ROH RING OF HONOR in 2022... in AEW

[NoFistsJustFlips]

That sentiment I totally agree with.

[HumanChessgame]

How often was ROH running shows at their highest points? IIRC they'd have one tv taping a month, then one or two "big" shows.

[HarryArchieGus]

3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Do they NEED one? Maybe, maybe not. But is it a luxury that will be a net positive to the product? Yes. It will help. My best demonstration of this is Cena's US Open Challenges. Remember that time in Montreal when Sami Zayn was introduced by Bret Hart and worked Cena? You remember that reaction? That's because Sami got way fucking over in NXT. And the WWE audience in his hometown lost their shit getting to see him. Does that moment still happen without the NXT run for Sami? No. There is absolutely value in creating your own stars on a separate platform to bring over, and the awesome moments that will bring.

Will a Brian Cage be content being in developmental? Well there's going to be frustrations. It's bound to happen. But would a Brian Cage enjoy having no contract at all more? Because he was for sure a goner if ROH wasn't purchased. He keeps a steady check and has a place to work now. The brass ring will always be go down to ROH and find some missing pieces. Put it all together and move back up to AEW and make 3x more money than he would have without that development time. With NXT as the example, Cesaro went from catering to a consistent upper midcarder after going to back to NXT and getting hot working with Sami.

I've never seen Zayn/Bret/MTL debut, but that sounds like a very solid example of how I see this new ROH benefitting AEW.  I like the second Cesaro example as well.

Knowing so little right now, or where it might go, I'm less with the idea that it will always, or has to, remain a secondary promotion.  If by chance it gets hot as a 'brand' I wouldn't be shocked if they ran with it as somewhat of a rival.  Time will tell.  Obviously there's a lot of potential opportunities if cultivated as well as AEW.  There are so many intangibles and unknowns to be able to accurately predict how it will succeed or fail.  That said, I do expect it to start, and likely remain, as a smaller stakes project.  A 'developmental' of sorts.    

All this has me wondering how the new ROH roster would match-up to the initial AEW roster?

2 hours ago, A_K said:

I think going forward streaming companies are going to be much more selective & restrained on what content is purchased and when. Netflix share value is down 50% in 6 months; upstart stream companies like Fubo are down as much as 85%+ in a year. It’s going to be a harder sell in future, and dependent on eyes on the content / subscription levels. But that’s a different conversation for a different time.

It is worth noting that streamers all raised substantially during a time when so many ppl were stuck in their homes.  Losses from things opening up are well worth a consideration to any down numbers.  

Edited April 19, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[A_K]

3 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

It is worth noting that streamers all raised substantially during a time when so many ppl were stuck in their homes.  Losses from things opening up are well worth a consideration to any down numbers.  

Interesting time to have the discussion actually, as Netflix just lost another 20%+ a few hours ago. So that is around $200 billion of their value wiped in 6 months (they're now lower than the worst depths of the covid market crash). Streaming was seen as 'easy money' for so long (just package footage, stick it on a platform online & hey presto you're golden) - that's all going to change as the entire value perception changes. So yeah, tangent point, but probably also worth bearing in mind as it pertains to how AEW (or anyone for that matter) tries to sell historic footage in future. Critical content will be king .. fluff will not fly.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Quote

Khan corrected host Robbie Fox when he mentioned movement between the two companies as "going down" to ROH. Khan preferred the term "laterally," indicating that his new acquisition will not be treated as a developmental group but as an equal of sorts.

And I'm officially off the bandwagon of this being a good idea. What's the point of two separate but equal brands? What's the point of taking market share away from yourself?? I hate the brand split in WWE. Doing one in AEW (essentially what two separate but equal companies equates to) is fucking dumb.

[A_K]

ROH would have been far more fitting an acquisition for WWE than AEW. Let’s see how it goes, but ROH as mentioned previously occupies an existing niche. I 100% appreciate (and agree with) the concept that the tape library is an asset (the $ value - who knows), but as a promotion it will not grow their exposure into untapped markets. WWE, conversely, would have received Indy-legitimacy (if interested in that conceptually after NXT tail-off). AEW has less shine as being “niche leader”, and just becomes part of pack. ROH as worked narrative point in AEW (see Outsiders ‘invasion’ angle; WCW->WWF) would also have made sense. As it’s own corporate structure? Confusing decision. 

[Technico Support]

I'm hoping tonight's announcement is a deal with HBO Max, including AEW and ROH libraries.  I'd love to watch some awesome old wrestling on an interface that's not trash (looking at you Highspots and IWTV).

