Sports What-Ifs

[Thomas Bugg]

What if Thurman Thomas hadn't lost his fucking helmet in the Super Bowl?

 

What is Stanley Wilson had stayed off the nose candy before the big game? Hell, what if he went his entire career without it?

 

What if Sam Rutigliano had called for a field goal attempt?

 

What if the 1981 Chargers hadn't played defense like their feet were stuck in the mud?

[Josh Mann]

Re the 81 Chargers: Their offense still freezes to death in Cincinnati.

[Kyle Casey]

It's probably fresh in my mind because I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball again, but here's a couple I've been pondering:

 

What if John Montgomery Ward's Players League had been successful? One of the key tenants of the Player's League was that there was no reserve clause, so I think if it had survived it would have fundamentally changed the history of the sport.

 

Unlikely as it may be to consider, what if an owner broke the "gentleman's agreement" and signed a black player? It would have had to have been before 1919, before Kenesaw Mountain Landis came to power, as he was dead set against integration. Would it have opened the door for full integration, or would the experiment have failed because not enough people, fans and players, were "ready" for that? And who would've been the one to break the color barrier?

[Kuetsar]

It's probably fresh in my mind because I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball again, but here's a couple I've been pondering:

 

What if John Montgomery Ward's Players League had been successful? One of the key tenants of the Player's League was that there was no reserve clause, so I think if it had survived it would have fundamentally changed the history of the sport.

 

Unlikely as it may be to consider, what if an owner broke the "gentleman's agreement" and signed a black player? It would have had to have been before 1919, before Kenesaw Mountain Landis came to power, as he was dead set against integration. Would it have opened the door for full integration, or would the experiment have failed because not enough people, fans and players, were "ready" for that? And who would've been the one to break the color barrier?

Neither the public nor the fellow players were ready for that in the teens.  When Chapman died after his beaning, Speaker and other teams mates fought along Catholic/Protestant lines about where he was going to be buried. Chapman had converted for his wife, but speaker and the rest of his protestant team mates fought against burying him in a catholic cemetetry and were successful.  In a world were that sort of conflict/prejudice was still very much active, racial lines would have been hard to cross.

 

I just finished reading a Speaker bio, and he was a Klan member in his younger days, and he wouldn't have been the only one. His involved seemed to be only social(growing up in Texas in that era, those things happened), but he seems to have grown out of it, as he helped Larry Doby when he first broke in with the Indians in the 1940's. 

 

Not excusing racial prejudice at all, but only fifty or so years after the Civil War it was a very different time than today, and I can't see the majority of players backing an integrated majors. Guys like Nap Lajoie(who helped propose the color code in the first place) were still active, or just retired. The whole of baseball was a hostile place, very rough and tumble, and losing a spot to someone of another race is something the white players wouldn't have gone alone with.

[EdA]

It's probably fresh in my mind because I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball again, but here's a couple I've been pondering:

 

What if John Montgomery Ward's Players League had been successful? One of the key tenants of the Player's League was that there was no reserve clause, so I think if it had survived it would have fundamentally changed the history of the sport.

 

 

Yeah, first.  The Burns Baseball doc is visually pleasing....and visually pleasing.  For a bit anyway.  The historical accuracy in that is umm...boy, it's visually pleasing.  Yeah.

 

Well, the Player's League was doomed from the start as the sheer amount of leagues in the late 19th century was...staggering.  Honestly, Burns is the only person to really give the Players League any weight.  It was merely another league at the wrong place and time.  Now, if the ideas for this league were pushed into the Federal League a good 15-20 years later, MAYBE the reserve clause idea would have been stricken down sooner.  But really, no owner was going to let that die without the courts forcing their hands.

 

 

Unlikely as it may be to consider, what if an owner broke the "gentleman's agreement" and signed a black player? It would have had to have been before 1919, before Kenesaw Mountain Landis came to power, as he was dead set against integration. Would it have opened the door for full integration, or would the experiment have failed because not enough people, fans and players, were "ready" for that? And who would've been the one to break the color barrier?

