Michael Sweetser Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 The rules for the WON HOF are: At least 15 years of experience, or; Over 35 years old and at least 10 years of experience Omega debuted in 2000 and will be 35 next year, so he already qualifies. I'm thinking the rules need to be modified, considering how many workers are not only starting out very young these days, but are wrestling for far longer, and not staying retired even when they say they will. The age requirement always seemed insanely low to me - back in the day, most guys wouldn't even get a push till they were in their 30s. As Cornette has brought up before, Nick Bockwinkel was 41 when he won his first AWA World title. It feels weird for a guy like AJ Styles to be in the HOF, despite being 40, since it feels like he's still doing the best work of his career right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 5 hours ago, sevendaughters said: never heard of Mark Lewin, does that mean he's more famous in Australia than Australia's Favourite Wrestler Will Ospreay? Lewin's kind of a tricky case as a fan looking backwards because so much of what we had from him (up until a few years ago) was from Florida in the 80s, when he was working the Haze gimmick. He had a presence in Sullivan's promos and probably scared the crap out of some kids in general, but considering he started wrestling in the 50s, he was obviously very limited in what he could or would do in the ring: There are a few matches of him as the babyface vs the Sheik running around too, but a little of that goes a long way: With the unleashing of the Houston footage, we ended with a lot more 78-81 Lewin. The heel stuff with Gary Hart isn't pretty. By that point of his career, he was a fairly uncompelling chop-puncher for the most part (which in and of itself isn't damning, but you've got to find a way to make it work). There's one legitimately great match vs Terry Funk, but that's far more on Funk than on Lewin (it's out there on youtube, posted a month ago). His babyface turn on Gary Hart is not on Youtube, but it was awesome. I like him much more as a pissed off old man babyface against someone like Gino Hernandez, because that sort of chop-punch plodding offense works a lot better with someone stooging for it (the same is true with aged babyface Stan Stasiak in Portland), but most of that isn't online either (there's a match vs Gary Hart on dailymotion from that run though). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 3 hours ago, odessasteps said: Mark Lewin - Best Wrestler to ever emerge from the sea How dare you. 8 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 30, 2017 Author Share Posted November 30, 2017 Just for those talking about the eligibility requirements for the HOF - this is how weird it is when you start voting on folks so young AJ Styles dropped off the ballot TWICE before the New Japan/WWE run that many folks felt is the work that put him over the top. I am 99% sure Dave broke his own rules to add him back on a third time. In general - the two usual morals to take away from the WON Hall of Fame 1) Don't let it influence your enjoyment of wrestling (similar to star ratings) 2) Don't love lucha 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 And honestly? At the end of the day, remember that while it's the best thing we have, it's still and will always be Dave's Hall of Fame. As such, a guy like Kenny Omega probably does mean more to the WON's particular view of wrestling than a guy like JYD, who was mocked by the publication for years on end, even if that notion is probably insane in more objective terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 30, 2017 Author Share Posted November 30, 2017 It's clear that the people who Dave pimps/votes are the ones who get in. Plain and simple. Well except Edge... who was apparently a bridge too far for everyone involved 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevendaughters Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Dylan Hales was against the Suzuki induction but I disagree. It's probably fair to say that Suzuki is in a popularity bubble now and maybe in 10 years time his stock could fall rather than rise (particularly if hi-octane super-go wrestling becomes more normalised) but a lot of stuff in wrestling is timing, even the entry to an ultimately meaningless Hall of Fame for a newsletter that apparently half of the boys in the back hate anyway . However, Hales did make the point that no lucha induction from a packed field is something of a travesty and I agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Every time new WON HOF inductees get announced and I read the names all I can think is "...and people complained about Sting going in?" 