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Elsalvajeloco

2020 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

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Posted (edited)

Dana White interview notes from wrestlingobserver.com:

UFC president Dana White did a 25-minute interview with ESPN's Brett Okamoto Thursday where he addressed the recent Jon Jones-Francis Ngannou fight rumors, Mike Tyson's fighting future, and some title fights they are looking to make.

On the prospects of Jones-Ngannou at heavyweight, White said that Jones "couldn't be asking for a more absurd amount of money at a worse time" and questioned why he was angling for a fight when he's never wanted to go up a weight class. He said a rematch with Dominic Reyes makes more sense while Jan Blachowicz also remains an option. White put over Jones as the greatest of all time with "no debate".

On Twitter, Jones retorted that he didn't ask for a pay increase and that they never made a number off. "Immediately the conversation was that I already made enough," he tweeted, later adding he's not mad at White or the UFC but is disappointed this went that route.

Other notes from the interview:

  • White said he got Mike Tyson a TV show to keep him away from returning to boxing but that he's a grown man and if he wants to fight again, he will find a way to be there even if no fans are allowed. He said Tyson had something lined up and that it's something big.
  • White will stay at Fight Island for a month when it gets up and running with the assumption they will run three or four shows there. The infrastructure being built is for training, food service, and for sleeping arrangements. He was not asked if the facility was in Yas Island in Abu Dhabi.
  • After their next two shows in Las Vegas, White said UFC will be back on track with their 2020 schedule, running Saturdays unless ESPN wanted more shows.
  • He confirmed that The Ultimate Fighter will return to UFC Fight Pass this year with some changes but the same style of show with coaches, etc. 
  • He confirmed that the Tuesday Night Contender Series will return this year and said he is working on how to combat the issue of regional MMA being on hold for the time being.
  • He put over Fightlore on Fight Pass as a show people need to see.
  • While not giving any timeframes, he said flyweight champion Valentina Shevchenko vs. Joanne Calderwood, heavyweight champion Stipe Miocic vs. Daniel Cormier III, middleweight champion Israel Adesanya vs. Paulo Costa, and Petr Yan vs. Jose Aldo for the vacant bantamweight title are all being worked on. Robert Whittaker vs. Darren Till is also a fight they want to make.
  • As far as welterweight, he said there's a lot of drama and "social media b.s." going on and that things should shake out soon.

---

Hope but don't expect Ngannou/Jones to happen. Jones has avoided going up to Heavyweight for so long and Ngannou is the heaviest hitter in the division. So then, it has to be Jones vs. Reyes II. Reyes won that first fight, man.

Dana White can fuck right off saying Jon Jones is the greatest of all time with "no debate". You piss hot for drugs, that disqualifies you from Greatest of All Time consideration. GSP's the GOAT.

Edited by The Natural
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23 minutes ago, The Natural said:

Dana White interview notes from wrestlingobserver.com:

UFC president Dana White did a 25-minute interview with ESPN's Brett Okamoto Thursday where he addressed the recent Jon Jones-Francis Ngannou fight rumors, Mike Tyson's fighting future, and some title fights they are looking to make.

On the prospects of Jones-Ngannou at heavyweight, White said that Jones "couldn't be asking for a more absurd amount of money at a worse time" and questioned why he was angling for a fight when he's never wanted to go up a weight class. He said a rematch with Dominic Reyes makes more sense while Jan Blachowicz also remains an option. White put over Jones as the greatest of all time with "no debate".

 

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Most importantly, when is Thiago Santos returning?! He said back in February he was eyeing a July return. Give that dude Blachowicz again and winner faces winner of Jones/Reyes II. 

Till/Whittaker seems to be the main event of the first UFSea show that'll happen in July by the sounds of it. 

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Been waiting for UFC to put this on YouTube. Robbie Lawler vs. Carlos Condit. An all time classic fight. There's only two other MMA fights I rate above this (#2: Edgar/Maynard II and #1: Griffin/Bonnar I). The fifth round was incredible, I was ducking and weaving. I hardly ever do that. Condit was never the same after this fight, he lost by split decision when he won the fight. Still pissed Dana White didn't book an immediate rematch between the two. Such a lost opportunity. Watch this fight!

