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Death From Above

October 2013 NHL Thread

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Hockey is some archaic bullshit, though.  That's the original point the person was getting at.  Sports are archaic bullshit but ESPECIALLY hockey.

 

How do we justify allowing hitting and not fighting?  How is hitting part of hockey? 

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If you really believe elbowing, stickwork, and hitting from behind won't increase in a hockey without fighting, God help you. I mean you've watched enough hockey to have a sense of who the NHL has at referee.

 

The idea referees police sports is insanely naive. Players police themselves in pretty much all the major sports. Hockey handles it in a strange way.

 

I would dispute that sports are archaic bullshit though. They're a form of entertainment like any other. I mean, they put in probably 100 times the work actors do, for a lot less social respect. I don't really know why. Acting is basically dungeons and dragons where you get paid, which is great and all. But I'm not really sure what makes it a socially respected profession comparatively to athletics.

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If you really believe elbowing, stickwork, and hitting from behind won't increase in a hockey without fighting, God help you. I mean you've watched enough hockey to have a sense of who the NHL has at referee.

 

The idea referees police sports is insanely naive. Players police themselves in pretty much all the major sports. Hockey handles it in a strange way.

That's the key, though. It would have to rely on two things. Referees actually calling the game and suspensions being consistent and harsh.

 

Charlie, they've outlawed the hits blatantly targeting the head. Of course, that ain't going to remove concussions from hits but it will help. You can't make a game with dudes as fast and big as NHLers safe but you can do things to limit needless risks.

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Yeah but we know that's a half measure that's doing little to nothing to reduce concussions.  You get a concussion if you're hit in the chest.  This whole putting hits under the microscope to see if someone is "targeting" the head is only making self-righteous people feel better about themselves and about the NHL protecting itself from a lawsuit.

 

Why is hitting part of hockey?  Why do we accept that?  It's not part of basketball or soccer.  Why are you physically allowed to attack someone even when he doesn't have the puck? 

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That's the key, though. It would have to rely on two things. Referees actually calling the game and suspensions being consistent and harsh.

 

I have a hard time believing either of those things could happen.

 

Refereeing is wildly inconsistent at the best of times. I've actually shit on referees a lot less since the NFL referee lockout. Getting to see what top level sports looked like when people that were way over their head were put out there was... astounding really, as a lifelong watcher of the game. But even watching the real guys, there are always problems.

 

As for the suspension thing, we know the NHL won't drop the hammer because they only do when it's convienent towards certain people like McSorely or Torres. And even so, honestly the cynic in me says if my team gets into the playoffs and is wildly overmatched against say the Pittsburgh Penguins, I can totally see a thought process of "do everything possible to anger Evgeni Malkin until a brawl breaks out in the last 5 minutes and we get him suspended". I'm not saying "Fighting can never be eliminated from hockey" exactly, but at the same time if there's one thing athletes are good at it is finding ways to ignore rules.

 

I've wanted tougher suspensions for years in general, but it never seems to happen. The problem is it's the GMs and the players that have input on that. No GM seems willing to risk that it will be his guy suspended for 10 games instead of 3 at the end of the day.

 

I don't really think it's a rule issue, it's a culture of the game issue. Similar in that sense to faking injuries in soccer. You can legislate against it all you want but unless the basic concept of people involved feeling it is ok ever changes, then you will always have the same issue, to some degree. If you want to eliminate fighting from hockey, the change that has to be made isn't in the rulebook but in the basic concept of weather it's acceptable in the game itself, which aren't the same thing really. But I really don't know how you achieve that.

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How would eliminating blind headshots not reduce concussions?

 

I get your point, Charlie. Hockey is a construct, right. Constructs change and evolve.

 

DFA, how do you make people feel things are acceptable/unacceptable about a sport? The conventional way is through the rulebook. Referees are capable of calling the games closer, we've seen it. Do you have specific examples of how fighting acts as a deterrent because that's a myth in my mind and there isn't any evidence to support your theory from what I've seen.

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Yeah but we know that's a half measure that's doing little to nothing to reduce concussions.  You get a concussion if you're hit in the chest.  This whole putting hits under the microscope to see if someone is "targeting" the head is only making self-righteous people feel better about themselves and about the NHL protecting itself from a lawsuit.

 

Why is hitting part of hockey?  Why do we accept that?  It's not part of basketball or soccer.  Why are you physically allowed to attack someone even when he doesn't have the puck? 

 

I had this debate with myself like 5 or 6 years ago over football. It's a violent game. That's obvious to everyone. Am I willing to put up with the consequences of what I'm going to see due to that or not? I decided for myself that I was. It's a serious quesiton that a sports fan is entitled to ask.

 

I don't watch MMA very much anymore, but that's not an issue of violence. I simply don't care for the product. But the violence aspect isn't what turns me off.

 

I don't have a problem with contact sports. Both playing them as an adult and watching them is a moral choice. "Don't give people the choice" is some totalitarian nonsense. If you don't want to watch contact sports, that's fine. There are literally dozens of alternatives.

 

I think trying to change sports into something they aren't is a waste of time. See the classic American argument: "Soccer would be great if it wasn't soccer". Or basically me on basketball: "Basketball would be great if it was NBA Jam instead of basketball".

 

No sport has fundamentally changed what it is, to my knowledge, ever. I don't see any reason to believe it can be done now. It just seems like a waste of energy to me.

