WWE and Endeavor To Merge

[Matt D]

@Dolfan in NYCshut the thread a day too early.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/02/wwe-ufc-endeavor-deal.html

[cubbymark]

CNBC is reporting UFC's parent company Endeavour will buy WWE, merging it with UFC. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/02/wwe-ufc-endeavor-deal.html

 

[A_K]

Huh. Something of a weird bedfellow. Combat sports and essentially a theatrical/stunt company. The two are as alike as boxing & the MCU. WWE May be able to leverage UFC IP but UFC can do nothing meaningful with WWE.

V interesting that Disney / none of the consumer big tech giants were in for it.

Edited April 2, 2023 by A_K

[For Great Justice]

If they don’t call the public holding company Titan Sports we’re doing it wrong 

[Steventon]

All the legacy WWE and UFC content (and the respective libraries they own) on a single streaming platform and consolidating live events operations sounds like a compelling proposition from a business perspective, I can see it. It will be a surreal day for WWE to no longer be a McMahon family business though.

[Ace]

Dana & Vince. Together. Ick.

 

[nofuture]

Even funnier, Vince will be Dana's boss now.

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

39 minutes ago, Steventon said:

All the legacy WWE and UFC content (and the respective libraries they own) on a single streaming platform and consolidating live events operations sounds like a compelling proposition from a business perspective, I can see it. It will be a surreal day for WWE to no longer be a McMahon family business though.

I don’t like the streaming idea for the simple fact WWE shows will cost way more than they’re worth. With what UFC is charging for PPVs there’s no way WWE stays at $10 if they combine and leave Peacock.

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

Just now, nofuture said:

Even funnier, Vince will be Dana's boss now.

Based on what? The report from Meltzer doesn’t read that way at all.

[Elsalvajeloco]

It's finally time for neckbeards from one segment of society to embrace neckbeards of another segment of society. WELCOME, MY SWEATY AND SLIGHTLY DISHOVELED FRIENDS!

27 minutes ago, Steventon said:

All the legacy WWE and UFC content (and the respective libraries they own) on a single streaming platform and consolidating live events operations sounds like a compelling proposition from a business perspective, I can see it. It will be a surreal day for WWE to no longer be a McMahon family business though.

To have people (folks who happen to be fans of BOTH at the time) tell it almost ten years ago on the eve of both Fight Pass and the WWE Network launching, the UFC content ain't worth jackshit. Based on their feelings, you would think it would be WWE that would be buying UFC. Now I wanna get in a time machine and tell those same people that, "yeah, someone might own both UFC and WWE and it ain't gonna be Vince." It would be totally inconceivable for them.

41 minutes ago, A_K said:

Combat sports and essentially a theatrical/stunt company. The two are as alike as boxing & the MCU. 

Funny you should say that. For the last...I wanna say ten years at least, people have been complaining about too many theatrics in combat sports especially UFC. Boxing itself is the "theater of the unexpected", so yeah.

In business, there is no such thing as strange bedfellows.

Quote

WWE May be able to leverage UFC IP but UFC can do nothing meaningful with WWE.

Based on what? Also, it isn't UFC that owns WWE. Endeavor would own both.

Now, I have my skepticism but it's purely based on how Endeavor runs UFC. If that's any indication, then you're in for a bumpy ride and expect it to be wildly different than any McMahon regime.

Speaking of that...

43 minutes ago, Steventon said:

It will be a surreal day for WWE to no longer be a McMahon family business though.

 "It ain't a horse that can't be rode and it ain't a rider that cannot be thrown."

[nofuture]

11 minutes ago, LF2 said:

Based on what? The report from Meltzer doesn’t read that way at all.

The CNBC report is saying Vince will be executive chairman of the new company while Dana and Nick Khan will be Presidents of UFC and WWE each, so Vince will definitely be over Dana.

Edited April 2, 2023 by nofuture

[cubbymark]

17 minutes ago, Ace said:

Dana & Vince. Together. Ick.

 

At least it's not Vince and Prince bin Salman.

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 minutes ago, LF2 said:

I don’t like the streaming idea for the simple fact WWE shows will cost way more than they’re worth. With what UFC is charging for PPVs there’s no way WWE stays at $10 if they combine and leave Peacock.

Even though I am a hardcore boxing fan, I found the price of the Tank Davis vs. Ryan Garcia ($85) in the daily Observer update the other day. I love both guys as fighters, but that's fucking absurd. Twenty years, the tops of any PPV was $50.

Mayweather vs. McGregor and Canelo's DAZN deal basically upset the market. Now they can charge you anything and get away with it. DAZN basically marching into the PPV business after coming into combat sports to hopefully supplant the PPV model basically tell you there is still money in the PPV model. Vince being foolish and giving all that money away hasn't done anything to upset the apple cart.