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9 hours ago, The Natural said:

Been waiting for UFC to put this on YouTube. Robbie Lawler vs. Carlos Condit. An all time classic fight. There's only two other MMA fights I rate above this (#2: Edgar/Maynard II and #1: Griffin/Bonnar I). The fifth round was incredible, I was ducking and weaving. I hardly ever do that. Condit was never the same after this fight, he lost by split decision when he won the fight. Still pissed Dana White didn't book an immediate rematch between the two. Such a lost opportunity. Watch this fight!

i rank this as my #1 fight of all time

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In news that I really enjoy my least favorite UFC Champion is relinquishing a belt that he hasn’t truly earned in ages:

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2020/05/jon-jones-vacate-relinquish-ufc-title-dana-white-response-contract-money

So to JJ I say have fun being a total and complete moron, and I for one won’t miss seeing you. And good luck if you think UFC will ever be desperate enough to pay you $15 million to fight Izzy or Francis. Especially since Costa might (in my opinion will) wipe the Octagon mat with Izzy before 2021.

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Posted (edited)

Considering he's the 2nd biggest draw in the UFC, compared to what guys like Canelo are getting now, $15 million is a lowball deal or just on the low end of what he probably should be getting. If Jon is doing what 500k-700k PPV equivalent buys with a Thiago Santos or Dom Reyes, what the fuck does anyone think he's going to do with Ngannou? This goes especially if Francis wins the HW title down the line. Either way, that's a fight that's going to do a million equivalent buys, he deserves to make more than what he has been getting. After this ESPN deal, he deserves that to make that. While I was always more leaning towards being pro-UFC when it comes to what lower tier or mid tier fighters should make, I have always, always said the top guys need to make as much as possible because they're the ones who have always subsidized the other guys. Just because the UFC gets the same money now whether the PPV does 50 buys or 5 million buys doesn't really change that for me.

Even though there were some things I kinda disagree with Meltzer on last night's WOR episode, I do agree that the live gate thing does play an issue. I don't think they're going to waste a McGregor fight or Jones-Ngannou and lose out on a big gate running when they cannot have fans in the arena. The same goes for Eddie Hearn or Golden Boy doing a show with Anthony Joshua or Canelo card respectively. Even if ain't cost prohibitive to do it, in the case of UFC, they're going to BELIEVE that it might be cost prohibitive. That's how greed works. So this is just negotiations being made public. In the end, it's going to end up with Jon getting more money. Why? Cause they can afford to pay him more money.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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Jon Jones was in handcuffs three weeks ago.

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6 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Jon Jones was in handcuffs three weeks ago.

So?

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9 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Considering he's the 2nd biggest draw in the UFC, compared to what guys like Canelo are getting now, $15 million is a lowball deal or just on the low end of what he probably should be getting. 

I really like your post overall. But is Canelo a safe yardstick for these comparisons? I get that fighters are worth what companies are willing to pay. But Canelo money seems to me to be DAZN making a statement rather than a sustainable business model. UFC aren't a startup trying to woo the biggest stars. They're the main player in the game and have the guy under contract. Way different market position and bargaining position.

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39 minutes ago, throughsilver said:

I really like your post overall. But is Canelo a safe yardstick for these comparisons? I get that fighters are worth what companies are willing to pay. But Canelo money seems to me to be DAZN making a statement rather than a sustainable business model. UFC aren't a startup trying to woo the biggest stars. They're the main player in the game and have the guy under contract. Way different market position and bargaining position.

The thing here though it's not like a situation in the past like Demetrious Johnson versus whoever was bantamweight champion at the time. For a supposed superfight, is that going to break 250k buys? The answer was likely no whether it was DJ vs. Dillashaw or DJ vs. Cody Garbrandt or DJ vs. Cruz II. Here you have what is easily one of the biggest fights of the year bar none, and you have two guys assuming risk. Even Ngannou himself was adamant saying he wasn't going to fight Jon Jones for the same money he has been money. I believe his words were "fuck no" to Ariel Helwani. Why? Cause he's not stupid. As much shit as I've given DAZN, the problem isn't so much Canelo being overpaid as much as it's twofold being that everyone else is overvalued and unwilling to take tough fights that could bring in subscribers. Even against creampuffs or a not so big name like a Daniel Jacobs, Canelo still brings them in. Maybe there is significant churn afterwards cause he only fights on the two big Mexican holidays four months apart and occasionally a third time in a calendar year. However, that doesn't change the fact he's bringing in business. For everyone else not named Canelo or Anthony Joshua (I'm leaving out the Youtubers)? You can't even say that. So even if DAZN is overpaying him, he's still worth it. 

