make one alright, it might be in the obituary column" (that's a good line to steal, Bill Watts spitting bars this in this match)

Johnny Rich can't wrestle Ted DiBiase today due to a hand injury. Ted DiBiase just can't believe that and Jim Duggan takes the match instead and he's out for revenge. King Kong Bundy runs in and beats Jim Duggan with his forearm tape of death. Johnny Rich, Joe Stark, TA and JYD all run in at different times to make saves. Hey, a promotion where the babyfaces actually like each other.

George Weingroff, one of the more Uncle Rico looking wrestlers of the 1980s. He's also legally blind. This goes for a while and it's pretty solid

Tim Horner and Doug Vines take up a few minutes and Horner wins with a Thesz Press

Wrestling II beats Tony Zane as time is running out. Bill Watts sends a message to fans who are fickle on II just because.

So, I don't think this promotion starts really dragging until later in 83? Or was it dragging a bit by July 83?

[odessasteps]

Without spoiling next week's BTS, I found a 2000 WWF PPV not on the Peacock And had to resort to Dailymotion to watch it.

I think its probably due to [name redacted] 

Edited July 12, 2023 by odessasteps

[zendragon]

On 7/9/2023 at 6:54 PM, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

 

Shawn vs Bret gets sidelined after months of build up due to the last minute decision to move SummerSlam to Wembley. There's the weird little blow off ladder match on the Coliseum Video release, then Shawn beats Bulldog and we restart.

 

The Coliseum match was to show Vince the idea of the ladder match.  Bret had the idea to defend the title against shawn in a ladder match at summerslam or do the match with bulldog at wembley. He also made Vince promise to never do a ladder match with anyone else and that became a sore spot for him

 

On 7/9/2023 at 6:54 PM, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

 

They spend a lot of time building up to Sgt Slaughter vs The Mountie after the Mountie uses the shock stick on him. There's a few eight man tags here and there but Slaughter retires and becomes an on screen authority figure (again a weird one - this starts like after SummerSlam 92, he's on screen till about...late 93 maybe? Then never resumes the role on screen till like 97? Is it considered a continued role? He never went away for four years?

 

No, we get WWF President Moonson (not you the ex wrestler and commentator) who then gets written out in 96 due to real life health issues by being attacked by Vader. then they bring in Commissioner Slobber 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

Nah, they had interim president Piper for a while after Monsoon got attacked by Vader, then Monsoon came back, and then Slaughter was the main guy in 1997.

My question was whether he was still technically an authority figure from end of 92 to 97 just rarely seen and it was a continued duration. But think I've answered my own question by realising Slaughter left the company all together from 94 to 97

[Cobra Commander]

watching World Class (6/18/83 and 6/25/83 so far) and The Mongol.. back in the glory days when you could shave the head of a dude from Mississippi and bill him as being from Mongolia (The Mongol being Cousin Luke, FTR)

or as Bill Mercer put it "The Mongol from.... Mongolia"

Edited July 12, 2023 by Cobra Commander

[Cobra Commander]

Brody tossing Kerry onto Michael Hayes was a neat finish for the mid-83 Star Wars match on the 7/2/83 World Class episode.

Now it's on to Clash 11 and the legendary bad main event

Starting off with the Southern Boys (with bedazzled Confederate flag jackets) vs the Freebirds (Michael Hayes is wearing middle-aged Chris Jericho eye makeup tonight). Of course it's not an entirely fair to compare current Chris Jericho with 30something Michael Hayes because Jericho hasn't aged near as quickly as Michael Hayes. Southern Boys win in a few minutes and the crowd is geeked up.

Pretty sure that Bam Bam Bigelow was wearing the same variety of "cover up your fat" top that Vader wore in the WWF in May 1998. Bigelow is facing Tommy Rich here. There's only a 5 year age gap between these two although you wouldn't think that when they were both in ECW in 1997. This match ends in Bigelow being disqualified. Bigelow disappears from the promotion in August.

Between Michael Hayes and Tommy Rich, there have been some workers on this card who aged like bread.

