FEBRUARY 2024 Wrestling Talk

[AxB]

That King of the Ring was one of the earlier examples of Shawn being publically stroppy and unprofessional. He was making his ring entrance for his first round match and decided to head up to the throne and try the crown on, largely to show everyone that it didn't fit him. His head is only huge metaphorically, and the crown was built for a physically large head.

[Elsalvajeloco]

I would say Shawn starts showing his ass especially when he is rehabbing an injury and does commentary with Vince in late 94. He clearly knows he is best and freshest act in the company by this point (Taker is really over but he's never in anything remotely main event centric and that's weird). And it ain't even close. Being in February 1995, seeing how the arc is (Diesel/Shawn being a long term program and direction), and knowing what happens the night after WrestleMania makes me believe that Shawn seeing Vince doesn't know what the fuck is doing anymore just decided he is going to help steer the ship for Vince.

An addendum: They took Mo off TV for five or so months to do a test run for Mabel as a singles. It just didn't work. He definitely wasn't ready. So from that, how do you pivot to this guy should be going against Diesel? Where I am they've (M.O.M) had one maybe two actual good matches in the damn near two years they've been there. In every case it's been who they've been working with as the reason why it was good. Why the fuck would you pair someone like Mabel who can only work short bursts at a time versus Diesel who needs a Bret or Shawn or Owen to work with and do the real legwork? There is a ton of questionable stuff in WWF at this time regarding creative. 

[Cobra Commander]

so how much of the Bam Bam Bigelow/Kliq heat involves someone like Shawn thinking that the KOTR main event should have been Diesel/HBK as a team instead of Diesel/Bam Bam

[Elsalvajeloco]

26 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

so how much of the Bam Bam Bigelow/Kliq heat involves someone like Shawn thinking that the KOTR main event should have been Diesel/HBK as a team instead of Diesel/Bam Bam

The Shawn/Adam Bomb match just happened (where Shawn beats him really fast and Adam Bomb looks like an idiot) a week prior to where I am so Shawn is already getting "fuck this guy" heat with certain guys.

The booking is just nonsensical in that Shawn/Bam Bam/Diesel are these heels in late 1994. By May 1995, all of them babyfaces for no reason although they had been building Diesel up to turn on Shawn since August 1994. Out of three guys, you can only justify a babyface turn for one of them. Maybe. You can say "well, the Million Dollar Corporation has been in fighting since Survivor Series." Except Tatanka is now anti-over (he's under) cause the Luger program went so long and was so atrocious. Bundy came in and looked pretty bad. How he gets the spot against Taker at WrestleMania... I have no earthly clue. I think Kama is about to join and the Supreme Fighting Machine gimmick doesn't resonate at all. It is a group of not over heels who job in the most important matches.

You can see why the Kliq became powerful. Vince is just mashing buttons hoping for a hit.

 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I would say Shawn starts showing his ass especially when he is rehabbing an injury and does commentary with Vince in late 94. He clearly knows he is best and freshest act in the company by this point (Taker is really over but he's never in anything remotely main event centric and that's weird). And it ain't even close. Being in February 1995, seeing how the arc is (Diesel/Shawn being a long term program and direction), and knowing what happens the night after WrestleMania makes me believe that Shawn seeing Vince doesn't know what the fuck is doing anymore just decided he is going to help steer the ship for Vince.

An addendum: They took Mo off TV for five or so months to do a test run for Mabel as a singles. It just didn't work. He definitely wasn't ready. So from that, how do you pivot to this guy should be going against Diesel? Where I am they've (M.O.M) had one maybe two actual good matches in the damn near two years they've been there. In every case it's been who they've been working with as the reason why it was good. Why the fuck would you pair someone like Mabel who can only work short bursts at a time versus Diesel who needs a Bret or Shawn or Owen to work with and do the real legwork? There is a ton of questionable stuff in WWF at this time regarding creative. 

Mo got injured in a televised match with Owen around that time, landed awkwardly on his knee and they just go straight to the finish.

They did run him as a singles guy which went nowhere, but they also had him tagging with....Typhoon of all people too.

[BloodyChamp]

I’m a huge fan of a certain HBK vs Hogan if you couldn’t guess. HBK was like a cartoon Rambo in that match. He wasn’t a turdhead anymore like Rambo wasn’t a killer anymore. Then somebody actually deserved it came along and tried to fuck with him again and he said hold my beer. I hate that phrase but it’s perfect here lol!

