[MM16] RD1B: SAMI CALLIHAN vs. KAZUCHIKA OKADA

[Concrete]

Because Okada has been at the top of NJPW cards for years means he has to have a handful of GREAT matches by proxy?

[Niners Fan in CT]

Because Okada has been at the top of NJPW cards for years means he has to have a handful of GREAT matches by proxy?

 

Some of them were great and some of them were matches that tried to be epic and didn't quite get there. It's the same issue I have with Cena but Cena was far more egregious and I'll get to that later. I'll go more in depth on Okada in the next round but Sami did absolutely nothing for me so it was an easy Okada win in my eyes.

[Concrete]

I have no problem with people disliking Sami. But I also feel it should be noted that if someone is not a fan of the NJPW main event style nor Okada in general that saying someone, Sami here, who managed a handful of great matches in some months could be a greater number than the great matches put on by someone over the course of years. 

[Zheroen]

You'd have a point if it were not for all of the extremely sub-par work (by any standard, even a fan of Sami's) he put forth as Crowe in NXT over an appreciable stretch of 2015.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I totally get that. I'm not as high on the NJPW main event style as some but I enjoy the fuck out of select pairings.

[HumanChessgame]

Kinda ambivalent about Okada, but I've never gotten Sami at all.  Most of his pre-NXT work I saw was the deathmatch stuff and he didn't stand out in any way there.  His NXT work was uninspiring at best, but I'm not going to hold that limited body of work against him.  The only post-NXT match I've seen of his was the match with Mike Bailey in CZW and that was good, but the good wasn't really on his end.  From what I've seen, he's a guy trying to work a style he just can't pull off.

[supremebve]

 

 

 

 

Callihan has already had more matches I think are great or near great since coming back to the indies than Okada has had in the last three or four years.

Welcome to March Madness Dylan, I hope this is the first of many absurd pieces of hyperbole I'll read from you this year.

How is this hyperbolic?

In every way possible. I'm not saying it is an invalid opinion, people like what they like. Stating that a guy who has been in the indies for a month or two having more great matches than someone who has been at the top of the card putting on critically acclaimed matches over a series of years is a hyperbolic way to say, "I prefer Sami Calihan to Kazuchika Okada."

No. It's just an opinion you don't agree with.

I will say that it may have been ill considered because I forgot about the AJ matches and one of those I really liked a lot.

I'd also say that while I don't really get what is supposed to be great about Okada I've argued for a long time that his value to NJPW has been drastically underplayed by Meltzer and others. So I freely concede that he's a star. I'm just largely indifferent to him as a wrestler.

 

It is an opinion I don't agree with, but I don't find it absurd.  You just tend to state things in a way I find over the top.  For what it is worth, I find most of what you post entertaining whether I agree with it or not.  If you read the first thing I said about these two you'd find that it isn't too far from what you posted above.  I think Okada is a star, and I find his star power more intriguing than I find his wrestling.  I just really appreciate his star power.  Sami is a really good wrestler who was stuck in a situation that minimized his potential for most of the voting period.  In a world without many wrestlers with star power, I can't vote for someone who was wrestling at about 50% of his potential over one of the few legit wrestling stars in the world right now.

[JonnyLaw]

I'm curious how being in a place where your sole job is solely to become a better professional wrestler is being stuck in a situation that minimizes potential as a professional wrestler.

[Matt D]

If all goes well, Sami will be well positioned for next year's tournament.

[Technico Support]

I'm curious how being in a place where your sole job is solely to become a better professional wrestler is being stuck in a situation that minimizes potential as a professional wrestler.

 

If I'm parsing that sentence correctly, you're asking how NXT hurts guys instead of helping?  I'd say it hurts them by teaching them there's only one way to do things.  One way to wrestle, one way to promo, one way to work out (lots of Olympic lifts bro!), etc.  NXT doesn't make you a better professional wrestler.  It teaches you the narrow skillset needed for Monday Night Raw.  For guys who are already talented, it's like taking a Navy Seal and teaching them how to be the doorman at Wal Mart.

[Concrete]

Honestly, which international/indie wrestlers have improved in NXT not because of the style but because NXT is a place to "hone your skills"? From what I've seen, wrestlers have just adapted to a different style rather than becoming inherently better pro grapplers.

 

Not in the voting period but Callihan has another grand match on his resume since his return against Donovan Dijak for Beyond Wrestling. 

[SorceressKnight]

Honestly, which international/indie wrestlers have improved in NXT not because of the style but because NXT is a place to "hone your skills"? From what I've seen, wrestlers have just adapted to a different style rather than becoming inherently better pro grapplers.

 

Not in the voting period but Callihan has another grand match on his resume since his return against Donovan Dijak for Beyond Wrestling. 

 

And even if that's the case, Callihan wasn't good enough to even adapt to a different style. He wasn't good enough to translate his style to this new one when every other big indy signing managed to do it.

 

Solomon Crowe wasn't even able to get an entire fanbase to like him, even though it was full of people who had spent eighteen months begging for his NXT rotation debut solely because they wanted to like him so badly it hurt- and even with how predisposed to like him they were, he STILL couldn't get the NXT fanbase to care about him. 

