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RING OF HONOR in 2022... in AEW


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The Problem

The way I see it, the actual heart / soul / defining characteristics of what made ROH "ROH" all started to fade once they were sold to Sinclair. There were still good workers and good content being produced. But it lacked a real vision of what ROH stood for. All of the classic first gen guys had moved on. It wasn't much longer until even the second wave stars like Steen / Generico / Cauldio had moved on. The only thing keeping ROH going for a while was the NJPW partnership. ROH was where you could see the much more popular New Japan guys in America. Once AEW started and wave three left (Bucks, Omega, Cody) all they had left was a bare bones crew and New Japan. Then they lost New Japan with the debacle that was the booking of the MGS show.

I say all of this to say ROH didn't really have any defining stylistic characteristics left, post Sinclair sale. They were sort of just this home of good wrestling with no real heart at the center. Delirious as their booker leaned further into generic tv wrestling with tv characters. Yes they still had dudes who could really go in the ring. They still had some colorful unique characters like Dalton Castle. But there was no real identity. No real brand credo or purpose. It was kind of just an indy with a great history once AEW started. They lacked any ambition. They lacked a brand identity. They lacked real top tier stars to replace that third wave that left when AEW started.

Gresham is an amazing technical worker. But he isn't Joe or Punk. He isn't Steen or Generico. He isn't The Bucks. He lacks that star power. Same with everyone else left in ROH. Bandido & Rush are great workers. But they never had the star power to solidify a fourth generation either. Delirious didn't have a vision for the company. He only had a vision for making sure he kept his job. Status quo. Bare minimum. He rode New Japan popularity as far as it would take him. And in the end, post AEW, ROH had no identity to speak of.



The Solution

Whatever they end up being in this next iteration, they would be wise to not worry about what ROH was (when it was purchased). Roll back the clock and find the pulse that was there until the Sinclair sale. Don't waste your time worrying about what the remaining ROH fans will think. The amount of them that were left in 2021 are not enough to cater to. Come up with a brand identity of the future. Play off of the history. But ultimately just do your own thing. If what they were doing in 2021 was working they wouldn't have been sold. But whatever they do should be different enough from AEW to be distinct.

It needs to be the alternative. A change of pace. It can't just be the Raw to AEW's Smackdown. That shit is just too similar and waters down the popularity of main brand. I agree with HarryArchieGus' POV. I think the way you make it distinct is you fill the card with very young performers. Maybe not specifically by age. But by TV age. Lee Moriarty is the prototype. Someone who fits what original ROH was in that he's super technically sound. But he's also TV young enough to be very different from what AEW generally puts on TV. Gresham, Moriarty, Garcia as the core. Then some of the lower down the totem pole guys in AEW like Aaron Solo and The Gunn Club and Top Flight getting real chances at bat to grow into stars (like 2014 NXT did for Pac & Sami).

You use it as a REAL developmental like NXT was, but you stick the landing when you call the new stars up. You get the best of both worlds. Signing away WWE stars sometimes. But also creating and debuting your own stars too.

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1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

The Problem

The way I see it, the actual heart / soul / defining characteristics of what made ROH "ROH" all started to fade once they were sold to Sinclair. There were still good workers and good content being produced. But it lacked a real vision of what ROH stood for. All of the classic first gen guys had moved on. It wasn't much longer until even the second wave stars like Steen / Generico / Cauldio had moved on. The only thing keeping ROH going for a while was the NJPW partnership. ROH was where you could see the much more popular New Japan guys in America. Once AEW started and wave three left (Bucks, Omega, Cody) all they had left was a bare bones crew and New Japan. Then they lost New Japan with the debacle that was the booking of the MGS show.

I say all of this to say ROH didn't really have any defining stylistic characteristics left, post Sinclair sale. They were sort of just this home of good wrestling with no real heart at the center. Delirious as their booker leaned further into generic tv wrestling with tv characters. Yes they still had dudes who could really go in the ring. They still had some colorful unique characters like Dalton Castle. But there was no real identity. No real brand credo or purpose. It was kind of just an indy with a great history once AEW started. They lacked any ambition. They lacked a brand identity. They lacked real top tier stars to replace that third wave that left when AEW started.

