UFC 232: Jones vs. Gustafsson II (12/29/2018) - Inglewood, CA (The Forum)

[Craig H]

Novitzky on Rogan's podcast was somewhat confusing. Some of it I could follow, some of it I couldn't, and some sounded like outright bullshit.

BTW, the whole pulsing thing is especially squirrely because Novitzky was citing the doctor from the Icarus documentary who dosed himself and he himself was the one who noticed the pulsing shit...I think.

Like I said, the podcast was weird and confusing and Novitzky was talking in circles. Rogan was confused at times as well. Honestly, I don't trust what Novitzky is saying, but we'll see.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

Cyborg's theraputic use exemption is for spironolactone. Spironolactone is a diuretic, yes, but it's also a diuretic with anti-androgenic effects. If you want to take a diuretic to mask anabolic steroid use, spironolactone isn't a good one to use because of said anti-androgenic effects. It's commonly used as part of the feminizing hormone replacement therapy for trans women, which makes the earlier comments about her taking it to become more mannish quite silly. And lemme tell you, as someone who's been on spironolactone for a few years, it's really difficult to build and maintain muscle mass while on it.

[Jiji]

I listened to the Golden Snitch's first Rogan appearance and he came off as a corporate ass kiss and a liar. I can't imagine him sounding convincing in this situation. And Rogan just kinda nods and goes along with what the man's saying.

[Elsalvajeloco]

21 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Novitzky on Rogan's podcast was somewhat confusing. Some of it I could follow, some of it I couldn't, and some sounded like outright bullshit.

BTW, the whole pulsing thing is especially squirrely because Novitzky was citing the doctor from the Icarus documentary who dosed himself and he himself was the one who noticed the pulsing shit...I think.

Like I said, the podcast was weird and confusing and Novitzky was talking in circles. Rogan was confused at times as well. Honestly, I don't trust what Novitzky is saying, but we'll see.

Looking at the (weird) MMAmania post that Ace linked, if Nevada got a letter from Novitzky in early December about the summer tests w/ 8 picograms and 19 picograms, why did they wait until the third one to say, "This is pelicular...I dunno if we go forward with this."

That would be like some assistant manager at McDonalds allowing some cashier to steal 5 and 10 dollars out the register and then admonishing them after they take 100 dollars. If Nevada punishes Jon, they would look bad for allowing it to escalate. The only reason you would let that go is you believe it is consistent with what caused his July 2017 failure.

[Craig H]

14 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Looking at the (weird) MMAmania post that Ace linked, if Nevada got a letter from Novitzky in early December about the summer tests w/ 8 picograms and 19 picograms, why did they wait until the third one to say, "This is pelicular...I dunno if we go forward with this."

That would be like some assistant manager at McDonalds allowing some cashier to steal 5 and 10 dollars out the register and then admonishing them after they take 100 dollars. If Nevada punishes Jon, they would look bad for allowing it to escalate. The only reason you would let that go is you believe it is consistent with what caused his July 2017 failure.

Again, going off of memory from a confusing podcast, the reason why nothing happened then was because of two reasons:

1) The dosing is so incredibly small that it had to have been from something prior and it wouldn't have any positive effect
2) There's no double jeopardy and he was already serving a suspension at the time the 8 and 19 picogram tests came back

This is the first time I've ever heard of this double jeopardy thing, but I'm inclined to believe Novitzky on that one. So yeah, the belief was that it was from the 2017 failure and then the December test really raised eyebrows for whatever was happening. Could it be this pulsing thing? Who knows, but going off of one fucking scientist's explanation of pulsing based on a sample size of one doesn't look great. Even Rogan brought that up, but I think the conversation shifted.

Whether you like Joe Rogan or not, the podcast is worth a listen as it's only about 90 minutes and most of that is Novitzky explaining how we got from 2017 to now. Novitzky was also pretty confident the situation with Nevada would be wrapped up pretty soon.