 

If that STILL means he's even March Madness worthy, let alone worthy of advancing, then  I don't know what this is.

[supremebve]

 

Honestly, which international/indie wrestlers have improved in NXT not because of the style but because NXT is a place to "hone your skills"? From what I've seen, wrestlers have just adapted to a different style rather than becoming inherently better pro grapplers.

 

Not in the voting period but Callihan has another grand match on his resume since his return against Donovan Dijak for Beyond Wrestling. 

 

And even if that's the case, Callihan wasn't good enough to even adapt to a different style. He wasn't good enough to translate his style to this new one when every other big indy signing managed to do it.

 

Solomon Crowe wasn't even able to get an entire fanbase to like him, even though it was full of people who had spent eighteen months begging for his NXT rotation debut solely because they wanted to like him so badly it hurt- and even with how predisposed to like him they were, he STILL couldn't get the NXT fanbase to care about him. 

 

If that STILL means he's even March Madness worthy, let alone worthy of advancing, then  I don't know what this is.

 

I don't know what Sami Callihan did to you, I just hope no one ever does that to me.

[Technico Support]

 

Honestly, which international/indie wrestlers have improved in NXT not because of the style but because NXT is a place to "hone your skills"? From what I've seen, wrestlers have just adapted to a different style rather than becoming inherently better pro grapplers.

 

Not in the voting period but Callihan has another grand match on his resume since his return against Donovan Dijak for Beyond Wrestling. 

 

And even if that's the case, Callihan wasn't good enough to even adapt to a different style. He wasn't good enough to translate his style to this new one when every other big indy signing managed to do it.

 

Solomon Crowe wasn't even able to get an entire fanbase to like him, even though it was full of people who had spent eighteen months begging for his NXT rotation debut solely because they wanted to like him so badly it hurt- and even with how predisposed to like him they were, he STILL couldn't get the NXT fanbase to care about him. 

 

If that STILL means he's even March Madness worthy, let alone worthy of advancing, then  I don't know what this is.

 

 

You're embarrassing yourself, man.  You originally said Callihan was just a deathmatch guy who went to NXT and failed, proving you don't know what you're talking about and are basing your dislike on a very limited, unsuccessful run and what appears to be a general bias against "indy darlings."  If "every other big indy signing" managed to change their entire style to fit, then what happened to Chris Hero?  By all accounts, he didn't like the limits placed on his wrestling and said, "this is not for me."

 

Look, some guys will change it up to fit in to WWE's needs while others either can't or don't want to.  Maybe for some guys it's like teaching a right-hander to write lefty.  I don't know.  I do know that Callihan is a far better wrestler than you give him credit for and I still don't understand your original point, which you've never justified -- that Callihan not catching on in NXT and now having good matches in the indies is somehow an indictment of the indies.  My point was that this is a ridiculous argument and it's far more likely that things just didn't work out in NXT for him for a variety or reasons. 

 

Christ, we're only in round one.  This is going to be an awesome month.

[SorceressKnight]

 

 

Honestly, which international/indie wrestlers have improved in NXT not because of the style but because NXT is a place to "hone your skills"? From what I've seen, wrestlers have just adapted to a different style rather than becoming inherently better pro grapplers.

 

Not in the voting period but Callihan has another grand match on his resume since his return against Donovan Dijak for Beyond Wrestling. 

 

And even if that's the case, Callihan wasn't good enough to even adapt to a different style. He wasn't good enough to translate his style to this new one when every other big indy signing managed to do it.

 

Solomon Crowe wasn't even able to get an entire fanbase to like him, even though it was full of people who had spent eighteen months begging for his NXT rotation debut solely because they wanted to like him so badly it hurt- and even with how predisposed to like him they were, he STILL couldn't get the NXT fanbase to care about him. 

 

If that STILL means he's even March Madness worthy, let alone worthy of advancing, then  I don't know what this is.

 

 

You're embarrassing yourself, man.  You originally said Callihan was just a deathmatch guy who went to NXT and failed, proving you don't know what you're talking about and are basing your dislike on a very limited, unsuccessful run and what appears to be a general bias against "indy darlings."  If "every other big indy signing" managed to change their entire style to fit, then what happened to Chris Hero?  By all accounts, he didn't like the limits placed on his wrestling and said, "this is not for me."

 

Look, some guys will change it up to fit in to WWE's needs while others either can't or don't want to.  Maybe for some guys it's like teaching a right-hander to write lefty.  I don't know.  I do know that Callihan is a far better wrestler than you give him credit for and I still don't understand your original point, which you've never justified -- that Callihan not catching on in NXT and now having good matches in the indies is somehow an indictment of the indies.  My point was that this is a ridiculous argument and it's far more likely that things just didn't work out in NXT for him for a variety or reasons. 

 

Christ, we're only in round one.  This is going to be an awesome month.

 

 

My point is the same it has always been. I have no bias against indy darlings, I have a bias towards the simple facts. And the simple facts are clear. Solomon Crowe's NXT run, in this time period we're voting for, SUCKED. The only difference between Crowe and CJ Parker is Sami Callihan was on the indies beforehand and Parker was not- but somehow because of that alone, that makes Callihan the greatest wrestler in the world, even though Crowe was the only "indy darling" who couldn't even get over on NXT when every NXT fan was BEGGING for him to get over. 