We get a video of Big Van Vader (debuting at the Clash). Gary Michael Cappetta introduces El Gigante. Gary Michael Cappetta apparently speaks Spanish (he taught Spanish in a Catholic High School), good luck to him on using his Spanish with a dude from Argentina. Jorge Gonzales worked in stupid outfits in both companies. Also, it might be a bit of a tipoff of the main event finish that one of the main eventers tonight is announced in a Six Man with Paul Orndorff and El Gigante. I don't know if Finkel spoke Spanish (but his accents on Puerto Rican names seemed to exist) and it wouldn't shock me if Mike Tenay spoke robotic Spanish. If we're doing a roll call of ring announcers/commentators speaking Spanish. Excited for GMC and Tito Santana to launch a podcast about teaching Spanish to kids.

Captain Mike Rotund@ and The Z-Man taking on the SST. Out of those 4, gotta say that Rikishi did a lot more than the consistently boring Rotunda and the never working heel for reasons Zenk. Rotundo doing the same IRS promo over and over is probably more compelling than Captain Mike. I'm gonna make up a bullshit rumor that they wanted to change Cactus Jack's name to Captain Jack but Foley turned it down and they gave the idea to Rotunda. They did a switcheroo finish for a face tag team where the two members wore white and black tights? The SST made it to September before leaving the company.

Gotta love how Mean Mark and Paul E had the same hair style in 1990. Some neat spots in this match. Although Pillman skinning the cat did prevent himself from winning by DQ. Feels like there has to be a more devastating finishing move for a large dude than the Heart Punch or the Hot Shot.

They really busted the budget to put the Rock'n'Roll Express and Midnight Express in front of green screens with a train going by. This matchup would be the best match of the card on a lot of nights, so let's see how it compares to the main event later tonight. Did you know that Stan Lane was originally trained by Ric Flair? Did you that Stan Lane knew Vanna White? MX tried to invent some move and barely avoided screwing it up. A bit of a bullshit finish where the MX is disqualified for Stan grabbing the ref while Bobby is being pinned, while Stan is the legal man in the ring. Well, can't totally smoke the main event so badly.

Doug Furnas is the World's Strongest Man for the purposes of 1990 NWA/WCW (he lasts until August). JR alternating between "Furn-ahs" and "Furn-ess" early. Carroll Campbell's wrestling fan son Mike is at ringside tonight (he's come up in Cornette's podcast stories). Jim Ross takes his chance to say that Doug Furnas is second to Mickey Mantle among athletes from Commerce, Oklahoma. Nice belly to belly by Furnas. Barry Windham beats Furnas with a backdrop and his feet on the ropes.

Sid is in a suit in front of a green screen with horses running around. This company just got use of the green screen technology, didn't they. Sid is accompanied by Ole Anderson. Lex Luger enters the ring and immediately punches Ole. Lex wins really quickly. I guess you gotta fit 10 matches into 2 hours somehow.

Okay, Steiners vs Doom is better than MX/RNR on this show. Hot crowd that wants to chant Peanuthead at Teddy Long. Hilariously bullshitty finish involving an international object and a double pin where Doom is deemed to have won.

This promotion was built on wrestlers who'd be gone by the end of the summer, as you can see from Paul Orndorff being in the last match before the main event. Paul Orndorff vs Arn Anderson isn't for the TV title in case you wanted to know. Yep, Orndorff's right arm sticks out in this match. Hey Paul Orndorff doing a figure four without the spinning toe hold setup in 1990. You don't see the "heel gets his bare ass shown to the crowd" heat spot often these days. Arn doing a lot of non-subtle work to get himself into position to counter a splash. Orndorff wins by reversing a small package. But the match took 11 minutes, so that would be a draw if it was for the TV title in some eras.

We get our first sighting of Ric Flair just before our main event.

JYD probably shouldn't have shaved his head bald. Although I don't know if it made any difference in how fat it made him look. JYD appears to have bulked up to handle the challenge of Ric Flair. Flair defended the title vs Rufus R. Jones in KCK, so 1990 JYD can't be worse than that, can he? The crowd is at least into the match. This match ends in 6 minutes on a DQ. It wasn't long enough to be as bad as it's reputation. Flair basically just ran around and did his thing and JYD was also there.

1990 WCW isn't known as being a good promotion, but the crowd stayed hot until the end of the night.

[odessasteps]

A lot of those matches look great on paper and/or are fun from a historical context (Callous/Pillman).