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 57 minutes ago, RIPPA said: Just for those talking about the eligibility requirements for the HOF - this is how weird it is when you start voting on folks so young AJ Styles dropped off the ballot TWICE before the New Japan/WWE run that many folks felt is the work that put him over the top. I am 99% sure Dave broke his own rules to add him back on a third time. In general - the two usual morals to take away from the WON Hall of Fame 1) Don't let it influence your enjoyment of wrestling (similar to star ratings) 2) Don't love lucha I've hardly seen AJ Styles NJPW run but heard how praised it is. I'm meaning to jump into that. I think that and his WWE run so far mainly pushed Styles over the number required for entry into the WON HOF. For consistency in ROH, TNA and WWE in ring, I'd vote for the Phenomenal One. 27 minutes ago, sevendaughters said: Dylan Hales was against the Suzuki induction but I disagree. It's probably fair to say that Suzuki is in a popularity bubble now and maybe in 10 years time his stock could fall rather than rise (particularly if hi-octane super-go wrestling becomes more normalised) but a lot of stuff in wrestling is timing, even the entry to an ultimately meaningless Hall of Fame for a newsletter that apparently half of the boys in the back hate anyway . However, Hales did make the point that no lucha induction from a packed field is something of a travesty and I agree with that. I like some Minoru Suzuki whereas some I don't, when Suzuki is on he's really good. The man has a unique presence. Awesome entrance theme too. I agree with you when it comes to timing. Please could someone post the percentages the new WON HoF entries received and what did Edge get? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 30, 2017 Author Share Posted November 30, 2017 WON voting results (formatting is gonna be fucked up) Spoiler HALL OF FAME BALLOTING RESULTS Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: U.S. and Canada modern 196; U.S. and Canada historical 157; Japan 117; Mexico 93; Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands, 72; Europe 117 PERFORMER VOTES PCT 2016 Mark Lewin 84 70% 34% A.J. Styles 205 63% ---- Mike & Ben Sharpe 122 63% 50% Minoru Suzuki 121 62% 37% Pedro Morales 159 61% 54% Los Misioneros de la Muerte 89 57% 47% Gary Hart 182 55% 49% Jimmy Hart 178 54% 46% Howard Finkel 177 54% 44% Bill Apter 171 52% 48% Yuji Nagata 98 50% 21% Ultimo Guerrero 77 50% 28% Villano III 77 50% 56% Johnny Saint 97 50% 37% Jim Crockett Sr. 130 50% 42% Don Owen 164 50% 32% Jerry Jarrett 162 50% 47% Edge 161 49% 40% Cien Caras 76 49% 58% Jun Akiyama 92 47% 45% L.A. Park 73 47% 39% Karloff Lagarde 71 46% 42% Blanchard/Anderson w/Dillon 148 45% ---- Dr. Wagner Jr. 70 45% 27% Stanley Weston 118 45% 39% Killer Karl Kox 52 43% 21% Ed Francis 51 43% 12% Sputnik Monroe 108 41% ---- Bearcat Wright 107 41% 31% Sgt. Slaughter 133 41% 37% Blue Panther 64 41% 50% Lord James Blears 48 40% 42% Curt Hennig 128 39% 33% Spyros Arion 45 38% 32% Rollerball Mark Rocco 75 38% 32% Hayabusa 73 37% 49% Enrique Torres 94 36% 36% Yoshiaki Fujiwara 69 35% 30% Big Daddy 69 35% 45% Akira Taue 66 34% 28% George Scott 89 34% 21% Dominic DeNucci 48 33% ---- Cima 64 33% 40% Los Brazos 49 32% 29% Tim “Mr. Wrestling” Woods 80 31% 21% Junkyard Dog 100 31% 32% Johnny “Wrestling II” Walker 77 30% 40% Bill Goldberg 97 30% ---- Jim Crockett Jr. 97 30% Larry Matysik 78 30% 29% Kendo Nagasaki 55 28% 19% Dave Brown 92 28% 18% Ricki Starr 50 26% 38% Red Bastien 64 25% 35% Archie “Mongolian Stomper” Gouldie 64 25% 21% Caristico/Mistico 38 25% 30% Johnny Barend 30 25% 22% June Byers 62 24% 33% C.M. Punk 77 24% 20% Kiyoshi Tamura 47 24% 24% Huracan Ramirez 37 24% 36% Otto Wanz 44 23% 34% Randy Orton 74 23% 17% George Steele 52 20% ---- Mario Milano 24 20% ---- Billy Joyce 39 20% 18% John Tolos 47 18% 17% Von Brauners w/Saul Weingeroff 47 18% 22% Wild Bull Curry 46 18% ---- Ultimate Warrior 60 18% 19% Steve Rickard 21 18% 12% Blackjack Mulligan 44 17% 26% Kerry Von Erich 53 16% 13% Tetsuya Naito 32 16% ---- Ruben Juarez 24 15% ---- Rocky Johnson 34 13% 20% Trish Stratus 42 13% ---- Kota Ibushi 26 13% ---- Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan 25 13% 16% Chavo Guerrero Sr. 32 12% ---- Cowboy Bob Ellis 28 11% 20% Horst Hoffman 22 11% 11% Don Fargo 27 10% 13% Vampiro 16 10% 13% Jackie Pallo 20 10% 40% Less than 10% of the votes from region and dropped from next year’s ballot: Pepper Gomez, Dick Hutton, Sangre Chicana, Chyna Dropped from next year’s ballot due to the 15 year/50% rule: Curt Hennig, Tim “Mr. Wrestling” Woods Added to the ballot next year: Rick Martel, Kenny Omega Will be dropped