Neither the public nor the fellow players were ready for that in the teens.  When Chapman died after his beaning, Speaker and other teams mates fought along Catholic/Protestant lines about where he was going to be buried. Chapman had converted for his wife, but speaker and the rest of his protestant team mates fought against burying him in a catholic cemetetry and were successful.  In a world were that sort of conflict/prejudice was still very much active, racial lines would have been hard to cross.

 

I just finished reading a Speaker bio, and he was a Klan member in his younger days, and he wouldn't have been the only one. His involved seemed to be only social(growing up in Texas in that era, those things happened), but he seems to have grown out of it, as he helped Larry Doby when he first broke in with the Indians in the 1940's. 

 

Not excusing racial prejudice at all, but only fifty or so years after the Civil War it was a very different time than today, and I can't see the majority of players backing an integrated majors. Guys like Nap Lajoie(who helped propose the color code in the first place) were still active, or just retired. The whole of baseball was a hostile place, very rough and tumble, and losing a spot to someone of another race is something the white players wouldn't have gone alone with.

 

 

It was Cap Anson not Lajoie who gets the infamy for the color barrier.  Whether he is truly to blame or not is...debatable.

 

It's probably a given that the color barrier was going to happen through at least the 20's.  The US in the late 19th century and early 20th was really fucked on race issues - not just baseball, but the country as a whole.  Really, there was some whacked out shit going on with people of all race, creeds and colors.  You think Selma in the 50's were bad?  Jeez, anyone not white and Protestant in the late 19th century was living dangerously - ANYWHERE in the US.

 

So the best bet for integration would have been the 20's, and Landis was not going to let that happen.

[Kuetsar]

 

It's probably fresh in my mind because I just watched Ken Burns' Baseball again, but here's a couple I've been pondering:

 

What if John Montgomery Ward's Players League had been successful? One of the key tenants of the Player's League was that there was no reserve clause, so I think if it had survived it would have fundamentally changed the history of the sport.

 

 

Yeah, first.  The Burns Baseball doc is visually pleasing....and visually pleasing.  For a bit anyway.  The historical accuracy in that is umm...boy, it's visually pleasing.  Yeah.

 

Well, the Player's League was doomed from the start as the sheer amount of leagues in the late 19th century was...staggering.  Honestly, Burns is the only person to really give the Players League any weight.  It was merely another league at the wrong place and time.  Now, if the ideas for this league were pushed into the Federal League a good 15-20 years later, MAYBE the reserve clause idea would have been stricken down sooner.  But really, no owner was going to let that die without the courts forcing their hands.

 

 

Unlikely as it may be to consider, what if an owner broke the "gentleman's agreement" and signed a black player? It would have had to have been before 1919, before Kenesaw Mountain Landis came to power, as he was dead set against integration. Would it have opened the door for full integration, or would the experiment have failed because not enough people, fans and players, were "ready" for that? And who would've been the one to break the color barrier?

Neither the public nor the fellow players were ready for that in the teens.  When Chapman died after his beaning, Speaker and other teams mates fought along Catholic/Protestant lines about where he was going to be buried. Chapman had converted for his wife, but speaker and the rest of his protestant team mates fought against burying him in a catholic cemetetry and were successful.  In a world were that sort of conflict/prejudice was still very much active, racial lines would have been hard to cross.

 

I just finished reading a Speaker bio, and he was a Klan member in his younger days, and he wouldn't have been the only one. His involved seemed to be only social(growing up in Texas in that era, those things happened), but he seems to have grown out of it, as he helped Larry Doby when he first broke in with the Indians in the 1940's. 

 

Not excusing racial prejudice at all, but only fifty or so years after the Civil War it was a very different time than today, and I can't see the majority of players backing an integrated majors. Guys like Nap Lajoie(who helped propose the color code in the first place) were still active, or just retired. The whole of baseball was a hostile place, very rough and tumble, and losing a spot to someone of another race is something the white players wouldn't have gone alone with.