Gresham is an amazing technical worker. But he isn't Joe or Punk. He isn't Steen or Generico. He isn't The Bucks. He lacks that star power. Same with everyone else left in ROH. Bandido & Rush are great workers. But they never had the star power to solidify a fourth generation either. Delirious didn't have a vision for the company. He only had a vision for making sure he kept his job. Status quo. Bare minimum. He rode New Japan popularity as far as it would take him. And in the end, post AEW, ROH had no identity to speak of.

I mostly agree with what you're saying here, but I think the problems throughout ROH's two decade history were always a combination of presentation and booking.  When the booking was good the presentation was still only something a thirsty 'hardcore' wrestling fan could get into.  They never understood contemporary style outside the rasslin' bubble.  I'd say Jim Cornette as Booker is the quintessential example.  Jim has lots of knowledge of old angles and finishes to remaster, but no clue of how to present it.  Modern style/presentation is not something he was ever capable of comprehending.  Not in '94, not throughout the OVW run, and certainly not in 2009.

Starpower, drawing talent, is obviously very important to any company, but ROH was generally speaking more about turnover and the rising stars.  I didn't watch throughout, but was there ever a time that they had enough money, or were willing to spend enough money, to maintain talent?  I actually really liked how the consistent turnover presented opportunities for new stars to emerge.  I felt the same way about ECW.  I'm not suggesting that it helped to lose anybody (especially the names you listed), but  creating new stars in the last couple years was a, if not thee, major problem.  There was still more than enough skilled performers on that roster to make it happen.  They just never understood how to put said talent into situations to advance.  Watching ROH TV over the past couple years was next to impossible without a ffwd option.  I can't recall too many promos that didn't come off as corny.  I mean the whole show felt corny.  Further, they didn't seem to have such a keen eye for assessing available indy talent.  A big part of what made ROH, at its best, a place to keep your eye on.   
 

Quote

  The Solution

Whatever they end up being in this next iteration, they would be wise to not worry about what ROH was (when it was purchased). Roll back the clock and find the pulse that was there until the Sinclair sale. Don't waste your time worrying about what the remaining ROH fans will think. The amount of them that were left in 2021 are not enough to cater to. Come up with a brand identity of the future. Play off of the history. But ultimately just do your own thing. If what they were doing in 2021 was working they wouldn't have been sold. But whatever they do should be different enough from AEW to be distinct.

It needs to be the alternative. A change of pace. It can't just be the Raw to AEW's Smackdown. That shit is just too similar and waters down the popularity of main brand. I agree with HarryArchieGus' POV. I think the way you make it distinct is you fill the card with very young performers. Maybe not specifically by age. But by TV age. Lee Moriarty is the prototype. Someone who fits what original ROH was in that he's super technically sound. But he's also TV young enough to be very different from what AEW generally puts on TV. Gresham, Moriarty, Garcia as the core. Then some of the lower down the totem pole guys in AEW like Aaron Solo and The Gunn Club and Top Flight getting real chances at bat to grow into stars (like 2014 NXT did for Pac & Sami).

You use it as a REAL developmental like NXT was, but you stick the landing when you call the new stars up. You get the best of both worlds. Signing away WWE stars sometimes. But also creating and debuting your own stars too.

I think your last paragraph presents the question mark that will decide the value of the company going forth.  Tho, I do feel confident they won't be making the same mistakes of the Titan Sports brand.    

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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12 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Starpower, drawing talent, is obviously very important to any company, but ROH was generally speaking more about turnover and the rising stars.  I didn't watch throughout, but was there ever a time that they had enough money, or were willing to spend enough money, to maintain talent?  I actually really liked how the consistent turnover presented opportunities for new stars to emerge.

I don't disagree with this thought. But I think, and this is just me talking out loud, that this point of view is not as common with more casual viewers. The companies that do have that high turnover rate have trouble growing. You need a certain level of constancy in your brand awareness to break through. ECW is a good example for this. The shows were consistently fun, even with constantly losing their stars to the bigger guys. Like Tajiri & Super Crazy & Jerry Lynn were all awesome. But if you could get new viewers interested by showing them the height of the storytelling (Raven / Deamer, Taz / Sabu, etc.) they would turn the show on and not see any of these stars or stories anymore. Turning on 2000 ECW and hoping to see some of the guys you've heard of but getting Justin Credible instead was a turnoff to people who wanted to watch a show with a familiar face.