next year if not inducted or 50%: Kiyoshi Tamura, Blue Panther, Red Bastien, Jerry Jarrett, Jun Akiyama, Johnny “Wrestling II” Walker, John Tolos, Cien Caras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 30, 2017 Author Share Posted November 30, 2017 In non-HOF WON news but to follow up on the Cody/Young Bucks running their own show thing Here is Meltzer's take Quote This is far from a done deal, but a comment I made on Twitter in May has led to an attempt to put together what would be the biggest show in company history sometime next year. Cody and the Young Bucks are working very seriously at putting together an event in a 10,000-plus seat arena and promoting and putting up the money for the show themselves. The person who sent me the question of whether I thought ROH could sell 10,000 tickets to a show and I said “at no time soon” deserves credit for this one, because Cody in particular immediately the answer as another challenge. I would think you’d have to make it the biggest ROH PPV of the year for such an undertaking. The WrestleMania week show in New Orleans is in a 9,000 seat arena with Kenny Omega and Hiroshi Tanahashi, but ROH is planning on setting it up for less than that and this isn’t the show in talks. It’s a big step from 3,500 (the ROH record attendance set at this year’s Mania with the Hardys vs. Young Bucks ladder match) to 10,000, and nobody has done 10,000 for a U.S. show besides WWE since the self-destruction of WCW in the late 90s. The last non-WWE show to do 10,000 paid that we could find a record of was the May 9, 1999 WCW Spring Stampede at the TWA Dome in St. Louis on which drew 20,516 fans and 13,789 paid with a triple main event of DDP vs. Kevin Nash for the WCW title, Sting vs. Bill Goldberg and Ric Flair vs. Roddy Piper. There was another later show that topped 10,000 in the building but was heavily papered and the paid was just over 8,000. The one thing is if they build it up big, and go with either Cody vs. Omega or Cody vs. Bryan Danielson, especially if they time that as Danielson’s first match out of WWE, and time it when they can get key NJPW talent like Kazuchika Okada, Tetsuya Naito and Hiroshi Tanahashi, they probably can successfully run a major arena. Cody himself said on Busted Open radio that he and Danielson would be his pick for the main event. If you’re really looking at a best shot, the biggest match they could do this year outside WWE would be Bryan’s first match out, and keep in mind it is far from a given that will happen, against Omega. Whether they can do 10,000 is tougher since WWE these days sometimes does that with Raws in the biggest markets, but most of the time doesn’t, and usually does with PPVs or MSG house shows, but rarely anything else. Also, they hardly have to sell 10,000 tickets to make the show worthwhile. WWE runs arenas that size all the time and those shows are profitable if they sell 3,000 tickets and a show like this I’m guessing would do far more than WWE does merchandise wise for a similar sized fan base just because ROH shows have become almost more about lines for merchandise and autographs than the shows themselves of late. The flip side is that from a time standpoint, the Bullet Club can’t do meet and greets these days in a show with 1,200 fans without having to spend hours before the show, during intermission and in some cases, after the show to fulfill all the requests. It’s hard to see how it would be humanly possible to pull that off if there were 6,000 or more fans attending. At this point the only thing official is Cody and the Young Bucks have all agreed to co-promote it and they are taking the idea to ROH with the idea of them being part of the promotion. The probable name for the show is “All In.” There are several buildings under consideration including the Cow Palace in San Francisco (disadvantage is no ROH television in the market, advantage is cheap rent for a building so large with a rich wrestling history and the Young Bucks, NJPW stars and key ROH guys have all never been in the city, and Danielson is extremely popular in the market), a building in Southern California and of course Chicago based on the response to Omega’s first time in that city. Marty Scurll just recently had teased the idea of running SSE Wembley in London, the same building that Progress has already booked for a show in 2018. I do know that if all goes right, they are hopeful of finalizing things and making an announcement of the time and place relatively soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, RIPPA said: WON voting results (formatting is gonna be fucked up) Hide contents HALL OF FAME BALLOTING RESULTS Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: U.S. and Canada