Just like Canelo, Jon brings business to ESPN+. While it may have more legitimate backing, the crown jewel is by far UFC. Without Jon Jones, how are you going to keep subscribers on? Conor McGregor who only fights once every blue moon and may retire or take a sabbatical on a whim? A Khabib fight with Justin Gaethje? DC vs. Stipe part twelve that you just can't seem to put together w/ one guy who is leaving the sport? Even though he's been in trouble a lot, Jon Jones has had fourteen fights since becoming UFC champion in 2011. I'm going to hazard a guess and say he was probably criminally underpaid for all, if not, most of those fights. So if you fuck him over on the front end, you don't expect him to want to get paid on the back end? Cause even the most fervent, staunch anti-union MMA fan will look at that and say that's probably going cause a dilemma. It would be one thing to ask to fight Jan Blachowicz for big money. However, he isn't. You've avoided paying this man for almost a decade. Now you don't want to pay him for taking the most dangerous fight of his career. At some point, the chicken would come home to roost. Moreover, who is assuming the risk? It ain't the UFC. You're right they're not DAZN. They can pay Jon Jones MORE than Canelo and still have a ton of money left over. Why? Cause they're underpaying everyone else ON TOP OF making a ton of money. So if you're UFC and you had to do one or the other, the smartest option would be to pay for this fight and continue to underpay everyone else. If you think you can do both, you're going to be sadly mistaken. Hell, it may not be this fight...it may be for another fight in the future. We'll see, but the penny pinching routine will get old eventually. Yes, you can try to spin it and say Jon was asking for outrageous money so people can start pocket-watching Jon Jones. However, that's more on him being Jon Jones than people given a shit about what the UFC can actually afford. The fact remains, people still watch his fights. You think UFC wanted to go back to the Nate Diaz well? No, but that well has a lot of water in or it did at the time. Don't get it twisted. There are no hands being overplayed. As long as the fighter has bargaining chips, we got a competitive, evenly contested game here.

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5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

So?

So he’s constantly made the company look bad. How many times has he been arrested while being “champion”? You can’t tell me if that was Amanda Nunes or Stipe Miocic getting arrested that often, causing pr nightmares for the company, and constantly messing up their public image that UFC wouldn’t have stripped them of the belt, and made sure they don’t fight for it again for a good long time. 

But in Jon’s case what do they do? Strip him, let him fight fricken OSP for an interim belt (a joke fight in which he didn’t dominate), book a rematch at UFC 200 with DC that would’ve drew a huge buy rate then the week of strip him again (for being a moron, and a drug cheat again), bring him back and book him for yet another title fight. Let him beat DC, Gus, Anthony Smith (which should have been a DQ loss), Thiago Santos (iffy at best decision), and Dominick Reyes (complete and utter robbery). 

Then the guy that’s getting paid at minimum $5 million has the stupidity to go out, and get arrested for driving under the influence, and shooting off a gun during a pandemic with a curfew in place. But we’re supposed to feel sorry for him? And where are these 700K buy figures coming from? The only fights I’ve seen him credited with doing that many buys for are the two DC fights, and the two with Gus not his most recent fights. 

The main reason I’m calling BS on the buy rate you’re quoting for the Reyes fight is even Meltzer said that UFC 249 was the second highest bought PPV of the year so far. Which given it did just over 500K means for your claim to be accurate that a) Jones sold way more than he actually did, and b) he somehow out sold Connor which we all know won’t ever happen. 

And before you get it twisted I’m not knocking his skills as a fighter. I personally think he’s wasted a great deal of talent, and that he needs to show he can be more reliable outside of the Octagon before demanding anything from a company that’s treated him well (arguably the only fighter they’ve treated better that’s still active is Connor, and they put up with his shit because unlike Jon he draws huge money worldwide).

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MavsFan77 said:

So he’s constantly made the company look bad. How many times has he been arrested while being “champion”? You can’t tell me if that was Amanda Nunes or Stipe Miocic getting arrested that often, causing pr nightmares for the company, and constantly messing up their public image that UFC wouldn’t have stripped them of the belt, and made sure they don’t fight for it again for a good long time. 

I can cause they wouldn't. Who has the UFC severely punished at all? Babalu? Des Green, who quietly got released? They're not punishing anyone notable. 