For ROH to have been successful they would have needed to keep more than just The Briscoes for the long haul. Like WCW had a lot of turnover between 1989 and 2001. But For the most part you were always going to have the backbone present. Some combination of Sting, Flair, Luger, & The Stieners at anytime. ROH would have needed a backbone of The Briscoes, and a Punk / Danielson, Joe, Claudio, Steen. But there in lies the rub, if you're a star you grow. If the company isn't willing or isn't able to grow with you they are going to get left in the dust. The ROH / ECW problem. Too big to be small but too small to be big.

The future ROH can't try and be an equal to AEW on star power. It would just muddy the waters. It needs to be less than, for the health of both places. But to your point, turnover is fun. But it needs a distinct core that holds the place together and gives the brand some familiarity. NXT ran into this problem too. Too much turnover is just tough to replicate success with. Once Sami, & Pac, & The Horsewomen, & FTR, & Alpha Academy & Finn were gone they just didn't have that brand identity anymore. It needs to be a balance of turnover and an established backbone to truly be healthy.

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54 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I don't disagree with this thought. But I think, and this is just me talking out loud, that this point of view is not as common with more casual viewers. The companies that do have that high turnover rate have trouble growing. You need a certain level of constancy in your brand awareness to break through. ECW is a good example for this. The shows were consistently fun, even with constantly losing their stars to the bigger guys. Like Tajiri & Super Crazy & Jerry Lynn were all awesome. But if you could get new viewers interested by showing them the height of the storytelling (Raven / Deamer, Taz / Sabu, etc.) they would turn the show on and not see any of these stars or stories anymore. Turning on 2000 ECW and hoping to see some of the guys you've heard of but getting Justin Credible instead was a turnoff to people who wanted to watch a show with a familiar face.

For ROH to have been successful they would have needed to keep more than just The Briscoes for the long haul. Like WCW had a lot of turnover between 1989 and 2001. But For the most part you were always going to have the backbone present. Some combination of Sting, Flair, Luger, & The Stieners at anytime. ROH would have needed a backbone of The Briscoes, and a Punk / Danielson, Joe, Claudio, Steen. But there in lies the rub, if you're a star you grow. If the company isn't willing or isn't able to grow with you they are going to get left in the dust. The ROH / ECW problem. Too big to be small but too small to be big.

The future ROH can't try and be an equal to AEW on star power. It would just muddy the waters. It needs to be less than, for the health of both places. But to your point, turnover is fun. But it needs a distinct core that holds the place together and gives the brand some familiarity. NXT ran into this problem too. Too much turnover is just tough to replicate success with. Once Sami, & Pac, & The Horsewomen, & FTR, & Alpha Academy & Finn were gone they just didn't have that brand identity anymore. It needs to be a balance of turnover and an established backbone to truly be healthy.

No, for sure.  I agree they needed to maintain stars for a the kind of $ucce$$ you're talking about.  I was talking more about a sustainable minor success - being the alternative, but being a successful alternative.  What I assume the new iteration will be aiming for.  A level I believe they will achieve.  

Quote

Turning on 2000 ECW and hoping to see some of the guys you've heard of but getting Justin Credible instead was a turnoff to people who wanted to watch a show with a familiar face.

The ECW example is a bit more difficult for me to get behind.  Questionable World Title holders aside, the Mikey/Tajiri-FBI feud alone was reason to care all the way to the closure.  Also, the year started out relatively strong with Mike Awesome as Champion, but you're more talking about post-Awesome ECW.  And regardless, to your point, yeah, they'd have been more viable with the Duds, and Taz and everybody they lost just prior to going on TNN.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I don't disagree with this thought. But I think, and this is just me talking out loud, that this point of view is not as common with more casual viewers. The companies that do have that high turnover rate have trouble growing. You need a certain level of constancy in your brand awareness to break through. ECW is a good example for this. The shows were consistently fun, even with constantly losing their stars to the bigger guys. Like Tajiri & Super Crazy & Jerry Lynn were all awesome. But if you could get new viewers interested by showing them the height of the storytelling (Raven / Deamer, Taz / Sabu, etc.) they would turn the show on and not see any of these stars or stories anymore. Turning on 2000 ECW and hoping to see some of the guys you've heard of but getting Justin Credible instead was a turnoff to people who wanted to watch a show with a familiar face.