modern 196; U.S. and Canada historical 157; Japan 117; Mexico 93; Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands, 72; Europe 117 PERFORMER VOTES PCT 2016 Mark Lewin 84 70% 34% A.J. Styles 205 63% ---- Mike & Ben Sharpe 122 63% 50% Minoru Suzuki 121 62% 37% Pedro Morales 159 61% 54% Los Misioneros de la Muerte 89 57% 47% Gary Hart 182 55% 49% Jimmy Hart 178 54% 46% Howard Finkel 177 54% 44% Bill Apter 171 52% 48% Yuji Nagata 98 50% 21% Ultimo Guerrero 77 50% 28% Villano III 77 50% 56% Johnny Saint 97 50% 37% Jim Crockett Sr. 130 50% 42% Don Owen 164 50% 32% Jerry Jarrett 162 50% 47% Edge 161 49% 40% Cien Caras 76 49% 58% Jun Akiyama 92 47% 45% L.A. Park 73 47% 39% Karloff Lagarde 71 46% 42% Blanchard/Anderson w/Dillon 148 45% ---- Dr. Wagner Jr. 70 45% 27% Stanley Weston 118 45% 39% Killer Karl Kox 52 43% 21% Ed Francis 51 43% 12% Sputnik Monroe 108 41% ---- Bearcat Wright 107 41% 31% Sgt. Slaughter 133 41% 37% Blue Panther 64 41% 50% Lord James Blears 48 40% 42% Curt Hennig 128 39% 33% Spyros Arion 45 38% 32% Rollerball Mark Rocco 75 38% 32% Hayabusa 73 37% 49% Enrique Torres 94 36% 36% Yoshiaki Fujiwara 69 35% 30% Big Daddy 69 35% 45% Akira Taue 66 34% 28% George Scott 89 34% 21% Dominic DeNucci 48 33% ---- Cima 64 33% 40% Los Brazos 49 32% 29% Tim “Mr. Wrestling” Woods 80 31% 21% Junkyard Dog 100 31% 32% Johnny “Wrestling II” Walker 77 30% 40% Bill Goldberg 97 30% ---- Jim Crockett Jr. 97 30% Larry Matysik 78 30% 29% Kendo Nagasaki 55 28% 19% Dave Brown 92 28% 18% Ricki Starr 50 26% 38% Red Bastien 64 25% 35% Archie “Mongolian Stomper” Gouldie 64 25% 21% Caristico/Mistico 38 25% 30% Johnny Barend 30 25% 22% June Byers 62 24% 33% C.M. Punk 77 24% 20% Kiyoshi Tamura 47 24% 24% Huracan Ramirez 37 24% 36% Otto Wanz 44 23% 34% Randy Orton 74 23% 17% George Steele 52 20% ---- Mario Milano 24 20% ---- Billy Joyce 39 20% 18% John Tolos 47 18% 17% Von Brauners w/Saul Weingeroff 47 18% 22% Wild Bull Curry 46 18% ---- Ultimate Warrior 60 18% 19% Steve Rickard 21 18% 12% Blackjack Mulligan 44 17% 26% Kerry Von Erich 53 16% 13% Tetsuya Naito 32 16% ---- Ruben Juarez 24 15% ---- Rocky Johnson 34 13% 20% Trish Stratus 42 13% ---- Kota Ibushi 26 13% ---- Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan 25 13% 16% Chavo Guerrero Sr. 32 12% ---- Cowboy Bob Ellis 28 11% 20% Horst Hoffman 22 11% 11% Don Fargo 27 10% 13% Vampiro 16 10% 13% Jackie Pallo 20 10% 40% Less than 10% of the votes from region and dropped from next year’s ballot: Pepper Gomez, Dick Hutton, Sangre Chicana, Chyna Dropped from next year’s ballot due to the 15 year/50% rule: Curt Hennig, Tim “Mr. Wrestling” Woods Added to the ballot next year: Rick Martel, Kenny Omega Will be dropped next year if not inducted or 50%: Kiyoshi Tamura, Blue Panther, Red Bastien, Jerry Jarrett, Jun Akiyama, Johnny “Wrestling II” Walker, John Tolos, Cien Caras Cheers. Interesting how close the percentage was for Styles, Sharpe Brothers, Suzuki and Morales getting over the line. Howard Finkel needs to be in as he's the best ever to do what he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 1 hour ago, RIPPA said: In general - the two usual morals to take away from the WON Hall of Fame 1) Don't let it influence your enjoyment of wrestling (similar to star ratings) 2) Don't love lucha Well, Perro Jr did make it in a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 25 minutes ago, The Natural said: I've hardly seen AJ Styles NJPW run but heard how praised it is. I'm meaning to jump into that. I think that and his WWE run so far mainly pushed Styles over the number required for entry into the WON HOF. For consistency in ROH, TNA and WWE in ring, I'd vote for the Phenomenal One. I like some Minoru Suzuki whereas some I don't, when Suzuki is on he's really good. The man has a unique presence. Awesome entrance theme too. I agree with you when it comes to timing. Suzuki/Styles in the G1 won 2014 MOTY in the Observer, so that might be an appropriate place to start with AJ in Japan, given their induction. Regarding Suzuki in general, I'm shamelessly a massive fan: Quirks, endless interference, occasional laziness and all. Were I to do the work, there's a very good chance his G1 bout against Okada would be my top match this year, and he's 49. Just remarkable longevity. Still, one of the best ever? I don't know. But one of my favorites ever, for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 30, 2017 Author Share Posted November 30, 2017 6 minutes ago, Pete said: Well, Perro Jr did make it in a few years ago. And he had to die to get in... and he shouldn't have gotten in ahead of a half a dozen guys still on the ballot But hey - at least Ultimo Dragon got put in years ago Grr.