 

 

It was Cap Anson not Lajoie who gets the infamy for the color barrier.  Whether he is truly to blame or not is...debatable.

 

It's probably a given that the color barrier was going to happen through at least the 20's.  The US in the late 19th century and early 20th was really fucked on race issues - not just baseball, but the country as a whole.  Really, there was some whacked out shit going on with people of all race, creeds and colors.  You think Selma in the 50's were bad?  Jeez, anyone not white and Protestant in the late 19th century was living dangerously - ANYWHERE in the US.

 

So the best bet for integration would have been the 20's, and Landis was not going to let that happen.

 

I stand corrected. . . keep in mind too that there were three MLB southern teams(both Stl and Was), and all the teams trained in the south. Even if a "progressive" northern city had been accepting of a black player, the southern trips would have been hell on earth for them.

[EdA]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was Cap Anson not Lajoie who gets the infamy for the color barrier.  Whether he is truly to blame or not is...debatable.

 

It's probably a given that the color barrier was going to happen through at least the 20's.  The US in the late 19th century and early 20th was really fucked on race issues - not just baseball, but the country as a whole.  Really, there was some whacked out shit going on with people of all race, creeds and colors.  You think Selma in the 50's were bad?  Jeez, anyone not white and Protestant in the late 19th century was living dangerously - ANYWHERE in the US.

 

So the best bet for integration would have been the 20's, and Landis was not going to let that happen.

 

I stand corrected. . . keep in mind too that there were three MLB southern teams(both Stl and Was), and all the teams trained in the south. Even if a "progressive" northern city had been accepting of a black player, the southern trips would have been hell on earth for them.

 

 

Of course.  St Louis and Cincy, which was considered southern-esque, were brutal for Jackie Robinson when be broke in.  Of course, you also have to take in consideration that teams played exhibitions on off-days anywhere they could pick up a game...sometimes below the Mason-Dixon line...so yeah.  Not a lot of good scenarios.

 

BUT, let's not fool ourselves, the North had a ton of backwards notions about race too.  I mean, shoot, a city like Boston STILL has issues with race.

 

And the late 19th Century was supremely fucked up for anyone who was not a white, male protestant.

 

A lot of headway was made in the 20's and that COULD have been the earliest time for integration.  But again, Landis - not that Landis was the only problem.

[Tabe]

 

BUT, let's not fool ourselves, the North had a ton of backwards notions about race too.  I mean, shoot, a city like Boston STILL has issues with race.

 

Correct.  The Red Sox didn't integrate until the middle of 1959, the last team to do so.

[OSJ]

And with that, let's segue into:

 

1. What if Tom Yawkey wasn't a racist twat? Do we get to see Willie Mays batting behind Ted Williams?

 

2. What if the Sawx didn't trade the Babe?

 

3. Say there's no Jimmie Foxx, what does Joe Hauser accomplish in the majors? (Dude hit of sixty taters in AAA back when it was arguably a third major league.

 

4. What if Landis had thrown Speaker and Hornsby out of baseball for gambling? Are they still in the HOF?

 

5. What if Hornsby had been a nice guy? Would he have stayed on the Cards his entire career, gone on to manage the Gas House Gang?

[Tabe]

I'm not sure Joe Hauser does much more than he did.  He had a good year in 1924 but missed all of 1925 with a leg injury and didn't do a whole lot after that.  Had good power but played in microscopic parks in the minors, hence his outlandish stats.  Probably deserved more than the 37 games he got with Cleveland in 1929 but it's not like anybody was beating down his door after that either.

[SorceressKnight]

And with that, let's segue into:

 

2. What if the Sawx didn't trade the Babe?

 

 

The Red Sox were in a no-win situation at that time. Now that the "Curse"  has been laid to rest, people can get past the romanticized "Harry Frazee sold Ruth to the Yankees to finance a play" and into the more accurate "Babe Ruth had become a clubhouse cancer, he frequently threatened to retire to become a boxer or an actor, and it had gotten to the point where the Red Sox had to trade him no matter how good he was just to get that guy off the team". 