For ROH to have been successful they would have needed to keep more than just The Briscoes for the long haul. Like WCW had a lot of turnover between 1989 and 2001. But For the most part you were always going to have the backbone present. Some combination of Sting, Flair, Luger, & The Stieners at anytime. ROH would have needed a backbone of The Briscoes, and a Punk / Danielson, Joe, Claudio, Steen. But there in lies the rub, if you're a star you grow. If the company isn't willing or isn't able to grow with you they are going to get left in the dust. The ROH / ECW problem. Too big to be small but too small to be big.

The future ROH can't try and be an equal to AEW on star power. It would just muddy the waters. It needs to be less than, for the health of both places. But to your point, turnover is fun. But it needs a distinct core that holds the place together and gives the brand some familiarity. NXT ran into this problem too. Too much turnover is just tough to replicate success with. Once Sami, & Pac, & The Horsewomen, & FTR, & Alpha Academy & Finn were gone they just didn't have that brand identity anymore. It needs to be a balance of turnover and an established backbone to truly be healthy.

I'd argue that the generation of NXT guys post Finn/American Alpha/Horsewomen actually took a NXT up another level until Vince sent them on a suicide mission competing against AEW. Ciampa as heel champion was incredible, you had amazing debuts from Nakamura, Bobby Roode, a returning Drew McIntyre, Adam Cole (and the formation of the Undisputed Era in Brooklyn), and Ricochet to name a few, and a bunch of great stories (the Ciampa/Gargano break-up and feud, the Undisputed Era as a new generation type of Horsemen, Aleister Black developing into a superstar, and the Velveteen Dream becoming a high-level homegrown star before his awful behavior and indiscretions torpedoed his career). While Vince being hands off allowed for NXT to flourish as a popular brand until the formation of AEW, he royally fucked up not making a bunch of people major stars that were handed to him to a silver platter.

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Just to follow up/confirm something from the end of the last page

Per Meltzer (and expected by many) - the Sinclair TV show is officially over

https://www.f4wonline.com/news/ring-of-honor/roh-tv-airs-final-episode-on-sinclair-broadcast-group

"Sinclair did not have interest in continuing to air the product after selling the wrestling company to AEW owner Tony Khan."

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Good to see it confirmed. Realistically it was impossible to continue ROH on Sinclair after TK revealed the Warner Media contracts have a clause where AEW can't work with another network at the same time as Warner Media. So all of these moves have to be approved of. And I don't think they would be okay letting AEW stars randomly pop up on Sinclair stations for ROH shows. From a network exec standpoint that would water down the appeal of the product they purchased the rights to for big money.

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Personally I don't think the new RoH even needs TV to be successful. I could easily see them running a GCW-esque schedule where they have a Friday/Saturday pair of shows and then not run one for two or three weeks. Especially in today's climate with FITE.tv I think there's a way to navigate this and NOT need TV.

But, that all also depends on what vision you have for RoH. Do you want it to be a cult like ECW/GCW type promotion or would you rather have it selling out big arenas like Takeovers were. Who knows, maybe there's a balance that you could pull off within that. Say running your smaller venue shows but building up to supercards once every 3-4 months in those larger arenas.

What makes this fascinating is there are so many potential routes you could go with this. I'm all for the brand symmetry between AEW/RoH - but there should be a solid balance between "indy guys" like Alex Zayne or Blake Christian showing up and also having some established stars like Briscoes/FTR/Joe/Gresham/etc.

This is also coming from someone who has attended approximately ONE RoH show and it was a Global Wars show with NJPW to see all the New Japan guys. Oh, and Jeff Cobb too. THATS who RoH should've built around.

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5 hours ago, RIPPA said:

Just to follow up/confirm something from the end of the last page

Per Meltzer (and expected by many) - the Sinclair TV show is officially over

https://www.f4wonline.com/news/ring-of-honor/roh-tv-airs-final-episode-on-sinclair-broadcast-group

"Sinclair did not have interest in continuing to air the product after selling the wrestling company to AEW owner Tony Khan."

Expected, but also relieving in a way.  There's nothing good about being associated with a company like Sinclair Broadcasting.    

