Elsalvajeloco Posted August 13, 2015 Author Share Posted August 13, 2015 Come on now, we can't pretend MMA discussion started after June 13. Nothing is going to change how people felt before Cain lost. Two title defenses. Nothing you list can change the fact that he had two title defenses. I am not talking about title defenses. I am talking about the fact people want to see Jones vs. Velasquez, which was very much the truth. If you were to survey people prior to UFC 188, they definitely weren't going to say "You know what I'll take any HW vs. Jones for the title". All it takes is a five second Google search to find you know....hundreds of results. I'll show you a few. First off, this article of many like it http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2319031-jon-jones-vs-cain-velasquez-superfight-biggest-fight-to-make-in-2015 From May 2015: UFC heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez has long expected to, at some point, fight former light heavyweight champion Jon Jones. And despite the current legal issues surrounding Jones, that hasn't changed. That's not from some random dude from an internet. That's from Brett Okamoto, one of the most respected MMA journalists. Also, from Mr. Okamoto, from 11/2014: Brett Okamoto @bokamotoESPN Jon Jones told me plan is beat DC, win Gus rematch, move to heavy. Believes he'll be best ever with that. Cain would be "fight of my life." Now, THIS is from some random dude on the internet: I can't remember thinking he had soft hands. The fight i was the most down on him was the Kongo fight so i might have said something like that before he KOd Nog because he couldn't put away Kongo. I watch Junior and he is just miles better than Cain. I can't believe he let that no talent ass clown whoop him last time. If Cain wins this fight i am just done with the heavyweight division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 The ship has pretty much sailed on Jones/Velasquez for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 13, 2015 Author Share Posted August 13, 2015 The ship has pretty much sailed on Jones/Velasquez for now. Again, we're talking about prior to UFC 188. If/when Jones comes back and somehow Cain beats Werdum, then it will start up again unless someone truly rises from the ranks at LHW or HW. Doesn't look like the case at LHW. The fact that it sounds like the UFC might need to spend real hard on Fedor could delay that, but then again, there is also a big chance they might not land him. Then it becomes trilogy or bust at heavyweight and then move on to whatever is available after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glfpunk Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I am not talking about title defenses. I am talking about the fact people want to see Jones vs. Velasquez, which was very much the truth. If you were to survey people prior to UFC 188, they definitely weren't going to say "You know what I'll take any HW vs. Jones for the title". You're trying to portray Cain as some dominant champion and you're using talk about him vs. Jon Jones at one point as proof of it. He was the champion. Whoever was the champion at the time would have been in the same shoes because Jon Jones had mowed down the division. This isn't rocket science. The fight was about Jon Jones moving up and fighting for the HW title. It wouldn't have mattered who it was at the time. But you know, you have to catch Cain when he has the belt. He's lost it twice and defended it twice while he had it the second time. So again, no he wasn't a dominant champion. Also thanks for quoting me. Not much has changed with Cain. He's still the same guy who's just big with extremely sloppy standup and that can take a punch like a zombie and keep moving forward. He's still the same guy who can't apply a rear naked choke when he has a guy's back. He's still the same guy who keeps his hands low and is prone to get hit in the chin. He's that guy. He can score a takedown and he can throw power punches and can take a hell of a punch. It can get you pretty damn far in the shallow end of MMA known as the HW division. And yeah, as technique goes, Junior is miles better than Cain. People are reactionary and take today's news as the way shit will be for all time. Same when Brock had the belt. Same when Machida had the LHW belt. "Who could ever beat him?" Somebody pretty soon is who. You let yourself get caught up in this false hype of domination and you're still stuck on it. Step back and look at the big picture sometime and you'll see that Cain had two fucking title defenses. For some reason you can't process that fact and think he was a dominant champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 I am not talking about title defenses. I am talking about the fact people want to see Jones vs. Velasquez, which was very much the truth. If you were to survey people prior to UFC 188, they definitely weren't going to say "You know what I'll take any HW vs. Jones for the title". You're trying to portray Cain as some dominant champion and you're using talk about him vs. Jon Jones at one point as proof of it. Go back and look at what I said. I said he was the most dominant HW champ recently, which you admitted begrudgingly. I think you're badly misinterpreting what I'm saying. No one else has misunderstood except you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 UFC @ufc 1m Big news on @sportscenter at 9:30/6:30pm ETPT! Don't miss it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChesterCopperpot Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Weidman defending vs Rockhold at UFC 194 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glfpunk Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I am not talking about title defenses. I am talking about the fact people want to see Jones vs. Velasquez, which was very much the truth. If you were to survey people prior to UFC 188, they definitely weren't going to say "You know what I'll take any HW vs. Jones for the title". You're trying to portray Cain as some dominant champion and you're using talk about him vs. Jon Jones at one point as proof of it. Go back and look at what I said. I said he was the most dominant HW champ recently, which you admitted begrudgingly. I think you're badly misinterpreting what I'm saying. No one else has misunderstood except you. Nice attempt at backtracking. He had two title defenses. That isn't dominance regardless of what context you try to put it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 How is that backtracking? Look at what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Here are my points: Cain was the most dominant HW champion in recent times, which can't be disagreed with seeing as you agreed People really wanted to see Jones vs. Velasquez, which no one can deny Who on the board will disagree with those two points? Oyaji? VileOne? hammereva? Hail Sabin? Craig? Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 More than dominant Cain was also arguably the most hyped up athlete over the past however many years, hailed as a next generation fighter who was going to take the heavyweight division to new heights (and before anyone says it, not in the "because it has always been trash" way). Even with the one loss to JDS the fact he was a bit banged up and it was a one hit KO (and more importantly the way he took JDS apart in the following fights) gave him a bit of an aura that hadn't quite converted to being a notable draw, but the hope was there. Add in that people wanted to see someone push Jones and how Jones seemed almost a bit too big for the LHW division (perhaps only in perception due to his freakish reach) and it's no surprise that the fight got talked up. That said, I think Cain constantly being hurt has taken away from said aura, and getting beaten handily by Werdum over the course of a fight (as opposed to getting caught with something) has probably taken away even more. It's been nearly two years since people have seen "Cain the Destroyer" and perhaps I am off here but I haven't sensed much excitement surrounding him now. He really could use a fight where he can just go out and smash someone, and he'd probably benefit from getting a few fights in a row in where he doesn't disappear for ages in between. Instead he gets this and it is sort of an all or nothing affair that may generate less interest than if he got to establish that "Cain's back!" beforehand. It seems less like a case of the rematch drawing more than Werdum vs anyone else and more a case of the rematch possibly doing more with each man getting another win or two first. Of course they'll likely go and put it on the same card as a Rousey fight and none of that will matter in the least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Agreed. His athleticism, particularly his stamina, was something new and special for the heavyweight division. Though, as glfpunk has pointed out, his record certainly didn't support the idea that he was clearly head and shoulders ahead of everybody else, the eye test certainly did. The heavyweight division was basically Cain, then JDS, then a whole bunch of guys that had massive, massive flaws in their games. It seemed like outside of another JDS haymaker landing clean, Cain didn't really have much competition and Jones was on the verge of cleaning out the LHW division. I wasn't the only person looking forward to a potential fight between the two most dangerous men on the world. Then cocaine happened. And Werdum. Add to that, now JDS seems like just another dude with a big hole in his game. His head movement is bad but his inability to move out of danger is just killing him. Stumbling straight back and often times right into the cage ain't a good look. It's a good thing his skull is reinforced with cement or something because otherwise he would've been KO'd badly by Stipe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Here are my points: Cain was the most dominant HW champion in recent times, which can't be disagreed with seeing as you agreed People really wanted to see Jones vs. Velasquez, which no one can deny Who on the board will disagree with those two points? Oyaji? VileOne? hammereva? Hail Sabin? Craig? Anyone? At the end of the day, I'm a pragmatist. It's not like I'm not going to avoid watching it or hate it. I just think it was a mistake to go ahead with an immediate rematch looking at how Cain Velasquez lost the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiztor Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 look, don't get me wrong here. i was never completely sold on Cain due to him not showing much technical prowess. He was big, and he could take a punch, and he could maul you like a bear. but i always figured that once somebody with some high level skill got in the mix, he could potentially be in trouble. JDS's striking showed it in their first match (not so much after that tho) and the Werdum fight showed it there too. But i also don't hate on Cain. he's a scary mofo, and was/is regularly beating big bad dudes. i honestly don't know if i would rather fight Cain or a bear. Come on now, we can't pretend MMA discussion started after June 13. Nothing is going to change how people felt before Cain lost. Two title defenses. Nothing you list can change the fact that he had two title defenses. you mean "tied for the most HW title defenses in the history of the UFC?" Can we also talk about how one of those title defenses was against a clearly outmatched Bigfoot, who Cain had already destroyed once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 I know the goalposts constantly change, but I know damn well I wasn't making this stuff up in my head. My argument is not the merit because as I said, it's the heavyweight division for crying out loud. Nobody, from all the MMA pundits I've heard and read, was beating the drum that Cain is P4P this and that. Even Greg Savage who loves the folks at AKA and ATT, where he frequently visits. However, my argument is that doesn't change how people felt BEFORE he lost to Werdum. It would be very Sherdogian for everybody to be like, "Well he lost...now he sucks and I take back what I said about him all the way back to when he beat Minotauro". Just because glfpunk has long had that stance doesn't mean EVERYONE had that stance. The narrative was this was the next great heavyweight that Javy Mendez is telling everyone and their mom about. Then, he beat Nogueira and everyone was onboard that Velasquez train. He beats the shit out