1 hour ago, MavsFan77 said:

But in Jon’s case what do they do? Strip him, let him fight fricken OSP for an interim belt (a joke fight in which he didn’t dominate)

Dude, he body slammed him through the mat and broke his arm. That's clear domination. How many rounds did OSP win?

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Then the guy that’s getting paid at minimum $5 million has the stupidity to go out, and get arrested for driving under the influence, and shooting off a gun during a pandemic with a curfew in place. 

Is he in jail now? Cause he's not. Plenty of people in sports went to jail and have been paid millions of dollars. Floyd Mayweather went to prison PRISON. Still got paid gobs of money when he got out. Ditto for Mike Tyson. 

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 But we’re supposed to feel sorry for him?

At no point did I say feel sorry for him.

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The only fights I’ve seen him credited with doing that many buys for are the two DC fights, and the two with Gus not his most recent fights. 

1.They're on a new service that they've limited their audience going to by making it difficult (not my words, a bunch of other people) to order shows. That's their fault they're not doing the business they use to do, not Jon Jones.

2. They're not going to reveal the numbers unless they arbitrarily decide to do so. 

3. That's still a better track record than everyone not named Conor McGregor. Everyone besides maybe Khabib (because the Iaquinta fight overperformed) either doesn't draw at all or has a high number like Amanda Nunes and puny numbers for other fights. Typically, if you someone has an unusually high number that skews the average, you have to throw that number out if you're really trying to get a real average.

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The main reason I’m calling BS on the buy rate you’re quoting for the Reyes fight is even Meltzer said that UFC 249 was the second highest bought PPV of the year so far. Which given it did just over 500K means for your claim to be accurate that a) Jones sold way more than he actually did, and b) he somehow out sold Connor which we all know won’t ever happen. 

Where I did I give the actual buyrate for the Reyes fight? Cause I didn't. What I did is give you the number if they were under the old PPV system where you could buy it off your television. And if you want to bring Meltzer into it, Dave himself said on WOR several times that's what Jon's fights would have done under the old PPV model. Hence, the word EQUIVALENT. You notice when Billboard releases news about the top selling albums every week, they use that word cause people don't purchase music in the same way they use to.

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And before you get it twisted I’m not knocking his skills as a fighter. 

You can't say that after you just did. You ridiculously claimed he didn't dominate OSP. Go back and give me a round OSP won. I dare you. If Jon doesn't murderdeathkill people up to people's standards, he didn't have a great fight.

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that he needs to show he can be more reliable outside of the Octagon before demanding anything from a company that’s treated him well 

Need I remind you about the UFC 151 debacle? Cause if this was the NBA or NFL, he (Jon) would be in a different company as soon as his deal at the time expired. Shitty owners/execs chase players (and fighters) away. Also, if we're being serious, Dana White needs to be more reliable and not be a douchebag that makes the company look bad to demand anything from guy who has fought for him for twelve years. See it works both ways, comrade. 

 

 

 

Edited by Elsalvajeloco

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Did you listen to the Lebatard interview with Dana on Friday?  He of course danced around fighter pay and told them to ask Jon Jones himself what he made and that Jones was a millionaire.  He also said Cejudo didn't retire because of money because he won't be doing anything else after retirement so he has plenty of money.  He said Cejudo retired because he was tired of cutting weight.  He also called Dan ignorant because he suggested fighters aren't paid enough.

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8 minutes ago, AA484 said:

Did you listen to the Lebatard interview with Dana on Friday?  He of course danced around fighter pay and told them to ask Jon Jones himself what he made and that Jones was a millionaire.  He also said Cejudo didn't retire because of money because he won't be doing anything else after retirement so he has plenty of money.  He said Cejudo retired because he was tired of cutting weight.  He also called Dan ignorant because he suggested fighters aren't paid enough.

I'm not the biggest LeBatard fan, but having Dana on is like being able to rob a huge bank with just your index and middle finger making the gun motion in your hoodie pocket. That's too easy.

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I can cause they wouldn't. Who has the UFC severely punished at all? Babalu? Des Green, who quietly got released? They're not punishing anyone notable. 

Dude, he body slammed him through the mat and broke his arm. That's clear domination. How many rounds did OSP win?

Is he in jail now? Cause he's not. Plenty of people in sports went to jail and have been paid millions of dollars. Floyd Mayweather went to prison PRISON. Still got paid gobs of money when he got out. Ditto for Mike Tyson. 