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53 minutes ago, Krone Meltzer said:

Personally I don't think the new RoH even needs TV to be successful. I could easily see them running a GCW-esque schedule where they have a Friday/Saturday pair of shows and then not run one for two or three weeks. Especially in today's climate with FITE.tv I think there's a way to navigate this and NOT need TV.

But, that all also depends on what vision you have for RoH. Do you want it to be a cult like ECW/GCW type promotion or would you rather have it selling out big arenas like Takeovers were. Who knows, maybe there's a balance that you could pull off within that. Say running your smaller venue shows but building up to supercards once every 3-4 months in those larger arenas.

What makes this fascinating is there are so many potential routes you could go with this. I'm all for the brand symmetry between AEW/RoH - but there should be a solid balance between "indy guys" like Alex Zayne or Blake Christian showing up and also having some established stars like Briscoes/FTR/Joe/Gresham/etc.

This is also coming from someone who has attended approximately ONE RoH show and it was a Global Wars show with NJPW to see all the New Japan guys. Oh, and Jeff Cobb too. THATS who RoH should've built around.

If ROH had been bought by anyone else, 100% on board with all of that. But I think you forgot the main purpose of ROH going forward (presumably). It exists to develop talent for AEW. Develop them and get them practice at TV wrestling. Having no TV does not get them ready for AEW TV ya know?

Like the NXT coconut loop got them ring time in WWE. But it didn't teach them how to react to commercial breaks and where the cameras are and how to restructure your match on the fly because of timing issues. That's why they started the NXT Network TV show.

That kind of knowledge and practice is wayyyyy more important to AEW's success than having a fun sister promotion people like. TV is kind of a necessary component to developing the skills wrestlers need for AEW's product.

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I don't see how ROH is meant to operate as an AEW developmental when all the current champs are being presented as top stars for the AEW brand, other than Jonathan Gresham. 

Also, how badly does AEW truly even need a developmental product right now? Are guys like Brian Cage really going to be content working the developmental and being an ROH guy? 

If you already own AEW, I don't really see the value of owning and running ROH in 2022 outside of its tape library.

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Dark and Dark Elevation are for reps.  An equivalent to 'Shotgun' or 'Superstars' or 'Wrestling Challenge' or whatever they call it now.  ROH would be their 'NXT'.  Sorta.  Kinda.

'Developmental' is a word being thrown around in here.  TK's answer to 'what ROH will be' wasn't so on the nose.  There will be developmental concerns (new guys), re-ups (like a Brian Cage), and some stars (Joe, FTR, AEW talent coming and going) to sell the sizzle.  I also expect certain veterans (Gresham, Lethal) will always be around to tie it all together and lead potential developmental talent.  Perhaps I overlook all the things that could maybe possibly sorta kinda go wrong, but I see very little reason not to be excited by all the potential fun.    

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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31 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Dark and Dark Elevation are for reps.  An equivalent to 'Shotgun' or 'Superstars' or 'Wrestling Challenge' or whatever they call it now.  ROH would be their 'NXT'.  Sorta.  Kinda.

'Developmental' is a word being thrown around in here.  TK's answer to 'what ROH will be' wasn't so on the nose.  There will be developmental concerns (new guys), re-ups (like a Brian Cage), and some stars (Joe, FTR, AEW talent coming and going) to sell the sizzle.  I also expect certain veterans (Gresham, Lethal) will always be around to tie it all together and lead potential developmental talent.  Perhaps I overlook all the things that could maybe possibly sorta kinda go wrong, but I see very little reason not to be excited by all the potential fun.    

NXT wasn't a thing while Shotgun and Superstars were on though. 

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10 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

Are guys like Brian Cage really going to be content working the developmental and being an ROH guy? 

Does it pay better than IMPACT?

There are a lot of guys like Cage. Part of the most bloated talent surge the industry may ever see (Attitude Era kids who turned pro), has been on enough TV to have a degree of name value to hardcore and mid-level fans, and is likely on the back-half of his career. This is the time to collect paychecks, show up on whatever TV will have you, sell 8x10s and see which indies are near your house if you want to work weekends. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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10 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

I don't see how ROH is meant to operate as an AEW developmental when all the current champs are being presented as top stars for the AEW brand, other than Jonathan Gresham.