 

So, if Babe Ruth stayed on the Red Sox...you get the 2012 Red Sox team 90 years beforehand and Dan Shaughnessy needs to find some other excuse.

[Kuetsar]

And with that, let's segue into:

 

1. What if Tom Yawkey wasn't a racist twat? Do we get to see Willie Mays batting behind Ted Williams?

 

2. What if the Sawx didn't trade the Babe?

 

3. Say there's no Jimmie Foxx, what does Joe Hauser accomplish in the majors? (Dude hit of sixty taters in AAA back when it was arguably a third major league.

 

4. What if Landis had thrown Speaker and Hornsby out of baseball for gambling? Are they still in the HOF?

 

5. What if Hornsby had been a nice guy? Would he have stayed on the Cards his entire career, gone on to manage the Gas House Gang?

As to number four, Landis couldn't throw Cobb and Speaker(or Hornsby) out. The reason being is the public(then or now) has never really known how much gambling baseball players did pre 1919.  There are allegations that at least one world Series(1918, 1915) was fixed.  The stuff Cobb and Speaker were suspended for was meeting under the stands to determine the 3rd place money for the 1919? season. According to the Speaker bio I read(not trying to throw that around, its just the most recent book on period i've read) if they banned stars of that level for life, it might have killed the game. The way the author put it(he might have been quoted someone) was that the 1919 white sox died for alot of sins.

 

Another neat little tidbit from the book was about Joe Jackson's appeal to Landis. He allegedly said that the gamblers never even paid him all the money they promised. . . .

[EdA]

 

And with that, let's segue into:

 

1. What if Tom Yawkey wasn't a racist twat? Do we get to see Willie Mays batting behind Ted Williams?

 

2. What if the Sawx didn't trade the Babe?

 

3. Say there's no Jimmie Foxx, what does Joe Hauser accomplish in the majors? (Dude hit of sixty taters in AAA back when it was arguably a third major league.

 

4. What if Landis had thrown Speaker and Hornsby out of baseball for gambling? Are they still in the HOF?

 

5. What if Hornsby had been a nice guy? Would he have stayed on the Cards his entire career, gone on to manage the Gas House Gang?

As to number four, Landis couldn't throw Cobb and Speaker(or Hornsby) out. The reason being is the public(then or now) has never really known how much gambling baseball players did pre 1919.  There are allegations that at least one world Series(1918, 1915) was fixed.  The stuff Cobb and Speaker were suspended for was meeting under the stands to determine the 3rd place money for the 1919? season. According to the Speaker bio I read(not trying to throw that around, its just the most recent book on period i've read) if they banned stars of that level for life, it might have killed the game. The way the author put it(he might have been quoted someone) was that the 1919 white sox died for alot of sins.

 

Another neat little tidbit from the book was about Joe Jackson's appeal to Landis. He allegedly said that the gamblers never even paid him all the money they promised. . . .

 

 

It's safe to say that PROBABLY every WS up through the 1919 WS had at least a thrown game or two - for certain, there is plenty of hearsay that the 17 and 18 WS had at least thrown games and many people still believe the 1914 WS was totally thrown.  

 

The problem was not only the gambling element being too close to the players, but the WS bonuses were based on total gates.  So neither team wanted a short series and less money.  Travelling on the same trains to and fro WS locations, players would mingle and decide to throw a game here and there to max out the amount of games.   At this point, I only feel comfortable in the Connie Mack teams being mostly on the up-and-up...but even then...Mack was the manager of the 1914 A's. 

 

And, ironically, there is an Edd Roush bio written by, I believe, a grandchild of his, stating Roush was infuriated by the Reds supposedly throwing at least one game in the 1919 WS to max out the amount of games.  The total irony is Roush went to his grave insisting the Reds would have won the 19 WS no matter if the Sox had thrown games or not - knowing full well, his team threw at least one game in the series. 

