Dolfan in NYC Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Dewar said: He already went over Cena and Orton clean as a sheet. I would be more concerned with him getting stuck in a Kevin Owens feud. You *don't* want him in potential ****+ matches with a former WWE Champion? I mean, I guess he can feud with Dolph and Mojo Rawley if you really want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinit Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 How was the Nak/KO match in ROH? I've never seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Infinit said: How was the Nak/KO match in ROH? I've never seen it. I recall it being short and mostly built on comedy spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewar Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said: You *don't* want him in potential ****+ matches with a former WWE Champion? I mean, I guess he can feud with Dolph and Mojo Rawley if you really want. When was the last time Owens had a four star match? Not on the new Meltzer six stars for Japan scale, but on the real scale? Maybe against Cena over a year ago. His feud with Styles left a lot to be desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 7 hours ago, MORELOCK said: Hey, cut it out. Here on the board we advance the narrative that he isn't booked strongly. Then he jobbed like a moron to Jinder Mahal and his goofs. Nowadays, it's not so much winning one or two big matches, it's consistently winning and not looking like a moron. He beat Cena and then lost to one of the worst WWE champions of all-time via a terrible finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, cwoy2j said: Then he jobbed like a moron to Jinder Mahal and his goofs. Nowadays, it's not so much winning one or two big matches, it's consistently winning and not looking like a moron. He beat Cena and then lost to one of the worst WWE champions of all-time via a terrible finish. Hey, I"m on your team, buddy. He should never ever lose or show weakness or sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, Dewar said: When was the last time Owens had a four star match? Not on the new Meltzer six stars for Japan scale, but on the real scale? Maybe against Cena over a year ago. His feud with Styles left a lot to be desired. Owen v Reigns at this year's Royal Rumble earned **** 1/2 from Meltzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Nakamura has A) Been given a good record with some strong wins; B) Written to frequently act like a doofus and cut too many long promos; C) Lazed about too much regardless. All of these can be true at once. There's more to good booking than compiling a sterling record. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 14 hours ago, Dewar said: When was the last time Owens had a four star match? Not on the new Meltzer six stars for Japan scale, but on the real scale? Maybe against Cena over a year ago. His feud with Styles left a lot to be desired. Just via Meltzer ratings: vs. Styles, Summerslam and Backlash were both 3.75 MitB '17 was 4.5 (aforementioned) vs. Reigns, Rumble '17 was 4.5 Survivor Series '16 tag match was 4.5 vs. Rollins at HitC '16 was 4. vs. Zayn at Battleground '16 was 4.5. And it goes on from there. I know it's "cool" to think he's a bad wrestler because he had a "bad" title reign (which is also debatable), but don't be willfully ignorant. KO can bring it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 15 hours ago, Beech27 said: Nakamura has A) Been given a good record with some strong wins; B) Written to frequently act like a doofus and cut too many long promos; C) Lazed about too much regardless. All of these can be true at once. There's more to good booking than compiling a sterling record. Exactly. I wasn't saying the guy should never lose or sell. He just shouldn't be made to look like an idiot by losing via Singhinterference or be involved in super long gabfests like everyone else when it's clearly not his strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 You'd find something else to bitch about if they booked Nak exactly like your fantasy booking anyhow. WWE does a whole lot wrong (the 20 minute talk segments are shitty for EVERYONE), so it won't kill you guys to admit when they've booked someone as strongly as they should be. Sorry you don't like Jinder, but a face losing via heel shenanigans is specifically designed to protect the face's credibility. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Conn Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 18 hours ago, Infinit said: How was the Nak/KO match in ROH? I've never seen it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 19 hours ago, MORELOCK said: You'd find something else to bitch about if they booked Nak exactly like your fantasy booking anyhow. WWE does a whole lot wrong (the 20 minute talk segments are shitty for EVERYONE), so it won't kill you guys to admit when they've booked someone as strongly as they should be. Sorry you don't like Jinder, but a face losing via heel shenanigans is specifically designed to protect the face's credibility. I mean... this is a pro wrestling message board, and WWE--as you say--does a lot wrong. So of course people would find things to complain about, or suggest could be improved. But I think it's also pretty clear that people are happy to celebrate when things are done well. The question is really just the difference between "strong" and "done well". That is, Nak has been booked as strongly as he should be, but not as well as he should be. Both can be true, because--I think--both are. Good writing is more nuanced than choosing winners and losers--if it weren't, WWE would be a lot more consistent in getting people the degree of over they desire. Anyway, this stuff is hard and people will react differently and enjoy different things to different degrees, and we will talk about it here because that's what this is for. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Beech27 said: I mean... this is a pro wrestling message board, and WWE--as you say--does a lot wrong. So of course people would find things to complain about, or suggest could be improved. But I think it's also pretty clear that people are happy to celebrate when things are done well. The question is really just the difference between "strong" and "done well". That is, Nak has been booked as strongly as he should be, but not as well as he should be. Both can be true, because--I think--both are. Good writing is more nuanced than choosing winners and losers--if it weren't, WWE would be a lot more consistent in getting people the degree of over they desire. Anyway, this stuff is hard and people will react differently and enjoy different things to different degrees, and we will talk about it here because that's what this is for. I'm not stifling discussion in general, it's just that WWE has fucked over the fan favorites of the IWC for so long it seems to be hard-wired in some people's brains that it's all that's ever going to happen. This is clearly not the case with Nakamura. There will always be room for improvement, especially in the modern WWE environment, but that isn't what people are saying. They're saying Nakamura has been made to look "weak." The opposite of strong. J.T. started this conversation when he asserted that he finds it unlikely that Nakamura will be 1. treated like a main eventer, and 2. positioned above Randy Orton. *Both of those things have already happened.