[BloodyChamp]

Legit scary midcard WCW stables were always a thing

[Cobra Commander]

4 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Except Tatanka is now anti-over (he's under) cause the Luger program went so long and was so atrocious

oh yeah, just remembered that Luger lost a KOTR Qualifying match to Yokozuna in 95. The way Luger was booked really should have told them that it was no surprise that Luger was leaving the company

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Mo got injured in a televised match with Owen around that time, landed awkwardly on his knee and they just go straight to the finish.

They did run him as a singles guy which went nowhere, but they also had him tagging with....Typhoon of all people too.

I am sure the injury was a work cause they had Owen go after the injury after he hurt himself. That was a KotR qualifier. So he was gone from May 1994 to October/November.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Cobra Commander said:

oh yeah, just remembered that Luger lost a KOTR Qualifying match to Yokozuna in 95. The way Luger was booked really should have told them that it was no surprise that Luger was leaving the company

I am in February and Gorilla is slickly burying him for giving up offense to Brooklyn Brawler. It's already over for him.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I am sure the injury was a work cause they had Owen go after the injury after he hurt himself. That was a KotR qualifier. So he was gone from May 1994 to October/November.

Yeah it's a strange one - I can see he worked two more house shows after it, but also they're back and forth with USWA both before and after the knee, so he could have been working shows for them and didn't. Also after the heel turn, he was still on TV despite rarely wrestling. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

I think it was one of those cases where we cannot have you wrestling on the house shows and being on tours internationally while telling folks you're hurt. So he got paid to sit at home. Good work if you can get it.

There is also a point, but it's very brief, where Mabel raps himself to the ring and we don't see Oscar for weeks. Then, he magically shows back up. It's all very weird. Mabel rapping is terrible, but Oscar's raps don't even really pop the crowds anymore until he gets to the Whoomp There is It part. 

It's intriguing as a black person watching the ascent of Men on a Mission, Harlem Heat, AND the Gangstas at real time after there being ZERO tag teams that are black of consequence outside of Doom. It's also HILARIOUS watching Booker and Stevie Ray talk about being New Jacks when there is literally a guy named New Jack acting like someone in the film New Jack City. However, I would say if Bruce saw Booker and Stevie Ray in Global and didn't try to get them in WWF, he guessed wrong cause they clearly have improved since 1993. This goes especially that they spent the back quarter of 1994 trying out these crazy ass tag team moves looking for a finisher. All of them MASSACRE these enhancement talent guys giving poor Bobby Heenan a heart attack every time. If someone started doing that now, it would be considered nuts. I am at the week when they finally settle on and introduce Booker doing the Harlem Hangover. They still need help having good matches but at least you can say they have one solid worker in Booker T whereas M.O.M has two guys who need to be carried. I also would estimate they've had a dozen good TV matches once they started to get a push and looked serviceable in the rest. M.O.M has been around for almost two years and giving them credit for two good matches may be being generous. The Gangstas ain't super workers at all, but they are over as a big time heels and New Jack every week is hilarious. The other week when he's making fun of the Armstrong kids was spectacular. 

You can see in the WWF cartoony world that Men on a Mission is so one dimensional and even that one dimension isn't good once Oscar's creativity with raps stopped (this may or may not run parallel to certain present day acts). Mabel shows a tiny bit of promise, but if they're looking for a new Yoko, they probably should have realized that Yoko was around two years and they had to send him somewhere to go get his weight under control. Mabel started out being too big. These two things are happening at the exact same time. Nash ain't great, but he could be hidden with the right talent across the ring and still was very mobile. I can't say that with Mabel because the trial run as a singles didn't work cause he had ZERO important or halfway notable matches. Same when the tag team came back together. They had him do a two man Rumble match (yeah I know) on Raw with Bundy after they both were in the Rumble match and did nothing, and that was hideously bad. He's batting well below the Mendoza line on things he can actually do. I dunno how you can look at any of that and say "title challenger" for one of the major PPVs. They're already at the point where each PPV is doing worse year over year, and we're not talking difference between 1990 and 1992. We're talking last year was low and this year is somehow is even lower. Things look extremely bleak.

[Curt McGirt]

49 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Oscar's raps don't even really pop the crowds anymore until he gets to the Whoomp There is It part.

