NFL 2023 - WEEK FIVE

[Dolfan in NYC]

I hope you at least had a good time at the stadium,  @RIPPA. 

[Kevin Wilson]

I dunno why people on this forum like Tabe were so positive about Daniel Jones, he sucks. He never scores TDs.

[RIPPA]

Mike Tomlin confirmed that Kenny Pickett is dealing with a bone bruise in his knee

However, they are not ruling out Pickett from playing this Sunday

[NoFistsJustFlips]

2 hours ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I dunno why people on this forum like Tabe were so positive about Daniel Jones, he sucks. He never scores TDs.

Think that's a bit unfair. He might be solid he might suck, hard to evaluate fairly with that O line play. Last year his numbers were average in passing and way above average in rushing. But he's literally never had a single year behind a competent O line.

He's clearly not a guy that can transcend that situation. But lots of good QBs have looked bad when being surrounded by poor line play.

[Kevin Wilson]

10 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Think that's a bit unfair. He might be solid he might suck, hard to evaluate fairly with that O line play. Last year his numbers were average in passing and way above average in rushing. But he's literally never had a single year behind a competent O line.

He's clearly not a guy that can transcend that situation. But lots of good QBs have looked bad when being surrounded by poor line play.

I was mostly just poking fun at Tabe since we argued for the last nine months if Jones was any good and he was on the anti-Jones train. Although he is quite bad so far this year, yea the line is bad but his "first read" issues are legitimate. I hope he gets better as I have nothing against the Giants in general.

I think pretty highly of Daboll from his years at the Bills so I hope they can design some faster developing plays like Tua gets and Barkley being back will help.

[supremebve]

CJ Stroud is a rookie who is playing behind a line that was bad before they all got injured. He's thriving. The Seahawks line was rated worst than the Giants last season,  Geno thrived. The Bills and Dolphins lines are below average. Doesn't seem to stop their quarterbacks from performing well. At a certain point you have to stop blaming everyone else. 

[Cobra Commander]

Aaron Rodgers with infinite free time is gonna go great

 

[Tabe]

20 minutes ago, supremebve said:

CJ Stroud is a rookie who is playing behind a line that was bad before they all got injured. He's thriving. 

And he's doing it with decent receivers but no superstars. Nico Collins has 428 yards already after not even hitting 500 either of his previous two seasons. 

[Tabe]

46 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Think that's a bit unfair. He might be solid he might suck, hard to evaluate fairly with that O line play. 

He sucks. If your 4th year quarterback is "much improved" all the way up to 62% as many touchdowns as he had as a rookie, he sucks. If he averages less than 1 passing TD per game over his last 46 games, he sucks. If he has *3* career 3 TD passing games - and they all came four years ago - he sucks. 

Kevin may have heard some of this before

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, Tabe said:

He sucks. If your 4th year quarterback is "much improved" all the way up to 62% as many touchdowns as he had as a rookie, he sucks. If he averages less than 1 passing TD per game over his last 46 games, he sucks. If he has *3* career 3 TD passing games - and they all came four years ago - he sucks. 

Kevin may have heard some of this before

I may have said some of this before. I do not understand why anyone wants a quarterback who can't average more than a touchdown a game.  Scoring touchdowns is a skill, and most players either have it or they don't. He don't. 

[Cobra Commander]

I mean some baseball fans still aren't sold on the concept that pitchers should strikeout batters, so why wouldn't there be football fans who aren't sold on "QBs are important and should do good stuff"

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 hour ago, Tabe said:

He sucks. If your 4th year quarterback is "much improved" all the way up to 62% as many touchdowns as he had as a rookie, he sucks. If he averages less than 1 passing TD per game over his last 46 games, he sucks. If he has *3* career 3 TD passing games - and they all came four years ago - he sucks. 

Kevin may have heard some of this before

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

I may have said some of this before. I do not understand why anyone wants a quarterback who can't average more than a touchdown a game.  Scoring touchdowns is a skill, and most players either have it or they don't. He don't. 

I'm not saying he's an all time great or even good. I'm saying the takes that cast him as trash, like these, don't account for having a terrible line his whole time in the NFL and not a single top tier or even mid tier receiver his whole time in the NFL.

Put Ryan Tannahil behind that line with those receivers I think the results are mostly the same. But Baker Mayfield in this situation you get mostly the same results. Dare I say put Matthew Stafford in that situation I think he performs worse than Jones because at least Jones is mobile. Can any NFL QB average more than one TD a game with under 2 seconds per play to throw? Lots of shots at him being a first read only guy. Explain to me how there's time for him to get to another read. He was sacked 12 times last night. It was like an NFL D line against middle school kids playing Red Rover, there was zero resistance.

He's average at best but it's situational that he's as bad as he is. You drop him into The Rams or The Bucs or New Orleans or Tennessee he's perfectly acceptable as a mid tier starter in the league. The roster building part of this rebuild has not been good to him and he's just not good enough to put a team on his shoulders like Maholmes. But he's not as bad as his reputation and numbers show.