At no point did I say feel sorry for him.

1.They're on a new service that they've limited their audience going to by making it difficult (not my words, a bunch of other people) to order shows. That's their fault they're not doing the business they use to do, not Jon Jones.

2. They're not going to reveal the numbers unless they arbitrarily decide to do so. 

3. That's still a better track record than everyone not named Conor McGregor. Everyone besides maybe Khabib (because the Iaquinta fight overperformed) either doesn't draw at all or has a high number like Amanda Nunes and puny numbers for other fights. Typically, if you someone has an unusually high number that skews the average, you have to throw that number out if you're really trying to get a real average.

Where I did I give the actual buyrate for the Reyes fight? Cause I didn't. What I did is give you the number if they were under the old PPV system where you could buy it off your television. And if you want to bring Meltzer into it, Dave himself said on WOR several times that's what Jon's fights would have done under the old PPV model. Hence, the word EQUIVALENT. You notice when Billboard releases news about the top selling albums every week, they use that word cause people don't purchase music in the same way they use to.

You can't say that after you just did. You ridiculously claimed he didn't dominate OSP. Go back and give me a round OSP won. I dare you. If Jon doesn't murderdeathkill people up to people's standards, he didn't have a great fight.

Need I remind you about the UFC 151 debacle? Cause if this was the NBA or NFL, he (Jon) would be in a different company as soon as his deal at the time expired. Shitty owners/execs chase players (and fighters) away. Also, if we're being serious, Dana White needs to be more reliable and not be a douchebag that makes the company look bad to demand anything from guy who has fought for him for twelve years. See it works both ways, comrade. 

 

 

 

I didn’t say OSP won any rounds. I said Jon didn’t dominate/finish him the way someone of his skill level should have. I guarantee DC could have finished him for sure. And here’s a direct quote from Dana about that performance too: "I'm a firm believer in ring rust," White said on the Fox Sports 1 post-fight show. "Jon Jones looked rusty tonight and it was a really good thing for him that it was OSP tonight, the sixth-ranked guy, and not Cormier, because he was able to get some rounds under his belt, get in there and feel himself out. Now he knows what he has to do when he gets back in the gym."

Your Mayweather argument carries no weight with me for one simple reason. Floyd while being a piece of trash as a man is someone that’s still beloved by a large amount of the population, and he’s a boxer who retired undefeated, and drew more money than anyone in any major professional sport that’s not named Michael Jordan. Talk to me when Jon is half as loved as Floyd, or he can draw against bum level fighters the way Floyd did (including McGreggor).

Good for Jon that he can draw compared to the current crop of fighters. As you pointed out nobody outside of Connor and maybe Khabib is a draw. Look at Jon’s numbers compared to GSP or Brock. They don’t stack up well, and he’s not a great draw. Out of curiosity how many buys would you say a fight with Izzy at 205, or a HW fight with Francis would draw? 

You’re right about the standard Jon is held to, but that’s true of every great. How many people were critical of Anderson Silva if he didn’t beat an opponent in 10 minutes or less? Or GSP grinding out decisions? So yeah I do expect Jon to be able to finish a bum like OSP, or at least clearly win a decision (and not be gifted one) against Reyes or Santos. 

If shitty owners run people away then why didn’t he leave for Bellator after that? Bellator has been willing to throw money around like crazy. And it’s not like he was some innocent victim with UFC 151. I still think he should have taken the fight (especially the extra $$$ that would have come with it), and smashed Chael as he did later on anyhow. Plus it would have saved his arm from getting torn up by Vitor. 

It works both ways if you’ve been good for the company that employs you, and you don’t constantly make them look bad. Not hey I’ve been arrested constantly, I totaled a car that the company bought for me in my own hometown, and I’ve made an ass out of myself on Twitter multiple times. How many jobs in the real world would keep a guy like that around for 12 years? Oh yeah, and he got released from a Nike contract for being a drug cheat too. But yeah Jon is totally upstanding, and worthy of admiration.

Now I could and happily would go off on a rant about Dana White, but in this instance I don’t see what good that would do as we’re discussing Jon, and not him.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MavsFan77 said:

I didn’t say OSP won any rounds. I said Jon didn’t dominate/finish him the way someone of his skill level should have. 