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Just now, RIPPA said: And he had to die to get in... and he shouldn't have gotten in ahead of a half a dozen guys still on the ballot But hey - at least Ultimo Dragon got put in years ago Grr.... I was wondering how to go there but yes, this is absolutely right. He had to die to get in. It's debatable if he even belonged in. It's not debatable that he didn't belong in over the long queue of more qualified lucha candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 23 minutes ago, Beech27 said: Suzuki/Styles in the G1 won 2014 MOTY in the Observer, so that might be an appropriate place to start with AJ in Japan, given their induction. Regarding Suzuki in general, I'm shamelessly a massive fan: Quirks, endless interference, occasional laziness and all. Were I to do the work, there's a very good chance his G1 bout against Okada would be my top match this year, and he's 49. Just remarkable longevity. Still, one of the best ever? I don't know. But one of my favorites ever, for sure. Cheers for the recommendations. I like Suzuki even with those caveats you rightly bring up. I also get a kick, pun not originally intended, honest of Minoru kicking people off the apron as part of his entrance. Suzuki's unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagan Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Observer won't load for me this morning so thanks for the bracket breakdown. Really not sure about Suzuki. I think I give him more credit for his shoot-style influence with Pancrase than I do his in-ring work. Fantastic, anachronistic worker but his NOAH run was a flop and he's never had a run on top of NJPW. How was his Triple Crown run received? It's not indefensible but I do think you're seeing New Japan stars wildly over-inflated compared to others.* As far as AJ...what more needs to be said? One of the most remarkable, improbably four year runs ever. In TNA he was one of the best wrestlers of the 2000s but who would have ever expected this path? Wrestling is cool. *The other side of this coin is WWE stars are absurdly degraded as draws because "the company is the draw" or "they don't draw like Austin and the Rock did." I'll bet a million dollars that 10,000 people (since that's the magic number) have paid specifically to see matches with Randy Orton and Edge compete. It's annoying that people treat the WWE like it's the circus and they don't actually advertise guys on top to drive tickets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagan Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 AND - PWInsider reports that Lio Rush has been released. Insert your own [this is what happens when you're really not ready for] joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Hagan said: AND - PWInsider reports that Lio Rush has been released. Insert your own [this is what happens when you're really not ready for] joke. Goddamnit, Lio. I'm sure he'll come back to MCW and whatever else he was doing, but man that is going to be awkward as fuck for awhile. I can only hope that he learned his lesson. With him being so damn young I'm hoping he matures in time and does enough to warrant another look from WWE. If not then he better hope he can make a damn good living outside of it which at least is possible to a degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, Hagan said: AND - PWInsider reports that Lio Rush has been released. Insert your own [this is what happens when you're really not ready for] joke. This be a serve your punishment and we'll either bring you back (Daniel Bryan '10) or you'll never...ever see him back. I'm betting the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 7 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said: Goddamnit, Lio. I'm sure he'll come back to MCW and whatever else he was doing, but man that is going to be awkward as fuck for awhile. I can only hope that he learned his lesson. With him being so damn young I'm hoping he matures in time and does enough to warrant another look from WWE. If not then he better hope he can make a damn good living outside of it which at least is possible to a degree. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I don't know how reliable PWInsider is but they're saying despite what was reported before that Lio hasn't been released. So I'm just going to wait this out until getting the official word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Kazuchika Okada will be inducted his first year eligible into the WON HOF. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Emma vs Lio: The independent blood feud of 2018. (Seriously though, someone book this.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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