Well we aren't even to step one yet. Step one is them having their own stand alone shows. Until we get to that point you don't see the value in raising the profile of the ROH Titles? Or building brand equity and awareness through AEW? Was the ROH Pure Title doing better popularity wise on Josh Woods? Or is it more prominent on Yuta than it had been in forever? If we get a year down the road and FTR are still the ROH tag champs and defending them on Dynamite you'll have a very valid point. As is, we'll have to wait and see if they really want Samoa Joe to be a top AEW star while holding a midcard ROH Title. My sense is that goes away once ROH is up and running.

 

10 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

Also, how badly does AEW truly even need a developmental product right now? Are guys like Brian Cage really going to be content working the developmental and being an ROH guy?

Do they NEED one? Maybe, maybe not. But is it a luxury that will be a net positive to the product? Yes. It will help. My best demonstration of this is Cena's US Open Challenges. Remember that time in Montreal when Sami Zayn was introduced by Bret Hart and worked Cena? You remember that reaction? That's because Sami got way fucking over in NXT. And the WWE audience in his hometown lost their shit getting to see him. Does that moment still happen without the NXT run for Sami? No. There is absolutely value in creating your own stars on a separate platform to bring over, and the awesome moments that will bring.

Will a Brian Cage be content being in developmental? Well there's going to be frustrations. It's bound to happen. But would a Brian Cage enjoy having no contract at all more? Because he was for sure a goner if ROH wasn't purchased. He keeps a steady check and has a place to work now. The brass ring will always be go down to ROH and find some missing pieces. Put it all together and move back up to AEW and make 3x more money than he would have without that development time. With NXT as the example, Cesaro went from catering to a consistent upper midcarder after going to back to NXT and getting hot working with Sami.

 

10 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

If you already own AEW, I don't really see the value of owning and running ROH in 2022 outside of its tape library.

This I agree with, if they try and keep it equal and not use it as a clear secondary promotion. If he bought it to just own two companies that's pretty short sighted. But I choose to believe there's a clear business purpose to keeping this promotion going. TK is not just buying up a bunch of companies to mark out and be like 'bro you see how many companies I own, it's sweet dude'. He's shown to be a better businessman than that.

 

2 hours ago, A_K said:

AEW Dark, Elevation, Rampage .. and none-brand—affiliated ROH is the developmental arm? Hmm. Let’s see how that goes.

Dark & Elevation happen because yes, they want to get reps to more people. But that's it's secondary purpose. It's primary purpose is to quickly build up the amount of hours in their library. It's a strategy to make a streaming deal more attractive to a media company. Cody & TK have both said this on the record. But I see people miss that way too much.

Rampage exists because Warner wanted more content. It got AEW more money. They produce 3 hours of TV a week and get $43 million a year. Rampage was part of that extension. You telling me you would turn down the network that asked for more content for more money?
 

 

2 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Dark and Dark Elevation are for reps.  An equivalent to 'Shotgun' or 'Superstars' or 'Wrestling Challenge' or whatever they call it now.  ROH would be their 'NXT'.  Sorta.  Kinda.

1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

NXT wasn't a thing while Shotgun and Superstars were on though. 


Superstars & Wrestling Challenge and even Shotgun were done for monetary reasons. They weren't for reps. The WWE guys were working 300 days a year. They didn't need reps. They were, (and is the case of Main Event) still are, bringing in money. Hulu pays WWE for Main Event today just like syndicated networks paid WWE for Superstars. The dollar numbers are way better today. But the purpose was never development, they were done to make money. Superstars was actually the A show until Primetime Wrestling switched to Raw.

NXT (2014 - 2019) was for developing new stars. Letting current stars go put on a new coat of paint. Learning how to do TV. As a business arm, developmental lost money. Not made money. It was an investment. They tried to have that and also make money with it as a brand once AEW started in 2019. But it couldn't be both and it kind of imploded. Which is what I feel will happen to ROH if they try and use it as a money making promotion instead of a loss leader for developing talent.

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32 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Dark & Elevation’s ... primary purpose is to quickly build up the amount of hours in their library. It's a strategy to make a streaming deal more attractive to a media company. Cody & TK have both said this on the record. But I see people miss that way too much.

Do you think people pay WWE streaming subscription fees to watch re-runs of Velocity & Sunday Night Heat?