That's nonsensical. Also, it goes on your record the same. W.

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 Floyd while being a piece of trash as a man is someone that’s still beloved by a large amount of the population

Uh, no he ain't. That is unless you count Fight Hype. Go to any fight he's fighting an ethnic fighter, which is basically every fight. The crowd is 90% against himself. The other 10 percent is his entourage/girlfriends. His whole thing is people want to see him lose. And even though there is a vocal contingent of the African-American community that supports Floyd (including me), the price point of his PPVs make it very hard economically to support him. For every one or two people that COULD get the PPV, there is a bunch of people who just don't have the money to buy the PPV. Also, even if people fuck off their money on PPVs, a lot of that is last minute buys due to that reason. Mexican-American people, prior to Canelo moving to DAZN, weren't deciding to buy Canelo fights at the last minute. That only happened when he moved to DAZN since people weren't use to viewing big fights like that. Even then, they still it figured out. Now that's love.

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Talk to me when Jon is half as loved as Floyd, or he can draw against bum level fighters the way Floyd did (including McGreggor).

I didn't say he was the same level of draw as Floyd, even Floyd's Showtime tenure was quite disappointing except for Canelo, Pac, McGregor. All three of those dudes are (super) draws on their own.

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 Look at Jon’s numbers compared to GSP or Brock. 

Did I miss something? Did those guys come back this year? Those dudes don't fight for the UFC anymore and haven't for at least three years. Prior to that GSP hadn't fought regularly since 2013. Maybe Brock comes back for one one off, but the chances are pretty slim as time goes on.

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he’s not a great draw

He's a pretty good draw, and one of the two or three they got which in turn makes him a great draw for them. 

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Out of curiosity how many buys would you say a fight with Izzy at 205, or a HW fight with Francis would draw? 

It depends on the circumstances heading into the fight. I think both fights do pretty damn well. However, the perfect scenario is always champion vs. champion. I know people say it fucks the divisions up, but look at the aforementioned Cormier vs. Miocic trilogy. That's two guys in the same division, and that STILL caused the division to come to a grounding halt. Adesanya did not do himself any favors with the Romero performance, but people will forget that if he keeps winning. If Jon gets by whoever he faces next and either Adesanya or Ngannou comes off a highlight performance or two, it's a license to print money. In the case of a Ngannou fight, people have been wanting to see Jon move up for a long, long time. If this was regular cable provider PPV system, I can see it conservatively doing at a least a million. Canelo vs. Golovkin II went in with ZERO steam and managed to still do a million for the last HBO PPV ever. It's hard for me to see a Jon Jones "superfight" do less than that unless people just absolutely believe his opponent doesn't have a chance. Still it hasn't stopped people from buying other fights where that was the case.

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yeah I do expect Jon to be able to finish a bum like OSP

You do realize OSP has been under Zuffa employ since like 2011 and been in the UFC since April 2013. And it's not like he went on long losing streaks that would get him cut like a bunch of other people. In over seven years in the UFC, he has only two losing streaks past one fight. That was one from April 2016 to April 2017 (Jon Jones, Manuwa, and Oezdemir) and one from October 2018 to September 2019 (Reyes and Nikita Krylov). Three of those dudes are/were good fighters, one is a pretty good fighter as he showcased against Jon Jones earlier this year, and the remaining dude could be legitimately the best fighter to ever put on MMA gloves. He has yet to lose to a fighter that wasn't halfway decent. Will St. Preux ever go to the mythical, non tangible UFC HoF? No. Is he a pretty decent fighter? Yes. Also, St. Preux has had some pretty fucking peculiar fights. He has fights where literally nothing happens and then either OSP or his opponent gets hurt or knocked out. He has fights where he takes someone down or they end up in some type of scramble where for whatever reason his opponent goes for a guillotine choke from the bottom which allows OSP to choke that person out. Strange shit happens in OSP fights. Either way, Jon still dominated the fight. He comes from a camp where they're not going to force finishes. That's not their M.O to do that. He won every round and every round decisively. That's domination.

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If shitty owners run people away then why didn’t he leave for Bellator after that? Bellator has been willing to throw money around like crazy. 