Is history starting to repeat right now? (Not in the real real shitty way, but in AEW)

[Cobra Commander]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

the ascent of Men on a Mission, Harlem Heat, AND the Gangstas at real time

And two of those 3 teams were billed from Harlem (with the Gangstas from South Central) despite all 6 of the wrestlers being Southerners.

But I guess Booker/Stevie didn't get enough mic time for their Houston-ness to become obvious quick.

[Elsalvajeloco]

As they get more TV time and more time to talk and knowing how black people from certain parts of Houston talk, yeah it should be very obvious immediately. But in the mid 90s it definitely wasn't.

The Gangstas could have been billed from anywhere and garnered the same type of heat. I don't really get the South Central designation. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

40 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Is history starting to repeat right now? (Not in the real real shitty way, but in AEW)

To be fair, I would add the caveat of Men on a Mission started out over when they came in and then progressively got not as over. Then their "solution" was just phase out the sole purpose of why they are over in the first place. It doesn't help Oscar can only do G rated raps while Max Caster can talk about literally anything unless it's too controversial. They can't change it up and more importantly, WWF never took the steps to change it up other than to fire Oscar.

[sabremike]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

As they get more TV time and more time to talk and knowing how black people from certain parts of Houston talk, yeah it should be very obvious immediately. But in the mid 90s it definitely wasn't.

The Gangstas could have been billed from anywhere and garnered the same type of heat. I don't really get the South Central designation. 

The incredible thing is that they went to ECW and by January were essentially huge babyfaces from that point on. If you were making a list of biggest babyfaces in ECW history New Jack is just about at the top of it. If he had not been a complete madman he would've been a huge star because his promos and charisma were off the charts, but it could be argued the fact he was a complete madman made him so believable as being violent and dangerous.

[Elsalvajeloco]

13 minutes ago, sabremike said:

The incredible thing is that they went to ECW and by January were essentially huge babyfaces from that point on. If you were making a list of biggest babyfaces in ECW history New Jack is just about at the top of it. If he had not been a complete madman he would've been a huge star because his promos and charisma were off the charts, but it could be argued the fact he was a complete madman made him so believable as being violent and dangerous.

I dunno know if it's even arguable several years removed and multiple insane shoot interviews later. There is nothing left to dispute. If there is, I would love to see that argument.

But yeah, if SMW wasn't running their shows in those places, they probably would have been babyfaces there. If New Jack called Scott and Steve Armstrong "Sleepy", "Dopey", etc. now, that's a babyface pop. It also helps them that they're coming out to an energetic songs like "Can't Truss It" while mostly everyone in Smoky Mountain has this generic safe song choice from some classic rock station. I am trying to remove all the bias I have as a black person, but you can tell in early 95 there is a ton of sameness in Smoky Mountain. Unfortunately, the promise of delivering wrestling the way you like it or whatever tagline Cornette was using doesn't really work if there isn't variety. There is just too much overlap when WCW, WWF, and certainly ECW as the hottest North American promotion are more colorful and diverse. Smothers, DWB, RnR, and some of the other acts are solid or more than solid, but they running out of ways to insert folks like Lawler and this and that person coming in for one shot. Eddie Gilbert comes in for a quick sec to introduce Unabomb but apparently skipped town after one taping cycle. The last episode I watched where he gets fired off camera was the day he passed away. If it wasn't for the Gangstas, I probably would watch USWA or Lucha and puroresu from that time than Smoky Mountain.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think it was one of those cases where we cannot have you wrestling on the house shows and being on tours internationally while telling folks you're hurt. So he got paid to sit at home. Good work if you can get it.

There is also a point, but it's very brief, where Mabel raps himself to the ring and we don't see Oscar for weeks. Then, he magically shows back up. It's all very weird. Mabel rapping is terrible, but Oscar's raps don't even really pop the crowds anymore until he gets to the Whoomp There is It part. 