Edited April 20, 2022 by Technico Support

[Kang]

Reportedly Tony Khan considers the new ROH on the same level as AEW, so not moving down but lateral move. Part of me thinks Rampage could be the new ROH show, if no slot and/or channel under the WBD label picks up ROH.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Blue Dragon

[HarryArchieGus]

2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

And I'm officially off the bandwagon of this being a good idea. What's the point of two separate but equal brands? What's the point of taking market share away from yourself?? I hate the brand split in WWE. Doing one in AEW (essentially what two separate but equal companies equates to) is fucking dumb.

Until I see otherwise, I have no reason to believe they'll be following any of the WWE's booking/creative brand-split strategies.  I think they've more than proven they are not prone to following suit with much of anything WWE does.  TK seemed to be using the word 'laterally' in more of a freindly corporate or neutral way - something like 'I don't want to say one is bigger or better than the other'.  Contrast that with how he later shot down the idea of guys like Bryan and/or Punk working ROH - other than in some special circumstance.  He also added that a Danielson-Punk match would make more sense in AEW, not ROH.  Coupling these notes together tells us a little about the ROH plans.  And I maintain with the assumption that this whole thing starts as a lower stakes promotion with a few established veteran names (Joe, Lethal, Castle, Gresham), a crossover or two (FTR), younger AEW talent (Lee Moriarty), and projects (Tully's boys, Josh Woods, etc.).  I also maintain, especially now, that this may start as their 'NXT' of sorts, but if it catches fire they will not be placing a ceiling on it.  
 
Further, I know it was only a small pod interview, and I'm well aware of the Warner Exec block talk, I also know they're currently doing some shots with Impact, but I got the sense from Tony's comments that the Briscoes might not be done with ROH.  Not to say he was suggesting anything, but the comments and the Briscoes need for revenge for the Bucks attack has me hoping/wishing. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[NoFistsJustFlips]

But one is bigger and better than the other, so I don't see the need for corporate speak. Especially since he owns both. He isn't hurting anyone's feelings by being honest. The top ROH star (currently) is Gresham. Is the top AEW star (take your pick, Punk / Danielson / Jericho / Mox) bigger and better (in terms of star power)? Yes. And it's not close. I just don't see the need to correct that talking point at all if his plan was to keep it as the secondary developmental brand. So he clearly has plans to at least try and make a go of building ROH into an equal.

It doesn't matter if AEW has better booking and won't do WWE-like things with a brand split, I just don't like brand splits. There's no way to do one that will be interesting to me. It wouldn't have been a good in WCW with the original nWo plan, it wasn't good when WWE had WCW as a separate brand in the Invasion, and it's not good with the Raw / Smackdown brand split. Making your own fake "competition" just isn't compelling to me. Wrestling is a simulated sporting event. Does the NFL or NBA have a second league that is separate but equal? No. They have minor leagues that build up stars of tomorrow, and that is more realistic and effective in my opinion. Both in terms of realism, and also in terms of storytelling.

[HarryArchieGus]

43 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

But one is bigger and better than the other, so I don't see the need for corporate speak. Especially since he owns both. He isn't hurting anyone's feelings by being honest. The top ROH star (currently) is Gresham. Is the top AEW star (take your pick, Punk / Danielson / Jericho / Mox) bigger and better (in terms of star power)? Yes. And it's not close. I just don't see the need to correct that talking point at all if his plan was to keep it as the secondary developmental brand. So he clearly has plans to at least try and make a go of building ROH into an equal.

I think there's plenty of reasons to speculate as to why he would like the messaging to be 'level playing field' or whatever. And yeah, I think he plans to grow ROH into something special.  Seems like an exciting proposition to me.  I'd say Samoa Joe is the biggest current ROH star.  Seeing as they've thus far only had a transitional 'supercard' it's hard to say what exactly the roster will look like.  I suspect even the first TV will have new roster members.  I'm curious for example if this is where Claudio Castignoli or DDT's Konosuke Takeshita land.   

Quote

It doesn't matter if AEW has better booking and won't do WWE-like things with a brand split, I just don't like brand splits. There's no way to do one that will be interesting to me. It wouldn't have been a good in WCW with the original nWo plan, it wasn't good when WWE had WCW as a separate brand in the Invasion, and it's not good with the Raw / Smackdown brand split. Making your own fake "competition" just isn't compelling to me. Wrestling is a simulated sporting event. Does the NFL or NBA have a second league that is separate but equal? No. They have minor leagues that build up stars of tomorrow, and that is more realistic and effective in my opinion. Both in terms of realism, and also in terms of storytelling.