 

And, post 1919, there were whispers about Carl Mays throwing games for the Yankees in the 21-22 WS.  Then again, Carl Mays was a bad dude.

 

And yeah, the expulsion of the Black Sox was mostly a Landis PR move as his first act as commissioner to regain the trust of the general public.  Other players would get tossed out of baseball for gambling connections post-Black Sox, but Landis generally did that on the sly.  Whether Cobb, and Speaker SHOULD have been thrown out, is still murky.  But given how Landis squashed the issue as quickly as possible and both players being essentially released by their teams right after exoneration (granted, both were done, but still), there's a lot of funniness with that which can lead you to believe Landis was going to do nothing more than slap two of his biggest stars on the wrist.

[Kuetsar]

If anyone is interested in the guy behind the fix, Arnold Rothestein, david pietusza wrote a good recent biography of him. Its not just about the fix, but has alot of other good stuff about the underworld in the 1920's.

 

[Tabe]

There's also a brand new biography of Charles Comiskey, written by Tim Hornbaker (the guy who wrote the huge NWA book), that is supposed to shatter some myths you might hold about Comiskey.

[sabremike]

What if Claude Lemieux doesn't score the game 7 OT winner in the 1986 Adams Division Finals vs my Whalers? I still think if they won that game they win the cup, and all the misfortune that came after never happens.

[Thomas Bugg]

 

 

 

What if Butler's bank shot goes in against Duke?

 

That one shot prevented the biggest upset in tourney final history. As opposed to next year, when a 6 year old with polio could shoot better than Butler against UConn!

 

 

That was the worst title game I've ever seen.  The Women's final, between Notre Dame and Texas A&M, the next night was light years better.

 

 

Is it possible that maybe UConn and Butler both put too much emphasis on defense and forgot how to shoot the ball?

[LooseCannon]

What if, instead of Magic Johnson, it is Michael Jordan who retires in 1991 after announcing he has HIV?

[Thomas Bugg]

i know this is a painful memory, but Gary Anderson in 1998 attempted 41 field goals, including 6 attempts in the playoffs. What if he'd went 41 for 41?

[Thomas Bugg]

What if, instead of Magic Johnson, it is Michael Jordan who retires in 1991 after announcing he has HIV?

 

The Lakers don't have quite the downward spiral that they had in the 90's, as they still had Worthy, Scott, Perkins and AC, but they don't win any titles.

[BobbyWhioux]

I'm pretty sure we've done this on previous iterations of the board because I'm sure my What If has been "what if Wayne isn't traded to the Kings?" but I can't seem to find that post here.

 

So, re-submitting:

 

What if Wayne Gretzky is never traded to the Kings?

 

[More in the sense of the NHL as a whole, less the on-ice fortunes of the Oilers and Kings specifically]

[Tabe]

No hockey in Anaheim.

[BobbyWhioux]

No hockey in Anaheim.

 

Tell me more about this idyllic alternate universe

[Thomas Bugg]

What if Marvin Lewis had been selected as the head coach of the Bucs before the 2002 season rather than Chucky? I'm sure the Bucs would've still kicked ass on defense like they did.

 

Or what if Coughlin or Mike Mularkey had been selected for Bengals job over Lewis?

[Serious Darius Bagfelt]

I'm pretty sure we've done this on previous iterations of the board because I'm sure my What If has been "what if Wayne isn't traded to the Kings?" but I can't seem to find that post here.

 

So, re-submitting:

 

What if Wayne Gretzky is never traded to the Kings?

 

[More in the sense of the NHL as a whole, less the on-ice fortunes of the Oilers and Kings specifically]

 

Wayne was going somewhere if not LA then New York or Toronto maybe but realistically a better question would be what if Bruce McNall didnt buy the LA Kings.  Since Bruce for all intents and purposes took over the league after the Gretzky deal and was the one that did the expansion to Anaheim and Florida deals and hired Gary Bettman.