[Tabe]

He got obliterated by the Seahawks. Not entirely his fault. The pick 6 was brutal though. And he also gets time to throw and... doesn't. Like this play a couple weeks ago with a guy running wiiiiiiide open that he doesn't see and takes a sack:

 

https://twitter.com/danschneiernfl/status/1572004085167165440?s=46&t=PLlJFvqqEX4rv_IuwlgVmg

Edited October 3, 2023 by Tabe

[Kevin Wilson]

14 minutes ago, Tabe said:

He got obliterated by the Seahawks. Not entirely his fault. The pick 6 was brutal though. And he also gets time to throw and... doesn't. Like this play a couple weeks ago with a guy running wiiiiiiide open that he doesn't see and takes a sack:

 

https://twitter.com/danschneiernfl/status/1572004085167165440?s=46&t=PLlJFvqqEX4rv_IuwlgVmg

Tabe posting a tweet from 54 weeks ago, this guy keeps receipts

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Snaps the ball at 4 seconds. Has a free runner coming for him at 7 seconds. That does show a wide open crosser he should have been able to find and he doesn't even move his eyes from that first read. So it does illustrate what you're saying. And I agree with you. That's an egregious lack of finding your open receiver. But it still demonstrate my point too, he had 3 seconds. And that's more time than he's used to.

I think he's seeing ghosts and knows he doesn't have the time to progress through reads. It's first read, mayyybeeeee second read, then take off or get your head knocked off behind that line.

[supremebve]

This amused the hell out of me.  As someone who thinks that every middle of the road quarterback is a quasi-Kirk Cousins this scale needs to be the new test of mediocrity among quarterbacks.

I feel like we've beaten the dead horse that is Daniel Jones and it's starting to reek of suckitude in here.   So, to liven up the smell let's talk about just how stinky the Steelers offense is.  I have a friend who roots for the Steelers, but has hated Mike Tomlin for years.  His explanation is that Tomlin is only as good as his players, he doesn't actually do anything to help them succeed.  I have always dismissed this, because Tomlin has been way too successful to not be doing something right.  But now, I'm starting to see where he's coming from.  Allowing Matt Canada to run your offense for this long is football malpractice.  As a head coach, you do not have to be the most inventive offensive mind to be successful, but you need to be looking for assistants that fill in whatever gaps you have.  Matt Canada doesn't fill gaps, he digs holes, and Tomlin should have to answer for keeping him around this long.  Look at this thread talking about how completely and totally inept they have been over the last few years.

 

[BloodyChamp]

It doesn’t matter if he sucks or not with that OL. The 3 best quarterbacks in the world could be on the Giants and the results would be the same. That OL was that bad against a defense that’s not exactly great. If I were offered $10,000,000 to coach that team and was told to draft a quarterback I’d……make sure the buyout was part of the contract lol!

Edited October 4, 2023 by BloodyChamp

[supremebve]

The NFL Next Gen Stats track time to throw.  The following quarterbacks average less time to throw than Daniel Jones.

Tua Tagovailoa

Joe Burrow

Trevor Lawrence

Dak Prescott

Andy Dalton

Gardner Minshew

Brock Purdy

Mac Jones

Lamar Jackson

Joshua Dobbs

Ryan Tannehill

Desmond Ridder

Justin Herbert

Matthew Stafford

Baker Mayfield

Derek Carr

Jared Goff

Anthony Richardson

[Kevin Wilson]

I feel like this is my fault, I just wanted to poke Tabe as a callback to our months-long discussion about Jones earlier this year. I wish Jones well. He's on my fantasy team. On the bench.

[Contentious C]

If that stats table was supposed to mean anything, I don't think it does.  It's a total hodge-podge of good and terrible quarterbacks with a pretty wide variety of OL quality.  It's less a condemnation of Daniel Jones and more a case of lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Also, Daniel Jones fucking sucks, that's the final word.

[supremebve]

40 minutes ago, Contentious C said:

If that stats table was supposed to mean anything, I don't think it does.  It's a total hodge-podge of good and terrible quarterbacks with a pretty wide variety of OL quality.  It's less a condemnation of Daniel Jones and more a case of lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Also, Daniel Jones fucking sucks, that's the final word.

No, it is a list of people who have less time to throw on average than Daniel Jones.  Sometimes it is because the line is bad, sometimes it is the timing of the offense, and sometimes they process faster than normal.  Whatever the reason, you can't point to his time in the pocket as the primary reason he can't be successful, because most of those players who are using less time are having significantly better seasons.  Having a bad line is a huge disadvantage, but like any other disadvantage its his job to overcome it and perform.  Most of the offensive lines in the league are overmatched by the pass rush.  It is kind of the only advantage the defense has in the NFL.  If you are going to be successful as an NFL starter, you have to be able to perform despite the pressure.  For instance, Joe Burrow before this season has had a horrible offensive line, but was among the best quarterbacks in the league while pressured.  It was to the point where teams stopped blitzing him, because he was better under pressure.  It is part of the job.  

[BloodyChamp]

You have to be able to step up and throw if nothing else. Daniel Jones, for all the hell he is, can do that when he has the opportunity to plant his foot first for heck’s sake. That doesn’t make him great but it makes him cover the first basic thing. He didn’t have that opportunity yesterday.

Jimmy G had that opportunity the Sunday before last in that game. He just didn’t do it and we discussed that IIRC. Mac Jones had even more time to simply step up and attempt a throw this Sunday and didn’t do it. Sometimes it is only a single second that you have time to step up I know, but all the quarterbacks do it. 

Zach Wilson can do it. I mention him just to further show the standard by which quarterbacks can step up and throw are measured, which is not very high. But there are 2 guys that I know of who can’t do it and the OL gets blamed. Then when the OL really is the main problem on a team it’s ignored. 

[Brian Fowler]

I still stand on my previous statements on Jones; he played well enough and showed enough progress last year that bringing him back for this year and hoping Dabol can get him to progress like Allen made sense.

But the only way it made sense was on the franchise tag. Should've offered a fair deal to Barkley and tagged Jones so they could get off him for free after this year if played like... well like he's played so far.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Brian Fowler

[Dolfan in NYC]

 

[RIPPA]