I'd suggest it does matter that AEW booking/creative won't do WWE things.  I don't see how WWE's choice to use WCW as an invading brand compares to any of this?  And I agree that it was awful.  I would have much preferred they went forth, like AEW with ROH, and had WCW as a seprate promotion.  I shouldn't speak much to WWE's brand split post '05, but I can agree that it didn't work for my tastes prior to then.  I also loathed their ECW relaunch.  But again, these are all things WWE did, and I have little to no worry about Khan repeating any of those mistakes.  I also don't find the same intangibles at play between any of the major sports leagues and wrestling.  First, you already have two 'major' wrestling leagues.  Second, wrestling is more about variety than 'who's the best'.  It's rare that 'who's the best' really factors for me.  I guess sorta in a quasi way something like Hangman-Danielson or the Briscoes-FTR was kinda that, but not really.  I love, at least the potential, of how a new league provides so many new opportunities (and legitimate contracts) for new ppl.  Again, variety is a huge part of my interest.  I wanna see new guys get featured who aren't competing to take TV time from the likes of Punk or Moxley or Hangman or any number of AEW stars.    

[JLowe]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

But one is bigger and better than the other, so I don't see the need for corporate speak. Especially since he owns both. He isn't hurting anyone's feelings by being honest. 

If you're trying to sell the programming rights to a TV station/streaming service, you wouldn't talk about how it's second-tier/developmental.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

30 minutes ago, JLowe said:

If you're trying to sell the programming rights to a TV station/streaming service, you wouldn't talk about how it's second-tier/developmental.

This is the correct answer. Good call, I hadn't consider that.

But then you get into a whole new can of worms if you sell Warner Media a show based on an equal company and then use it as a less than / developmental.

 

32 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I'd suggest it does matter that AEW booking/creative won't do WWE things...

But again, these are all things WWE did, and I have little to no worry about Khan repeating any of those mistakes...

Listen, I mean no offense by this. I like your posts and you seem knowledgeable. But you treat TK like he is infallible. If TK decrees it, you're on board touting the virtues of it. Your perspective is far from impartial or a basis for a fair debate.

And again, to me, it doesn't matter who books a brand split. Trying to create your own fake competition is not a story or plot point I will ever be on board with. Especially when there is a real competition happening off screen. It's transparent and insults the audience's intelligence. No one, especially the smarter AEW fan base, will believe there's a real fight between ROH & AEW for brand supremacy. So I ask, rhetorically, what's the point in running a story no one buys into? Or putting all these resources into trying to make two amazing and entertaining brands that serve the same purpose?

Wouldn't putting all of your resources into making your one company be the most fun / entertaining / well liked wrestling promotion you can? I digress....

[HarryArchieGus]

2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Listen, I mean no offense by this. I like your posts and you seem knowledgeable. But you treat TK like he is infallible. If TK decrees it, you're on board touting the virtues of it. Your perspective is far from impartial or a basis for a fair debate.

C'mon, the Tony Khan blind follower argument is weak, and veers from the subject for what reason?

Yeah, I'm optimistic.  And yeah, I'm a big fan of this two and half year run of AEW.  I'm not going to pretend that it hasn't been Tony Khan leading the production.  I didn't watch wrestling for 15 years, and this company's consistent TV product has me interested again.  I definitely give him the benefit of the doubt, but for good reason - his product is very good to excellent.  Almost every week for something like 129 weeks.  Yeah, I think that's impressive.  All that said, I'll also share some decisions and things I don't agree with or don't like: I'm not a fan of putting feuding ppl in gimmick matches in their first match or as early as he has.  I hate the Casino Battle Royal concept.  I think the Face of the Revolution ladder matches are amongst the worst things in the company.  I would say I'm 50/50 on any gimmick matches they've done.  I don't like that he let Jim Ross be such a negative influence for so long.  I don't like his choices of commentary much at all.  I don't like at least half of his referee hires, and the way he allows them to look like idiots (sooo often).  I don't like that he never or rarely has rematches and then decides Adam Cole and Page need another match, or that Shida-Deeb is the one worthy feud to go best of 7 or whatever they're doing.  I don't think they've done a particularly good job of setting up their Women's Division - in particular not signing Deonna Purrazzo, Chelsea Green and Kilynn King.  I don't think he has a very keen eye for gear presentation (a lot of guys/gals have awful cheap looking attire).  I think his AEW Dark/Elevation bookings are inconsistent to weak (not that I expect big matches).  I think it's a waste not to have promos on those shows.  I hate his use of 'lights out', and from the beginning (not just the Singh debut).  I absolutely hate his insistence on 4 hour plus PPVs with barely any breathing room between the matches (3-3 1/2 is my ceiling).  I'm sure there are many more things I'm missing.  Oh yeah, I loathe his promotional interviews on AEW unrestricted, and most any time he's overtly selling his product.    