of Brock and that's when that ball starts rolling. He stumbled with the first JDS fight and then that ball got rolling again once he massacred Pezao. Then at some point, it turned into that same frustration people have with Cruz. I want to see this guy fight badly, but damn he keeps getting injured. And that's where we were with the talk of JBJ vs. Cain for the last 18-20 months or so prior to Velasquez-Werdum actually going down. What amplified that talk was we didn't have the contender choices like we do now at HW and Jones was murking and/or turning back all challengers. People want to see the best against the best even if it means one guy/girl moving up or down. It's not like people were saying, "you know the big homie Daniel Omielanczuk is out here beasting on folks on Fight Pass so you may as well throw him into the Jon Jones sweepstakes." No, people wanted to skip all that bullshit and have him face Cain Velasquez. Cyborg and Ronda just beat up two women who both had no athletic training or martial arts background prior to getting into MMA. Bethe Correia was a goddamn accountant like two or three years ago. People still want to see it no matter the merit or what odds favor who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Damon Martin @DamonMartin 1m BREAKING: Rafael dos Anjos vs. Cowboy Cerrone headlines FOX UFC Fight Night in Orlando That's 12/19, the week after UFC 194 C'mon Cowboy! One of my favourite fighters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Something I forgot to post is Nicolas Dalby is fighting Darren Till, who is coming off a brutal KO win over Wendell Negao, on the Dublin show. That's a good fight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Damon Martin @DamonMartin 1m BREAKING: Rafael dos Anjos vs. Cowboy Cerrone headlines FOX UFC Fight Night in Orlando That's 12/19, the week after UFC 194 C'mon Cowboy! One of my favourite fighters. This fight better happen. That's all I will say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail Sabin Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Damon Martin @DamonMartin 1m BREAKING: Rafael dos Anjos vs. Cowboy Cerrone headlines FOX UFC Fight Night in Orlando That's 12/19, the week after UFC 194 C'mon Cowboy! One of my favourite fighters. This fight better happen. That's all I will say. Depending on the rest of the card I might see if my buddies want to watch the event live since it's only a 4 hour drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Karim Zidan @ZidanSports 58m Another Fedor update: Emelianenko has received offers from the UFC and Bellator. The former is significantly more lucrative. Hmmm. If Bellator had the same presence PBC has being on 12 different channels (some that are rivals too) then this might be a tad bit different. Also, I think people are more wiser and know that the ceiling for a non-UFC MMA PPV is 100k. Promoters aren't throwing out ridiculous Bob Arum type buy predictions unless it's super niche stuff like BKB that's bound to go away eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 Apparently, CABMMA let strawweight fighter Kinberly Novaes fight while she was three months pregnant back in May. No one knew because Novaes was suppose to fight on the RFA USA vs. Brazil show this upcoming Friday, and she just found out she was six months pregnant. Brazilian combat sports regulation....still kinda ghetto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 Greg Savage @TheSavageTruth 47s Talking to @TeamKhabib He says @makhachevmma is fighting Adriano Martins @ufc 192 in Houston on Oct. 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Apparently, CABMMA let strawweight fighter Kinberly Novaes fight while she was three months pregnant back in May. No one knew because Novaes was suppose to fight on the RFA USA vs. Brazil show this upcoming Friday, and she just found out she was six months pregnant. Brazilian combat sports regulation....still kinda ghetto This is a lot worse than kinda ghetto and people should be fired over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 Apparently, CABMMA let strawweight fighter Kinberly Novaes fight while she was three months pregnant back in May. No one knew because Novaes was suppose to fight on the RFA USA vs. Brazil show this upcoming Friday, and she just found out she was six months pregnant. Brazilian combat sports regulation....still kinda ghetto This is a lot worse than kinda ghetto and people should be fired over this. Oh, it gets better. After doing a little digging, it turns out Noxii Combat is not regulated by CABMMA because CABMMA only regulates shows where the promoter pays them to regulate it. Thus, this was an unregulated show which left the testing and other pertinent event related formalities to the promoter. When it comes to the promoter of Noxii Combat, you can see we're not dealing with the brightest bulb in the chandelier: The event promoter of Noxii, Bruno Barros accepts the blame. Noxii is not regulated by the Brazilian MMA Athletic Commission (CABMMA). He told MMAFighting.com: “I didn’t ask for the exam. That’s the truth. I didn’t even think about the possibility of a woman fighting while pregnant, going through a camp and dehydrating and everything.” “That was my first event. I asked for HIV and hepatitis tests, but some fighters didn’t send me the results. I didn’t pull them out of the fights because they all wanted to fight. Some fighters claimed they had no money to pay for the tests, others said they didn’t have time to do it, but that’s my fault that I let them fight anyway. But thank God everything is fine with the baby. So when it comes to events, Barros can buy trophies and whatnot for the fighters. However, making sure fighters aren't pregnant or positive for HIV or hepatitis is low on the priority list. Lord, please help these people. All this reminds me of what Jim Genia said about the underground amateur MMA scene in New York about a couple months ago. This is a goddamn shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 MMAjunkie @MMAjunkie now UFC 192 adds Joseph Benavidez vs. Ali Bagautinov, Rose Namajunas vs. Angela Hill http://dlvr.it/Bt81Nq via @MMAjunkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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