[Greggulator]

Okay. So what it likely seems like is this: 

1) Yes, Endeavor is “merging” WWE and UFC and making it its own company. But that does not mean the two companies will have anything to do with each other beyond having the same ownership. Kellogg owns Frosted Flakes and Gardenburger. Both are on separate shelves of the grocery aisle. That is how I imagine the set-up will be. Two brands with some “synergies” together but they will be marketed and licensed and everything completely separate from each other.

2) Vince has a role but it is not a dictatorial role. It is more than a token role but there is no way he will Have the power to do anything by himself. He has a voice in the business as executive chairman but someone else is the CEO and Vince can’t fire him outright because Endeavor owns most of the company. 

3) Things always change when there are mergers. But what changed with UFC after it got bought? I really have no idea because I do not watch UFC. But it feels like - and please tell me if I am wrong - that UFC blew up into a national sport with a big audience after Endeavor bought it? 

4) It also all comes down to TV streaming rights and how people will pay for the IP of the WWE. I really think there is a good chance that in five years we see the UFC still sort of on ESPN but with PPVs, WWE on both Fox and USA, and all the WWE archives on Peacock.

[Greggulator]

8 minutes ago, nofuture said:

The CNBC report is saying Vince will be executive chairman of the new company while Dana and Nick Khan will be Presidents of UFC and WWE each, so Vince will definitely be over Dana.

Not really. Ari Emanuel and whoever the other Endeavor President are over Dana. Vince has some position of importance as chairman of the board but he does not have the authority to fire Dana White. Endeavor can just tell Vince to go shove and get him off the board since they will actually own WWE.

[For Great Justice]

I’m very curious what this means for the upcoming TV rights package. Looking at existing UFC partners, could Fox (SD) + ESPN (Raw, obviously with MNF considerations) + ESPN+ (PLE) be the move?

Edited April 2, 2023 by For Great Justice

[A_K]

19 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

Funny you should say that. For the last...I wanna say ten years at least, people have been complaining about too many theatrics in combat sports especially UFC. Boxing itself is the "theater of the unexpected", so yeah.

In business, there is no such thing as strange bedfellows.

Based on what? Also, it isn't UFC that owns WWE. Endeavor would own both.

Now, I have my skepticism but it's purely based on how Endeavor runs UFC. If that's any indication, then you're in for a bumpy ride and expect it to be wildly different than any McMahon regime.

Speaking of that..

On what basis would an unscripted world of elite, weight-class based combat sports be unable to derive value commensurate to a multi-billion $ acquisition of a world in which deadmen can be controlled by urns, 5 ft 6 guys are known to become heavyweight champions fighting 7 fters to no contests, God is known to have been involved as a combatant & 35 yr olds run around in storylines pretending to be their identical brother … hmm, let me give that some thought. Or, better yet, perhaps you can tell me exactly what elements of WWE IP the UFC could leverage that wouldn’t deservedly be laughed out of the building?

And yeah if you want to equate the ‘theatrics’ of boxing & UFC to the carnival scripted fantasy land of WWE then I’ve got some magic beans to sell you. 
 

Endeavor clearly have a plan to squeeze blood from the WWE story given how leveraged the debt is (whether it proves value or not time will tell), but in no universe is WWE closer to the combat/martial arts world than it is Marvel and Disneyland. It is a scripted soap opera with stunts thrown in.

Edited April 2, 2023 by A_K

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, A_K said:

And yeah if you want to equate the ‘theatrics’ of boxing & UFC to the carnival scripted fantasy land of WWE then I’ve got some magic beans to sell you. 

Dana White isn't running WWE. Endeavor is. Endeavor was film and TV.

[Elsalvajeloco]

24 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

Okay. So what it likely seems like is this: 

1) Yes, Endeavor is “merging” WWE and UFC and making it its own company. But that does not mean the two companies will have anything to do with each other beyond having the same ownership. Kellogg owns Frosted Flakes and Gardenburger. Both are on separate shelves of the grocery aisle. That is how I imagine the set-up will be. Two brands with some “synergies” together but they will be marketed and licensed and everything completely separate from each other.

Bingo.

24 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

2) Vince has a role but it is not a dictatorial role. It is more than a token role but there is no way he will Have the power to do anything by himself. He has a voice in the business as executive chairman but someone else is the CEO and Vince can’t fire him outright because Endeavor owns most of the company. 

Hell, based on Vince's age and Dana's own proclivities alone, there is a good chance both ain't around in 5-10 years. So the specific hierarchy between the two really won't matter IMO. Moreover, the problem itself for the last several years has been Dana being his own boss. That's why he stayed after the sale. The day Dana cannot do that is the day Dana leaves. And he ain't left yet.

24 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

3) Things always change when there are mergers. But what changed with UFC after it got bought? I really have no idea because I do not watch UFC. But it feels like - and please tell me if I am wrong - that UFC blew up into a national sport with a big audience after Endeavor bought it? 

