Niners Fan in CT Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Trish is also a far better promo then either Charlotte or Paige.. at one point (a low point in WWE but nonetheless) Trish was one of the best heel promos in the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Let's also not forget Trish spending half of her matches pulling her pants up. How could we? I forgot to mention Emma earlier so make that 7th or 8th best for Trish. Once Athena debuts on NXT prime Trish would have real trouble cracking(no pun intended) today's top 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 But only Sasha, Becky and Emma can cut a promo. Asuka has a ton of personality so include her with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonL21 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Trish sure was a helluva seller, though. Plus, she was taking bumps from the men. She sold the choke slam from Kane better than anyone. Gladly, the women today don't have to deal with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Let's also not forget Trish spending half of her matches pulling her pants up. Do you hold that against Samoa Joe too? And I can't believe people can't understand this general argument as a pure hypothetical. No one is saying Trish's body of work is better than Sasha, Asuka, or Bayley. They're saying that if Trish was born 15 years later and came up in the same system, she'd very likely have a much better body of work based on what she was able to do in the early 2000s. It's totally disingenuous to say she would be worse than everyone today without acknowledging how bad most of the girls today would've tanked in 2000. And to be clear, I'm saying the culture surrounding women's wrestling in WWE in 2000 SUCKED. The fact that Trish overcame that culture to the point where we're having a debate about whether or not she was actually good compared to "real" wrestlers in 2016 is what makes her stand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StretchMediatedHypertrophy Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 The fact that Trish overcame that culture to the point where we're having a debate about whether or not she was actually good compared to "real" wrestlers in 2016 is what makes her stand out. That's very clever, I mean that - but you're basically saying that the fact that some people are saying she was that damn good means that she must actually be that damn good, and the naysayers' POV are essentially irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 There's no point in a "past vs. present" debate if both sides of the argument don't acknowledge context. The present is pretty much always going to be undeniably better by present standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 It's only a few years but this really is like comparing baseball players from the 40s to players from the 90s and beyond. Trish came up with no system in place. Yes, she had Finlay as a trainer but she didn't spend a few years at a multimillion dollar facility learning her craft and competing against women with the same drive and work ethic or even women with years of experience under their belt. She had to learn on the fly. She was eventually put in there with Molly and Mickie James and Jazz but that was around 2003 and she retired in 2006 or '07. So we're talking about a 3-year run and to me it was damn impressive what she was able to accomplish in that time. Also, in-ring work isn't the whole story. Are Paige and Charlotte ever going to be able to cut a quality promo? I don't know. I'd agree with placing Sasha and Emma and obviously Asuka above Trish as performers but I'm not willing to say the other two are better just yet and they certainly do not have the body of work that some are arguing.. There were entire debates on this very forum about what's wrong with Charlotte? What's wrong with Paige? Now we're going to pretend those conversations didn't happen.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 There's no point in a "past vs. present" debate if both sides of the argument don't acknowledge context. The present is pretty much always going to be undeniably better by present standards. That's a silly argument, especially on a board like this that recognizes a ton of 70s and 80s dudes as being much better than people today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 That's entirely subjective, no matter what "consensus" there may or may not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Women in 2003/2004 were much bigger stars than the ones today. You can look at some of the Lita/Trish matches and see the entire audience cared, not just the psychos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 You could say the same thing about the men. No one is over with todays audience the only hot WWE crowds are the smark heavy ppvs and NXT shows. I don't think a women's match from that time period ever had a crowd as hot as Sasha vs Bayley from Brooklyn. I also find it interesting how the "psychos" in the NXT audience don't give any love to the women for their looks. They hate Eva, they heeled on Carmella, Alexa was never over as a face, and Becky didn't get over until the Sasha match. I like the fact that women have to do more to get over now than oil up their tits and dance on a table, or wrestle with their thong sticking out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I think the "psychos" refer to the grown ass men wearing "I'm a hugger" shirts and trying to get hugs/headbands/wristbands from Bayley while standing next to little kids. Wisely, Bayley always ignores them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Don't judge me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I thought "psycho" was a direct reference to Hollywood Cibernetico myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zac_Fu Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Trish