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6 minutes ago, A_K said:

Do you think people pay WWE streaming subscription fees to watch re-runs of Velocity & Sunday Night Heat?

Nope. You know that's dumb. I know that's dumb. Fans really don't care about the B & C shows.

You know who does care? People who don't know the difference. Like streaming execs. Do you think the Peacock negotiations were based around how many hours of library content WWE had (and obviously the value of the live PPVs). Or was the conversation "Hey guys how many episodes of Raw do you have? Can we subtract money because no one cares about 2003 episodes of Velocity?" No. Streaming & media companies care about the total amount of content they get (and the live shows they can get). They don't get that deep into the weeds on how much of the content is A show vs B show.

Point blank if TK went into a meeting with HBO and they asked how many hours of content are you bringing to the table, which sounds better? 2,000 hours? Or 9,000 hours? HBO Max is not getting into the nuts and bolts of 7,000 hours of it being enhancement matches. They want a bottom line content number. The quality of the content is pretty irrelevant to people who don't understand the content in the first place.

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1 minute ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Nope. You know that's dumb. I know that's dumb. Fans really don't care about the B & C shows.

You know who does care? People who don't know the difference. Like streaming execs. Do you think the Peacock negotiations were based around how many hours of library content WWE had (and obviously the value of the live PPVs). Or was the conversation "Hey guys how many episodes of Raw do you have? Can we subtract money because no one cares about 2003 episodes of Velocity?" No. Streaming & media companies care about the total amount of content they get (and the live shows they can get). They don't get that deep into the weeds on how much of the content is A show vs B show.

Point blank if TK went into a meeting with HBO and they asked how many hours of content are you bringing to the table, which sounds better? 2,000 hours? Or 9,000 hours? HBO Max is not getting into the nuts and bolts of 7,000 hours of it being enhancement matches. They want a bottom line content number. The quality of the content is pretty irrelevant to people who don't understand the content in the first place.

I think going forward streaming companies are going to be much more selective & restrained on what content is purchased and when. Netflix share value is down 50% in 6 months; upstart stream companies like Fubo are down as much as 85%+ in a year. It’s going to be a harder sell in future, and dependent on eyes on the content / subscription levels. But that’s a different conversation for a different time.
 

AEW has a hard core audience that makes up a large chunk of the repeated viewing (need only to look at what high % of the 1 mil or so ppl that are its audience have bought PPvs) and will probably buy whatever’s sold them (at least for the time being) - but building a wider-appealing streaming product from YouTube TV footage won’t be an easy sell to most.

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I agree with you. It won't be an easy sell. And the streaming landscape is ever changing. But the fact remains, that's why Dark & Elevation exist. Yes a secondary reason of getting reps and TV practice. But they want to pump up that library number. The feel the chances of striking a deal are higher with a bigger number than a smaller number.

And this competent is a little moot now anyways. ROH has about 30,000 hours of content that can now be packaged in and make the total amount of the content being acquired wayyyyy more attractive.

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I wasn't referring to a bygone era.  Sorry for the confusion in referencing Shotgun, Challenge and Superstars.  'Main Event' is what I was referring to.  The current day c show.  A show for reps.  

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But Main Event isn't a show for reps. It's a show that makes them money on Hulu. Main roster guys are on it. Not developmental guys. It's just low pressure content they don't care that much about. But they aren't using it to teach anyone anything. Apollo Crews was on the episode they taped last night. Dude was IC Champ at last year's Mania. Don't think that qualifies as a guy needing to learn or develop.

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2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

But Main Event isn't a show for reps. It's a show that makes them money on Hulu. Main roster guys are on it. Not developmental guys. It's just low pressure content they don't care that much about. But they aren't using it to teach anyone anything. Apollo Crews was on the episode they taped last night. Dude was IC Champ at last year's Mania. Don't think that qualifies as a guy needing to learn or develop.

There's a bit of confusion due to my use of the word 'reps'.  I don't mean they need more ring time.  I mean getting guys some TV/streaming exposure.  Reps in the sense of being visible weekly or however often.  In contrast, with AEW's limited schedule, Dark also qualifies for physical reps.  My initial statement was suggesting Dark and Dark Elevation is a C show equivalent not a structured developmental like (an NXT or) what ROH might be.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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