* cwoy2j then said that the real problem was that he isn't "consistently" winning. To suggest that he ISN'T consistently winning is flat out untrue. He has lost *two* matches since his debut, both through heel shenanigans. Every single thing in the WWE could be booked better, top to bottom, but that isn't the conversation we're having. The repeated assertion on this board is that Nakamura hasn't been booked strongly, and he absolutely has. It's just that for some people on this board the only acceptable booking is Undefeated Nakamura goes to WrestleMania as Champion to face AJ Styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, MORELOCK said: I'm not stifling discussion in general, it's just that WWE has fucked over the fan favorites of the IWC for so long it seems to be hard-wired in some people's brains that it's all that's ever going to happen. This is clearly not the case with Nakamura. There will always be room for improvement, especially in the modern WWE environment, but that isn't what people are saying. They're saying Nakamura has been made to look "weak." The opposite of strong. J.T. started this conversation when he asserted that he finds it unlikely that Nakamura will be 1. treated like a main eventer, and 2. positioned above Randy Orton. *Both of those things have already happened.* cwoy2j then said that the real problem was that he isn't "consistently" winning. To suggest that he ISN'T consistently winning is flat out untrue. He has lost *two* matches since his debut, both through heel shenanigans. Every single thing in the WWE could be booked better, top to bottom, but that isn't the conversation we're having. The repeated assertion on this board is that Nakamura hasn't been booked strongly, and he absolutely has. It's just that for some people on this board the only acceptable booking is Undefeated Nakamura goes to WrestleMania as Champion to face AJ Styles. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I wasn't saying that Nak wasn't winning consistently. My point was more general that if you're trying to make someone a top guy, they should win consistently and not be put into situations that don't play to their strengths. Guys don't have to win every match or look like King Kong when they lose. Just don't book them to look like idiots when they do lose (i.e. taking your eye off the champ to deal with his two undersized goons and then losing to a shitty looking finisher) and don't make a guy who clearly doesn't speak English well engage in promo battles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 On 9/20/2017 at 8:51 PM, cwoy2j said: Nowadays, it's not so much winning one or two big matches, it's consistently winning 2 minutes ago, cwoy2j said: Maybe I wasn't clear, but I wasn't saying that Nak wasn't winning consistently. My point was more general that if you're trying to make someone a top guy, they should win consistently Okay, dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, MORELOCK said: Okay, dude. Ok, I said that nowadays it isn't so much winning one or two big matches, it's winning consistently and not looking like a moron. Nakamura wins consistently. He was just made to look pretty dumb when he fought Jinder and that's not good booking. He doesn't have to be undefeated until a WM match against AJ. I'd just like it if they didn't book their faces to look like idiots most of the time. Clear enough dude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, cwoy2j said: He was just made to look pretty dumb when he fought Jinder and that's not good booking. He doesn't have to be undefeated until a WM match against AJ. I'd just like it if they didn't book their faces to look like idiots most of the time. Clear enough dude? Sure. That's a problem with overall WWE booking, though - not Nakamura specifically being made to look weak. He wasn't made to look any weaker than Orton a couple of months ago, and nobody on this board would ever argue that WWE books Orton to look weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, MORELOCK said: Sure. That's a problem with overall WWE booking, though - not Nakamura specifically being made to look weak. He wasn't made to look any weaker than Orton a couple of months ago, and nobody on this board would ever argue that WWE books Orton to look weak. I'd argue that they've made him look pretty stupid this past year with how his feud with Bray went and how he lost to Jinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, cwoy2j said: I'd argue that they've made him look pretty stupid this past year with how his feud with Bray went and how he lost to Jinder. Fine, but you said yourself that it's all part of an overarching "WWE faces are idiots" booking strategy - one that's decades old. The spirit of these complaints are "Oh no Vince is holding one of Our Guys down again at the expense of some roid freak" when it's really just Shitty WWE Booking 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, MORELOCK said: Fine, but you said yourself that it's all part of an overarching "WWE faces are idiots" booking strategy - one that's decades old. The spirit of these complaints are "Oh no Vince is holding one of Our Guys down again at the expense of some roid freak" when it's really just Shitty WWE Booking 101. Ok, but I wasn't saying that. We're not all one big hive mind here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, cwoy2j said: Ok, but I wasn't saying that. I mean, you kind of were. Would the dumb finishes have been as offensive to you if Kevin Owens got the wins instead of Jinder Mahal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 19 hours ago, MORELOCK said: I mean, you kind of were. Would the dumb finishes have been as offensive to you if Kevin Owens got the wins instead of Jinder Mahal? Yes b/c I don't like dumb finishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 Meanwhile.... the tag title match is officially in the Cell So the updated card at the moment is Shane vs. KO - HIAC Jinder vs. Nakamura - WWE Title Natalya vs. Charlotte - SDL Women's Title Usos vs. New Day - HIAC, SDL Tag Titles AJ vs. Corbin - US Title Orton vs. Rusev (Meltzer teased this might be Last Man Standing) Roode vs. Ziggler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Conn Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Seems like a pretty solid card. So Hype Bros vs the Ascension on the Kickoff, with the Ascension picking up a fluke win and Mojo turns on Ryder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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