 

Despite that, even though Crowe's run on the indies objectively sucked, the only thing keeping him going for months as a threat was every Callihan fan from before using every possible argument to twist words there were in the book to find reasons, and never accepting "Maybe...JUST MAYBE, Callihan WAS OVERRATED." 

[steve]

I thought people were being hard on you until that last paragraph there.

[Technico Support]

"Callihan's run on the indies objectively sucked?"

 

According to whom? 

 

And you still haven't justified "Sami sucked in NXT and went on to have good matches in the indies which means the indies suck."

 

Nobody is saying he's the best wrestler in the world.  We're just being more reasonable than you.  You're seriously projecting a lot of things on people you disagree with and wrestlers you dislike while also making shit up out of thin air and ignoring any facts that don't work for you. 

 

You need to separate "this is something I personally don't enjoy" from "GAAAHHHH THIS THING IS OBJECTIVELY AWFUL."  For example, I don't like Nakamura's schtick but I realize that, since a lot of people recognize him as a great wrester, then maybe this is not objective and he's just a guy I don't enjoy.  I'm not going to argue with anyone that he's a bad wrestler because that would be incorrect.

 

This argument has ceased being mildly amusing and is entering "banging my head on the wall" territory.

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

Solomon Crowe? More like Solomon No!

 

Bringing you the insight!

[SorceressKnight]

"Callihan's run on the indies objectively sucked?"

 

According to whom? 

 

And you still haven't justified "Sami sucked in NXT and went on to have good matches in the indies which means the indies suck."

 

Nobody is saying he's the best wrestler in the world.  We're just being more reasonable than you.  You're seriously projecting a lot of things on people you disagree with and wrestlers you dislike while also making shit up out of thin air and ignoring any facts that don't work for you.  This argument has ceased being mildly amusing and is entering "banging my head on the wall" territory.

 

First off, you're putting words in my mouth- I said Callihan's run in NXT sucked. 

 

And you're going to be unreasonable, about that, it doesn't change the same thing I said which YOU want to ignore and where you're being as unreasonable as I am, No matter how good Sami Callihan's matches are on the indies this year- I don't care if he's getting five snowflakes with a broomstick every weekend on the indy scene. He's still getting eight months of a terrible NXT run in this time period and ignoring that is also being unreasonable.

[JonnyLaw]

You actually did accidentally say his run in the indies sucked, but I thought it was clearly a typo.

[JonnyLaw]

Double post, so I'll edit to say I love this new narrative that NXT and the Performance Center are actually holding people back now. WWE hatred at its finest.

Man, I wish Samoa Joe had gone the James Storm route and gone back to TNA so he could stop being limited so much.

It's irrelevant since Okada is clearly winning, but I went from not voting on this one since I hadn't watched recent Sami stuff to throwing a spite vote Okada's way.

[Concrete]

I consider the NXT run a wash for better or worse. He's back and absolutely killing it. 

[supremebve]

Double post, so I'll edit to say I love this new narrative that NXT and the Performance Center are actually holding people back now. WWE hatred at its finest.

Man, I wish Samoa Joe had gone the James Storm route and gone back to TNA so he could stop being limited so much.

It's irrelevant since Okada is clearly winning, but I went from not voting on this one since I hadn't watched recent Sami stuff to throwing a spite vote Okada's way.

I don't know if people are saying that NXT is holding anyone back.  I think people are saying that the NXT system isn't for everyone.  Sami Callihan was put into a character that didn't fit him, he had to wrestle a style that didn't work for him, and never really caught on.  He went back to the indys and was able to find his legs almost immediately and start having really good matches again.  That isn't saying that NXT isn't a good system, it is saying that NXT isn't a good system for Sami Callihan.  If you put Aaron Rodgers in an offense that doesn't let him scramble or throw downfield, you'd be putting him in a position that stops him from being his best.  That doesn't mean that offense wouldn't work for someone else, but it clearly wouldn't work for him.

[JonnyLaw]

By most, if not all, accounts, guys are responsible for coming up with their characters. At worst, they're allowed a ton of input and the chance to try new things.

What did Crowe come up with? Shitty troll doll hacker who doesn't hack and does a rebound headbutt to the midsection as a finish?

I don't know that people are saying Sami outright sucks if he can't cut it in NXT (I know I'm not saying that). They are saying that perhaps he isn't as good all around as people make him out to be if he can't.

[Concrete]

By most, if not all, accounts, guys are responsible for coming up with their characters. At worst, they're allowed a ton of input and the chance to try new things.

What did Crowe come up with? Shitty troll doll hacker who doesn't hack and does a rebound headbutt to the midsection as a finish?

I don't know that people are saying Sami outright sucks if he can't cut it in NXT (I know I'm not saying that). They are saying that perhaps he isn't as good all around as people make him out to be if he can't.

Which I think is outright wrong.

 

Also, what am I missing from his NXT run that I can see Crowe utterly fail as a professional wrestler when given reasonable opportunities?