I don't know if honestly UFC is larger in a specific sense than what is was between 2006-2011. They have TV rights deals that tell you it's much bigger, but much like WWE and wrestling in general, have fans tell you and it's not the glory days. Prior to Endeavor, there was a bunch of oversaturation in terms of content that it forced a bunch of fans (hardcore and casual) to possibly leave. Now that said, they repositioned themselves to be powered on superstars. Without Brock, Ronda, Conor, and all the craziness prior to 2016, I doubt UFC gets sold for a crazy amount. The oversaturation and the fact that 2013-2014 was very lean in terms of big fights didn't hurt them at all. So after the sale, Endeavor basically decided that UFC would basically what WWE is terms of we are the brand for EVERYTHING in combat sports to the point where boxing has been hurled into a small little corner fighting for survival. UFC still has stars so don't get me wrong, but UFC is flourishing because the landscape outside of UFC is practically barren. They have a monopoly on combat sports just cause boxing ceded a bunch of power in a slew of political shakeups (HBO losing boxing hurt a ton) and no real competitor in the MMA world. As I've mentioned before, Dana or anyone else (see Steph) could never run a successful boxing promotion due to politics. However, at this point, why would they? 

The monopoly has basically crippled their competitors and everything adjacent to it....save for WWE. Why not be owned by the same entity?

 

[John from Cincinnati]

Seeing some speculation about what this news would spell for potential talent cuts. Anybody have any insight on that front or be willing to hazard a guess at what's coming there?

[Matt D]

3 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Seeing some speculation about what this news would spell for potential talent cuts. Anybody have any insight on that front or be willing to hazard a guess at what's coming there?

It probably being a good thing that AEW is getting a Saturday show too?

[A_K]

Given the high jinks going on with oil states slashing production & just how easily inflation could boon again / interest rates on debt could go significantly higher, pretty miraculous that Endeavor will also be paying at least a 250-300% premium on the value of the company 2 years ago w/o factoring in the higher cost of debt. McMahon was probably licking his lips. Vince was a very savvy operator who knew the business inside & out, but Endeavor somehow have the inside track on how to crank more value w/ somewhat limited crossover potential compared to other possible synergies w/ other corps? Will believe this deal goes through once the ink is on the dotted line. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by A_K

[Greggulator]

1 minute ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Seeing some speculation about what this news would spell for potential talent cuts. Anybody have any insight on that front or be willing to hazard a guess at what's coming there?

There’s always a possibility that WWE before the new owners take over may want to trim some fat from the budget. But I doubt it would be a major hemorrhaging. More like what you usually see with budget cuts in the WWE.

[For Great Justice]

Definitely independent entities but just like any other M&A there are a ton of back office efficiencies here. Production specifically - one fleet of trucks, rigging, AV, wiring, lighting. It’s a massive save if they align UFC to the WWE touring schedule, which I’m sure they will to at least a degree.

[Elsalvajeloco]

9 hours ago, A_K said:

On what basis would an unscripted world of elite, weight-class based combat sports be unable to derive value commensurate to a multi-billion $ acquisition of a world in which deadmen can be controlled by urns, 5 ft 6 guys are known to become heavyweight champions fighting 7 fters to no contests, God is known to have been involved as a combatant & 35 yr olds run around in storylines pretending to be their identical brother … hmm, let me give that some thought. Or, better yet, perhaps you can tell me exactly what elements of WWE IP the UFC could leverage that wouldn’t deservedly be laughed out of the building?

And yeah if you want to equate the ‘theatrics’ of boxing & UFC to the carnival scripted fantasy land of WWE then I’ve got some magic beans to sell you. 
 

Endeavor clearly have a plan to squeeze blood from the WWE story given how leveraged the debt is (whether it proves value or not time will tell), but in no universe is WWE closer to the combat/martial arts world than it is Marvel and Disneyland. It is a scripted soap opera with stunts thrown in.

Just delving into more of your stupidity, the content itself is not merging. Both can exist in the same world because both have already existed in the same world in been highly successfully. For the last quarter century, people have been saying they won't going to watch anymore WWE or UFC. Guess what? Both sold for a multiple of what anyone thought they could be.

And stop with the soap opera shit. Soap operas have been what they are since day one of Erica Kane. To cast pro wrestling (forget just WWE) and UFC into plain boxes of this is what they are is underselling the fact they have been incredibly flexible to what the market trends are. If UFC was just purely sport, then it would have went out with the dinosaurs. Hell, people thought K-1 in the Ernesto Hoost/Remy Bonjasky/Mirko CroCop days would supersede everything just because the production values were slick. Twenty years later, you would be hard pressed to find K-1 running shows in venues bigger than Korakuen Hall. Having storylines does not make WWE successful just like having athletes doesn't make UFC successfully. UFC (and boxing before that) were successful due to the number of factors including but not limiting it to having the same type of cathartic drama that pro wrestling can sometimes offer. To reduce it to "this is what UFC is" and "this is what WWE is" and it's chocolate and bacon is to not see why both are now extremely successful.