The scientist/doctor from the Icarus documentary (sorry, I forgot his name) is reputable, but I don't think it's a good practice to use a sample size of ONE to explain what might be happening with Jones. What do I know though? I have a degree in graphic design and handle corporate communications and knowledge management.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Again, going off of memory from a confusing podcast, the reason why nothing happened then was because of two reasons:

1) The dosing is so incredibly small that it had to have been from something prior and it wouldn't have any positive effect
2) There's no double jeopardy and he was already serving a suspension at the time the 8 and 19 picogram tests came back

This is the first time I've ever heard of this double jeopardy thing, but I'm inclined to believe Novitzky on that one. So yeah, the belief was that it was from the 2017 failure and then the December test really raised eyebrows for whatever was happening. Could it be this pulsing thing? Who knows, but going off of one fucking scientist's explanation of pulsing based on a sample size of one doesn't look great. Even Rogan brought that up, but I think the conversation shifted.

Whether you like Joe Rogan or not, the podcast is worth a listen as it's only about 90 minutes and most of that is Novitzky explaining how we got from 2017 to now. Novitzky was also pretty confident the situation with Nevada would be wrapped up pretty soon.

The scientist/doctor from the Icarus documentary (sorry, I forgot his name) is reputable, but I don't think it's a good practice to use a sample size of ONE to explain what might be happening with Jones. What do I know though? I have a degree in graphic design and handle corporate communications and knowledge management.

But if we're going back to earlier this month, Nevada should have asked the UFC officials THEN if he is going to continue to show up with turinabol in his system, how do we distinguish the proper threshold between him taking this now and it being from some other time? You're three weeks away from a major MMA card and that's one of the headliners. You have no choice but to cut that off at the pass. It's either that or you bring in your experts right there.

The fact that commissioners were on vacation lets me know the Nevada commission wasn't as worried as they should have been.

[Craig H]

I don't think they cared until USADA sent them a memo about it because up until then they chalked it up to double jeopardy and there being nothing they could do about it.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Craig H said:

I don't think they cared until USADA sent them a memo about it because up until then they chalked it up to double jeopardy and there being nothing they could do about it.

You can tell UFC to take him off the card. What in Nevada's policies say they have to let you have turinabol at your system at the lowest levels and keep him on the card? The dude doesn't even have a license.

This makes me further believe they got caught with their pants down and were going to rubberstamp Jon if they could to fight this past Saturday.

[The Natural]

Interesting weight cut to weight gained stats:

https://www.mmafighting.com/2019/1/1/18163282/ufc-232-fight-night-weights-cris-cyborg-only-had-4-5-pound-advantage-on-amanda-nunes

[TheVileOne]

Alexander Gustafsson looked defeated before he stepped into the cage with Jones. He never truly believed he could win.

That stupid commission official. Just move away from Jones' arms you stupid idiot. Stop ducking under his arms. You look like a fucking numpty. 

[Jiji]

I am so glad he did not move away. That has legit given me so much joy watching that on an infinite loop.

[A.M.B.]

Random af but it’s good to see you still posting here Craig H, haven’t been on this board in years and finding your BJW vids on Limewire back in the day was what got me into puroresu.

Jon Jones is likely taking Cheque Drops, I can’t believe there is any doubt he is dirty when he’s popped 3 times and has 2 brothers who have popped as well. How is any of this hard to wrap your head around? Not to mention Jamie combs through and deletes every single comment mentioning Cheque Drops on Joe “You can’t stop the internet” Rogan’s podcast with Novitsky.

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 minutes ago, A.M.B. said:

Random af but it’s good to see you still posting here Craig H, haven’t been on this board in years and finding your BJW vids on Limewire back in the day was what got me into puroresu.