Quote

And again, to me, it doesn't matter who books a brand split. Trying to create your own fake competition is not a story or plot point I will ever be on board with. Especially when there is a real competition happening off screen. It's transparent and insults the audience's intelligence. No one, especially the smarter AEW fan base, will believe there's a real fight between ROH & AEW for brand supremacy. So I ask, rhetorically, what's the point in running a story no one buys into? Or putting all these resources into trying to make two amazing and entertaining brands that serve the same purpose?

Wouldn't putting all of your resources into making your one company be the most fun / entertaining / well liked wrestling promotion you can? I digress....

I don't see this separately promoted ROH being some sort of rival to AEW.  I don't see 'brand supremacy' as even remotely a factor.  At least not for a long time.  If it ever turns into a battle of the brands, yeah, they'll need some way of making it convincing.  I don't see what the creative would be that does make it convincing, but I also don't see it as any sort of concern or question mark anyway.  What is it that has you convinced that this 'brand supremacy' storyline is actually happening? 

I'm absolutely an optimist, and for the reasons I've already outlined.  I'm also well aware that I could be wrong.  I'll share with you that I thought the Heyman led ECW relaunch would be the thing that would save my interest in pro wrestling.  Boy was I wrong, I did not forsee Vince McMahon's rotten involvement.  At least not so quickly.  

Edited April 20, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[NoFistsJustFlips]

I'm not as bullish on a brand supremacy storyline perse, just down on the separate but equal aspects of maintaining two brands. No matter how great of a booker or businessman he is, it's a mistake. You can't put your full attention into making your company as good as it can be at all times by splitting your attention between two promotions and trying to build them up at the same time. World renowned directors don't direct two blockbuster movies at the same time. Bands don't split time between making two separate albums at once expecting both to be big hits. It's just not a recipe for anyone's best work.

I very much like AEW. I would prefer if TK spent all of his time and effort making that as good as possible. If he somehow threads the needle and we have two distinct mega companies that have a once a year Super Bowl and it's a critical success I will be the first to say my bad I was wrong. But the likelihood of that is near zero. The much more likely scenario is the very high quality of AEW starts to wan a bit when he has to devote time and effort to quality control on ROH too. And I personally just don't see the upside to having two companies vs one (unless one is used as a feeder system).

What doors does having two companies open that having one very good one won't open? I just don't get it. I'll just have to wait and see if there's some kind of aha moment as things progress where a purpose becomes more clear to me I guess.

[twiztor]

19 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Does the NFL or NBA have a second league that is separate but equal?

yes.

the NFL is comprised of two "separate but equal" divisions, the NFC and the AFC. the NBA has the Eastern and Western Conferences. there is no reason all of the teams could not be under the same umbrella. 

Your analogy doesn't work anyway, since we're talking actual sports and legitimate competition vs. scripted pro wrestling, but on this point you're incorrect.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

3 hours ago, twiztor said:

yes.

the NFL is comprised of two "separate but equal" divisions, the NFC and the AFC. the NBA has the Eastern and Western Conferences. there is no reason all of the teams could not be under the same umbrella. 

Your analogy doesn't work anyway, since we're talking actual sports and legitimate competition vs. scripted pro wrestling, but on this point you're incorrect.

Ah yes because there is an AFC Super Bowl and an NFC Super Bowl and the NFC teams don't ever play the AFC teams. Ooops lol. Those are just distinctions among one big company. The company is the NFL. And they play each other all the time, so the conferences are not separate entities. Running a separate AFC company and a separate NFC company that don't cross over is the analogy here. And that's not how the NFL works at all.

Sure wrestling is scripted. But it's scripted to emulate a sport. Modern pro wrestling is most closely scripted to be similar to boxing with divisions, titles, and fights. Essentially you are supposed to win matches and earn titles. You take that element out and wrestling is more like Saturday Night Live meets gymnastics. The whole pretense and purpose of wrestling is to beat the other guy and become the best. Which is what every major sport's pretense is.