doesn't have a better brawl than Charlotte/Sasha on NXT TV 7/15/15 IMO, and I have seen those Victoria street fights. I'd put the second match Charlotte had for the title against Nikki Bella, that 7/15/15 Sasha match, and the four-way from TakeOver: Rival up against any three matches Trish has ever had in her career, and I enjoyed the Mickie James match and Lita matches (which I assume are the first three matches that would come to mind for a typical Trish fan) for the spectacle, as well as Trish's heel work against Lita in general. My point being is that you have absolutely fantastic workers in NXT, and they have ridiculously good matches. The problem is that they get hamstrung when they get to the main roster and their matches on Raw/Smackdown/PPV looking considerably weaker. When you had the Women's Division, there was no developmental for them to come up from that was doing anything noticeable so the good and the bad got the same airtime. I'm not taking anything away from NXT, because where women's wrestling is concerned..hell..wrestling in general is concerned it's a far better product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick B. Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Going by this board, "psychos" are just people who don't think EXACTLY like oneself. But oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Going by this board, "psychos" are just people who don't think EXACTLY like oneself. But oh well. Yes Patty that is exactly what I meant. Get some therapy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I really don't see the problem in a male being a big fan of a female wrestler. Calling those fans "psychos" is a bit rude, too. I guess adult male John Cena fans standing next to kids who also happen to be John Cena fans and trying to get his t-shirt or hat or armband that's thrown into the crowd are also psychos? It's when that fandom crosses over into creepy territory that things get weird. Wanting the merch that Bayley (or anyone) gives away to the crowd isn't weird, that's crowd participation. She just happens to be a kid friendly character, like John Cena, so that's why she ignores the adult fans wanting the same thing as the kids in attendance. I, personally, wouldn't wear any of Bayley's merch, because it's fucking embarrassing, but if an adult male at a wrestling show is inclined to show support for his favorite female wrestler... who the fuck cares? Are we now assuming all of the male fans just want to fuck Bayley or something instead of appreciating her skills inside the ring? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm wearing a Bayley shirt right now, so grains of salt... I really don't find her sexually attractive. She's cute, but she's an amazingly endearing character and was in my two favorite matches of 2015. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Now speaking about something that does not inspire violent urges. Eva did not set the world on fire on the main roster. i can't really think of anyone post Sable who got over based on looks without charisma or basic ability in the ring. I probably mentioned this before. But I collect old wrestling magazines. They are fairly cheap, even stuff from the early 70's. One trend I notice is you get letters and occasional columns talking about how womens wrestling is on the verge of being huge. The names change from Wendy Richter to Misty Blue Simms to Madusa/Alundra Blaze to Trish Stratus. The Sable period was interesting because it came across as a genie wish gone horribly wrong. Trish is the closest it ever came to seeming like a big deal like fans wanted. Then Trish retired and WWE tried really hard to replace her with Candice Michelle and Kelly Kelly and it never taking. I don't really see this latest surge taking. AJ Lee got really over because she got to work alongside men, but then she basically refused to put anyone over. She lost the title twice on banana peels and went home. Nikki Bella being champion for 70 years did no one any favors. The stuff with Charlotte might work because Ric Flair gives it some credibility. Are we now assuming all of the male fans just want to fuck Bayley I think that is the safest bet you could make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 You were actually the person I was thinking of when I wrote that, because I remembered you got some of her shirts for Christmas or something. I personally don't care for any of her merch, but I don't see a problem with a male fan wearing that stuff. Or trying to get a hug from Bayley, or her wrist/arm bands. Where's the harm? I mean, I would buy Asuka's new shirt in a heartbeat. And I might, actually. And I would totally try to get a high five or whatever if I went to an NXT show, because I'm a huge fan. EDIT: Vic, that's also the most insulting bet you could take, too. Not all male wrestling fans watch the female talent purely because of their bodies. Some of us can actually ignore that and treat a women's match like a men's match, and not sexualize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 And considering how I spent my Friday night, don't take the psycho comment to heart. Its not like you killed a friendship because someone made fun of Daniel Bryan. Now that would be crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Rippa owns her shirts too, so tread lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 EDIT: Vic, that's also the most insulting bet you could take, too. Not all male wrestling fans watch the female talent purely because of their bodies. Some of us can actually ignore that and treat a women's match like a men's match, and not sexualize it. Anybody who says that is a liar. You can enjoy it but there is a sexual element to it. Trying to ignore that is very unhealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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