Jon Jones is likely taking Cheque Drops, I can’t believe there is any doubt he is dirty when he’s popped 3 times and has 2 brothers who have popped as well. How is any of this hard to wrap your head around? Not to mention Jamie combs through and deletes every single comment mentioning Cheque Drops on Joe “You can’t stop the internet” Rogan’s podcast with Novitsky.

Yup, that's random as fuck.

[Craig H]

5 hours ago, A.M.B. said:

Random af but it’s good to see you still posting here Craig H, haven’t been on this board in years and finding your BJW vids on Limewire back in the day was what got me into puroresu.

Jon Jones is likely taking Cheque Drops, I can’t believe there is any doubt he is dirty when he’s popped 3 times and has 2 brothers who have popped as well. How is any of this hard to wrap your head around? Not to mention Jamie combs through and deletes every single comment mentioning Cheque Drops on Joe “You can’t stop the internet” Rogan’s podcast with Novitsky.

Um, what? You have me mistaken with someone else.

[Elsalvajeloco]

20 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Um, what? You have me mistaken with someone else.

Maybe you just don't remember.

[Craig H]

22 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Maybe you just don't remember.

Maybe...Pretty sure I would remember though.

That and I've never watched BJW in my life and my experience with Limewire was limited to downloading roms and mp3s like most college students I assume.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Maybe...Pretty sure I would remember though.

That and I've never watched BJW in my life and my experience with Limewire was limited to downloading roms and mp3s like most college students I assume.

I was kidding only cause I'm pretty sure he is confusing you with Ditch or anyone of the several other people that use to rip wrestling matches that would wind up on Kazaa, Limewire, or any of the other P2P programs from 15 or 20 years ago.

[Craig H]

Oh, I knew you were joking, but I couldn't think of the guy who was ripping all of those matches. 

And now I again know. Ditch.

[A.M.B.]

Never mind there was a Craig H(erwill?) I used to buy bootlegs from back in the day. Definitely not Ditch, a lot of the BJW on Ditch’s site was uploaded by me. But Craig H brought classic Big Japan to the masses. Anyway. 

Can’t wait for Ryan Hall’s next fight in two years. Hope I’m wrong.

[SirFozzie]

They announced that they drug tested Jones multiple times the night of the fight, and he passed every single one of them. No trace of masking agents, no trace of the metabolite he tested for.

 

Sounds like A) Either he's got some next-gen stuff that people don't even know how to test for (highly unlikely), or, yeah, all the scientists saying "This is not evidence of a failed test or of use of PED." were right

[supremebve]

30 minutes ago, SirFozzie said:

They announced that they drug tested Jones multiple times the night of the fight, and he passed every single one of them. No trace of masking agents, no trace of the metabolite he tested for.

 

Sounds like A) Either he's got some next-gen stuff that people don't even know how to test for (highly unlikely), or, yeah, all the scientists saying "This is not evidence of a failed test or of use of PED." were right

The real issue with the metabolites that he tested positive for is that it is from one of the hardest to test for steroids in existance.  From what I understand it is something that was developed by the East Germans.  I wish I could remember who I heard break this down, but the trouble with steroid testing is that you aren't actually allowed to do tests on how these substances work in the human body.  So when something like this pops up, they have to assume how it works in the human body over time.  They don't actually know how it works in the body over time, it is against the law to actually test how it works on a human being.  Turnibol, which is what he tested positive for, is out of your system within a couple of days so they have to use long term metabolites to actually catch someone on Turnibol.  So, we know that he used something that they don't really know how to test for, and the evidence of him using wouldn't be detectable unless he did Turnibol within a couple of days of the fight.  So, we know that Jon Jones had metabolites of this very hard to detect drug in his system, but there is no way to know when he did those steroids, how long he did those steroids, or if he's still doing those steroids.  The question is when someone gets caught with this particular steroid, how many times can you punish them for having these long term metabolites in their system?  We know for a fact that he did this drug, it is just impossible to know when, or for how long...can you punish someone every time this comes up or do you have to assume it is remnants from the original time this popped up?