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I'll just lastly say that I like fighting in hockey because I like that wild element that the game has compared to other sports.  I like the feeling that it could erupt at anytime, that guys have an outlet for their emotions, and maybe once in a blue moon the goalies will throw soft punches at each other. 

 

If you remove the wild, unpredictable element of hockey, it becomes a pretty tedious game. Also, they fighters might get trapped on the ice against skilled players and defying all conventional logic, something interesting might happen in a hockey game.

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Yeah but we know that's a half measure that's doing little to nothing to reduce concussions.  You get a concussion if you're hit in the chest.  This whole putting hits under the microscope to see if someone is "targeting" the head is only making self-righteous people feel better about themselves and about the NHL protecting itself from a lawsuit.

 

Why is hitting part of hockey?  Why do we accept that?  It's not part of basketball or soccer.  Why are you physically allowed to attack someone even when he doesn't have the puck? 

 

I had this debate with myself like 5 or 6 years ago over football. It's a violent game. That's obvious to everyone. Am I willing to put up with the consequences of what I'm going to see due to that or not? I decided for myself that I was. It's a serious quesiton that a sports fan is entitled to ask.

 

I don't watch MMA very much anymore, but that's not an issue of violence. I simply don't care for stuffing instead of potatoes. But the violence aspect isn't what turns me off.

 

I don't have a problem with contact sports. Both playing them as an adult and watching them is a moral choice. "Don't give people the choice" is some totalitarian nonsense. If you don't want to watch contact sports, that's fine. There are literally dozens of alternatives.

 

I think trying to change sports into something they aren't is a waste of time. See the classic American argument: "Soccer would be great if it wasn't soccer". Or basically me on basketball: "Basketball would be great if it was NBA Jam instead of basketball".

 

No sport has fundamentally changed what it is, to my knowledge, ever. I don't see any reason to believe it can be done now. It just seems like a waste of energy to me.

 

Posted Image

Change happens all the time. No three point line in the NBA before '79-'80.

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Whoa there Patrick, calm down. It's just the first game and you won in a blowout. Chillax.

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I don't consider that as radical a change as "lets change from a contact game to a non contact game" which is essentially where this is going.

 

That's like the split between rugby and soccer going back into the 1800's, almost. It's the only real thing I can think of that is even remotely in the ballpark, although even then, it's not really something that was thought about the way this discussion is I'm sure.

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"What's that Bruce? I can't hear you because I've got my two Stanley Cup rings plugging my ears."

 

EDIT:


20:00 Posted ImageCol Patrick Bordeleau (Game Misconduct (Head Coach) - 10 min)   20:00 Posted ImageCol Bench (Leaving the Bench (Coach/Staff) - 2 min) served by Patrick Bordeleau

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Do you have specific examples of how fighting acts as a deterrent because that's a myth in my mind and there isn't any evidence to support your theory from what I've seen.

 

It's a hard subject to draw conclusions on because how many of us watch any of the Euro leagues where these rules take place either way.

 

I do know that in terms of "experts" (defined as members of the media, ex-coaches, ex-players, etc) who have commented on the issue, the vast majority have basically said what I said, and I'm parroting them.

 

Even the ones that want to eliminate fighting for the most part say that the idea it's a straight line to non-violence is a fallacy, and say be cautious about how you do it. Most of them still agree you're going to have to deal with an increase in other unwanted behaviour. From Scott Bowman to Bob McKenzie and almost all other points. Everyone is agreed pretty much that "fighting gone, everything wlll be smooth" won't happen.

 

It's possible they're all wrong but I don't really see any good reason to believe that. I do want to point out I'm not trying to crap on your position or anything though. This is pretty much the only good discussion on this subject I've been involved in so far this week.

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I'll just lastly say that I like fighting in hockey because I like that wild element that the game has compared to other sports.  I like the feeling that it could erupt at anytime, that guys have an outlet for their emotions, and maybe once in a blue moon the goalies will throw soft punches at each other. 

 

If you remove the wild, unpredictable element of hockey, it becomes a pretty tedious game. Also, they fighters might get trapped on the ice against skilled players and defying all conventional logic, something interesting might happen in a hockey game.

 

 

The best.

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Whoa there Patrick, calm down. It's just the first game and you won in a blowout. Chillax.

Please remember who you adressed this too.Roy as coach is gonna be fun as hell. Can coaches get fighting majors?

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I haven't even seen it yet but 50/50 says the Avalanche staged the whole thing to ramp up ticket sales.

 

Not even saying that's a bad thing either. Baseball managers have been making asses of themselves to increase team's celebrity for years. It's a proven and tested method. :-)

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Posted Image

 

Patrick Roy as a head coach in the NHL is going to be absolutely great. I'm so happy he hasn't mellowed with age.

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That link ain't working. Here's YT footage:

 

Also this:

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Patrick Roy will win all of these arguments because he can play the "I'm Patrick Roy, motherfucker." card against every coach.

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Something about rings and ears.

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I think Patrick Roy wins this argument because he can play the "he's Bruce Boudreau, deep down everyone wants to bash him over the head" card as well.

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A whack-a-mole game with the heads of famous NHL coaches would probably be a huge hit in a few Canadian rinks at least.

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No sport has fundamentally changed what it is, to my knowledge, ever. I don't see any reason to believe it can be done now. It just seems like a waste of energy to me.

 

You could make an argument that baseball is pretty wildly different now than it was in its original incarnation.

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