[twiztor]

5 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Ah yes because there is an AFC Super Bowl and an NFC Super Bowl and the NFC teams don't ever play the AFC teams. Ooops lol. Those are just distinctions among one big company. The company is the NFL. And they play each other all the time, so the conferences are not separate entities. Running a separate AFC company and a separate NFC company that don't cross over is the analogy here.

i think we're just coming at it from different angles. YMMV on how well any of these pull off what they're trying to accomplish, but i see a clear delineation:

NFL = WWE = Tony Khan

NFC/AFC = Raw/Smackdown = AEW/ROH

[DEAN]

TK is following the DDT/Pro Wrestling NOAH model but with more overlap.  The question is what will he buy to make the Tokyo Joshi Pro and Ganbare Pro section?

[TheVileOne]

8 hours ago, twiztor said:

i think we're just coming at it from different angles. YMMV on how well any of these pull off what they're trying to accomplish, but i see a clear delineation:

NFL = WWE = Tony Khan

NFC/AFC = Raw/Smackdown = AEW/ROH

I'm not on board with Brand Split 2.0 with ROH. 

The brand split fails in WWE. The reason it fails? My hypothesis: The WWE brand split erodes because WWE genuinely has no true incentive to compete with itself. When push comes to shove, they will have wrestlers move freely between shows, or unify titles when they get tired of having two world champions. Or when one of the networks is getting anxious and wants Brock or Roman on their own show. There are no brand only premium live events anymore.

NXT only worked as a separate brand because they were only on streaming TV without a real TV deal and they were basically run like a super-indy promotion, backed by WWE.

Now is AEW hoping to make ROH into their NXT? Maybe that could work, but I think it's too early for AEW to have its own NXT. I could kind of get on board with that more than making ROH vs. AEW as Raw vs. SmackDown 2.0. Even if AEW thinks they can do this the right away. 

I'm not going to say ROH is a dead brand, but the ship kind of sailed on ROH. If the goal here is to make ROH a separate but equal brand on par with AEW, IMHO that's not what AEW should be focused on right now.

And at the end of the day, these aren't legitimate sports franchises. These aren't real sports teams. So you can't run pro wrestling brands the same as a sports team.

Edited April 22, 2022 by TheVileOne

[HarryArchieGus]

Re: The WWE 'Brand Split' precedent 

AEW has for over 2 and a 1/2 years shown both an ability to learn from previous industry mistakes and To do 'not' what WWE does.  When they air a dueling mic segment or something that reminds ppl of WWE, it is loudly recognized.  And it isn't all that common - a reason why you're unlikely to hear the term 'WWE Lite' attached to AEW with any significant argument.  ROH being produced as a separate entity from AEW is highly unlikely to share the same pitfalls of the WWE Brand Split or any WWE creative in general.  Whether or not Tony Khan and his team are able to grow the letters ROH into a success will be determined in time.  There are a lot of unanswered and important questions, but determining failure due to a WWE creative model or any other non-AEW exemplar is an empty argument.  If like me you are a fan of AEW and their 2 and a 1/2 year run then a new ROH (not the old ROH) is worth a little patience.  Maybe more of us should explore the NOAH/DDT example for a further precedent to consider.  

Any ROH updates this week in the Observer? @RIPPA(thanks for all the info shares)

Edited April 22, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[Kang]

CyberFight has all their brands under CyberFight. Tony has his brands and promotions separate.

Alt reality wise,  It would be like Ted Turner owning ECW but putting all his WCW contracted guys in his ECW. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Blue Dragon

[HarryArchieGus]

6 minutes ago, Blue Dragon said:

CyberFight has all their brands under CyberFight. Tony has his brands and promotions separate.

Alt reality wise,  It would be like Ted Turner owning ECW but putting all his WCW contracted guys in his ECW. 

Fair enough, it's not the Cyberfight model either. 

[zendragon]

22 hours ago, DEAN said:

TK is following the DDT/Pro Wrestling NOAH model but with more overlap.  The question is what will he buy to make the Tokyo Joshi Pro and Ganbare Pro section?

They have been using Thunder Rosa's Mission Pro Wrestling as a feeder system for sometime now

[Jenalysis]

I'd make ROH a speciality brand.  Two things

 

more pure rules matches, and more women.