See above my earlier reply. The UFC has been able to get away with their unethical treatment because people want to be good, little soldiers. Then, they see when the chips are down or they feel like you're doing something untoward them, the UFC won't have your back. That's how it is. And I'm the last dude to say the whole "If this was a real sport..." cause people get away shit in the NBA and NFL too. However, when you have a monopsony, you can keep a Jon Jones away from Bellator. Yes, they will get free agents but even in their worse, free money giving away days (which was several years after the UFC 151 thing FWIW), they're not going after a Jon Jones with the money he could possibly make. If true free agency existed in MMA, he would have been gone. However, I said years ago when Bellator DID start picking up notable free agents like Gegard Mousasi or Rory MacDonald that the FA fighters think exist doesn't actually exist. Hell, Rory ain't even with them anymore.

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And it’s not like he was some innocent victim with UFC 151. I still think he should have taken the fight (especially the extra $$$ that would have come with it), and smashed Chael as he did later on anyhow. Plus it would have saved his arm from getting torn up by Vitor. 

See here is the thing...when other fighters pull out of fights or don't take fights, Dana doesn't act like a petulant manchild that got his toy taken away. That day was a black eye for MMA. And that's saying something cause Dana has had some pretty bad days. That was one of the few moments where I knew that was going to stay with Dana forever especially the goddamn Greg Jackson sport killer thing. He's never going live that down. So it's not whether or not Jon should have taken the fight because every fan is going to beat their chest and say he should have. It's that Dana White decided to cut up his food with an axe instead of a fork and knife. You notice he hasn't had the same reaction in other instances. He has had a few hiccups here and there (with GSP or a few other people like Cyborg), but not full on temper tantrum like UFC 151. I know he so desperately wants to do cause he's Dana, but even he fucking knows that was the WRONG reaction. I think the other one like that is the Loretta Hunt stuff, but that's because he got into real hot water with that. This was the first time something like that happened with a fighter where he (kinda?) truly regrets it. That says A LOT.

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It works both ways if you’ve been good for the company that employs you

He has made them a ton of money over for almost a decade. He owes them nothing more. He doesn't have to be a model citizen just like they don't have to be a model company. Cause hey....they're not. And I'm the biggest UFC supporter you're going to find. Combat sports doesn't work in a way where outside shit has a direct correlation on what you get compensated. It's never worked like that going back to fucking Jack Johnson at the turn of the century when he hanging out with white prostitutes at a time in miscegenation was unlawful and drawing around in fancy cars. If you can get in the cage or boxing ring and people want to see you fight, you've done your job. End of story. You can re-litigate any and every someone has done, but at the end of the day, the ONLY thing that matters is if they can legally do what they are being paid to do. And he can do that. So Dana has to feebly talk about LeBron James even though NBA (and team sports in general) fandom and MMA fandom is something totally different. Also, wouldn't McGregor be the LBJ of MMA? I'm sure Conor loves that Dana sees Jon as the guy who should be the face of the UFC and not him.

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But yeah Jon is totally upstanding, and worthy of admiration.

Nobody said he was. You're venting about Jon Jones for no reason.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco

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1 hour ago, MavsFan77 said:

Your Mayweather argument carries no weight with me for one simple reason. Floyd while being a piece of trash as a man is someone that’s still beloved by a large amount of the population, and he’s a boxer who retired undefeated, and drew more money than anyone in any major professional sport that’s not named Michael Jordan. Talk to me when Jon is half as loved as Floyd, or he can draw against bum level fighters the way Floyd did (including McGreggor).

 

I'm going to need you to find the large amount of the population that loves Floyd Mayweather.  Or at least define large, because I'd be surprised if more than 1% of the population loves Floyd Mayweather.  He's one of the most universally loathed people in the country. 

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Masvidal is a bigger draw than Jon Jones at this point. 

Historically, Jones didn't draw really big numbers unless it was against Cormier. 

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I'm going to need you to find the large amount of the population that loves Floyd Mayweather.  Or at least define large, because I'd be surprised if more than 1% of the population loves Floyd Mayweather.  He's one of the most universally loathed people in the country. 

At best, Floyd has a lot of people that begrudgingly like him because they're either African-American too or people are dumb enough to pick Conor McGregor to beat him in a boxing match. If anything, the fact that people never liked Floyd (and this even BEFORE the legal stuff and other things outside the ring) hurt him from becoming a draw for over a decade. Floyd started fighting in 1996. He didn't become a real draw until the De La Hoya fight in 2007. Keep in mind, Floyd was part of the last Olympic cycle where people gave a shit about boxers in the Olympics. Even though Floyd was a champion in 1998 and already P4P one of the best in like 1999 before his first sabbatical/retirement, people loved Fernando Vargas way more than Floyd. The dislike for him blinding people into picking the universally beloved Arturo Gatti over him in their June 2005 one sided butchering. Go back and read those predictions that are still online. It's goddamn hilarious. People were picking with their heart instead of their head. People have always had that type of visceral reaction to him. Plus, there was this era in prior to the Gatti fight (years after the Diego Corrales fight that kinda first put him on the map in 2001) and just after the Gatti fight where he didn't draw jackshit because I think people were disillusioned into believing he's good...but not that good to go see him fight Joe Nobody. There is the Henry Bruseles fight where American Airlines Arena is full to like 1/3 capacity and that's being generous. There is the Sharmba Mitchell fight where the only fans at the Rose Garden is just some celebs (like Tiger and Jordan who were likely only there because the fight was sponsored by Jordan Brand and the Nike HQs are in Oregon), and hardcore black Floyd fans shouting "Whoop That Trick" cause Hustle and Flow had just came out that summer. Floyd's drawing power came from his ability to amplify that reaction, not getting people to love him.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Masvidal is a bigger draw than Jon Jones at this point. 

No, he isn't. He fought Nate Diaz who has a proven track of being a draw. He has yet to draw on his own. 

You notice Jorge hasn't been even matched in another fight since then. That was in early NOVEMBER of last year.

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Historically, Jones didn't draw really big numbers unless it was against Cormier. 

If the expectation is every major fight to do above a million buys in history, then guys like JCC (Sr.) never drew big numbers. Not everyone that gets big money gets big PPV numbers.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco

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Posted (edited)

Jones was not in a good position to start demanding huge money, whatever it was. Now, do I trust Dana White over all the text messaging stuff? No, I don't. Dana White is a fight promoter. I don't take anything he says at face value. He's always in promoter and always trying to sell the next fight.

Jones is a repeat offender who can't stay out of trouble. He's MMA's equivalent of Darryl Strawberry. He's lucky he's been able to get all the slaps on the wrist he's received with what he's done, let alone continue to have a prolific fight career. 

Frankly, I don't even care about Ngannou vs. Jones. I see no point in booking a super-fight now. There are two contenders at light heavyweight who are ready to fight Jones, but he doesn't even want to fight them at this point because he has "nothing to gain." How about, you are the champion of your division? Reyes gave you one of the closest fights of your career? They are the next contenders in line? 

If Jones didn't constantly fuck up his own life, he would've been in a position to fight Stipe Miocic for the heavyweight title instead of Cormier and start demanding more money. 

 

Edited by TheVileOne
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Just now, TheVileOne said:

Jones was not in a good position to start demanding huge money, whatever it was.

Yes, he is cause he is one of the only draws that have. You know what the NFL is without stars? The XFL. You know what the NBA is without stars? The G League.

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Now, do I trust Dana White over all the text messaging stuff? No, I don't. Dana White is a fight promoter. I don't take anything he says at face value. He's always in promoter and always trying to sell the next fight. 

Duh, this is why he can get dummies like you to deflect to stuff like this:

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Jones is a repeat offender who can't stay out of trouble. He's MMA's equivalent of Darryl Strawberry. He's lucky he's been able to get all the slaps on the wrist he's received with what he's done, let alone continue to have a prolific fight career. 

NONE OF THIS has to do with money. You know who is also a fuck up? Conor McGregor. You know who constantly is getting bailed out by the UFC? Conor McGregor. You know who is making a ton of money after pulling several attempts to fleece the UFC for more money? Conor McGregor. He has ONGOING shit constantly. I never heard Dana say, "Well if Conor didn't fuck up, we would pay him more money." It's cause it's fucking stupid and has nothing to do with paying a fighter and never did. And if being held to certain standards was the expectation, Dana White wouldn't have a job.

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Can't the argument just boil down to UFC would be better off with Jones getting paid better than without? Very few fighters can make that claim in the current product. Pay him what he's due even if I'm not his biggest fan. Hell, I'm not going to miss a Jones fight.

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He changed his nickname from Pretty Boy Floyd to Money Mayweather during a recession.  He's the ultimate in getting people to spend money hoping to see him lose.  I know people who like Floyd to root for the black dude, but I don't know anyone who loves Floyd.  

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