It's intriguing as a black person watching the ascent of Men on a Mission, Harlem Heat, AND the Gangstas at real time after there being ZERO tag teams that are black of consequence outside of Doom. It's also HILARIOUS watching Booker and Stevie Ray talk about being New Jacks when there is literally a guy named New Jack acting like someone in the film New Jack City. However, I would say if Bruce saw Booker and Stevie Ray in Global and didn't try to get them in WWF, he guessed wrong cause they clearly have improved since 1993. This goes especially that they spent the back quarter of 1994 trying out these crazy ass tag team moves looking for a finisher. All of them MASSACRE these enhancement talent guys giving poor Bobby Heenan a heart attack every time. If someone started doing that now, it would be considered nuts. I am at the week when they finally settle on and introduce Booker doing the Harlem Hangover. They still need help having good matches but at least you can say they have one solid worker in Booker T whereas M.O.M has two guys who need to be carried. I also would estimate they've had a dozen good TV matches once they started to get a push and looked serviceable in the rest. M.O.M has been around for almost two years and giving them credit for two good matches may be being generous. The Gangstas ain't super workers at all, but they are over as a big time heels and New Jack every week is hilarious. The other week when he's making fun of the Armstrong kids was spectacular. 

You can see in the WWF cartoony world that Men on a Mission is so one dimensional and even that one dimension isn't good once Oscar's creativity with raps stopped (this may or may not run parallel to certain present day acts). Mabel shows a tiny bit of promise, but if they're looking for a new Yoko, they probably should have realized that Yoko was around two years and they had to send him somewhere to go get his weight under control. Mabel started out being too big. These two things are happening at the exact same time. Nash ain't great, but he could be hidden with the right talent across the ring and still was very mobile. I can't say that with Mabel because the trial run as a singles didn't work cause he had ZERO important or halfway notable matches. Same when the tag team came back together. They had him do a two man Rumble match (yeah I know) on Raw with Bundy after they both were in the Rumble match and did nothing, and that was hideously bad. He's batting well below the Mendoza line on things he can actually do. I dunno how you can look at any of that and say "title challenger" for one of the major PPVs. They're already at the point where each PPV is doing worse year over year, and we're not talking difference between 1990 and 1992. We're talking last year was low and this year is somehow is even lower. Things look extremely bleak

I can understand why they chose Mabel given the issues lingering of the steroid trial and I suspect he was working cheap. 

But also it just feels like a rehash of Yokozuna who is still prominently featured on the midcard.

I think they massively dropped the ball on a Scott Hall heel turn around here. 

[DMN]

5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

As they get more TV time and more time to talk and knowing how black people from certain parts of Houston talk, yeah it should be very obvious immediately. But in the mid 90s it definitely wasn't.

The Gangstas could have been billed from anywhere and garnered the same type of heat. I don't really get the South Central designation. 

They're a tag team largely based on shit like NWA and movies like Colors and Boyz in tha Hood, and the whole public idea of a 'black street gang' is tied into the Bloods and Crips with is also heavily tied to Los Angeles. Admittedly, I'm from Los Angeles, so I'm biased, but it doesn't really make sense for them to be from anywhere else. It was an attempt to add credibility, just like it was for Public Enemy.

Also, in Smokey Mountain, California is easy cheap heat, too. They wouldn't need it, because New Jack is like, the perfect heel for SMW, but it didn't hurt. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

6 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

But yeah, if SMW wasn't running their shows in those places, they probably would have been babyfaces there. If New Jack called Scott and Steve Armstrong "Sleepy", "Dopey", etc. now, that's a babyface pop. It also helps them that they're coming out to an energetic songs like "Can't Truss It" while mostly everyone in Smoky Mountain has this generic safe song choice from some classic rock station. I am trying to remove all the bias I have as a black person, but you can tell in early 95 there is a ton of sameness in Smoky Mountain. Unfortunately, the promise of delivering wrestling the way you like it or whatever tagline Cornette was using doesn't really work if there isn't variety. There is just too much overlap when WCW, WWF, and certainly ECW as the hottest North American promotion are more colorful and diverse. Smothers, DWB, RnR, and some of the other acts are solid or more than solid, but they running out of ways to insert folks like Lawler and this and that person coming in for one shot. Eddie Gilbert comes in for a quick sec to introduce Unabomb but apparently skipped town after one taping cycle. The last episode I watched where he gets fired off camera was the day he passed away. If it wasn't for the Gangstas, I probably would watch USWA or Lucha and puroresu from that time than Smoky Mountain.

SMW is the perfect example of Cornette's booking philosophy - "well by golly, it used to work, give it to 'em again!"

This is the same guy that thought running Rock 'n' Roll vs Midnights for six years straight was a great concept, and his new great concept was running Rock 'n' Roll vs Midnight with a new coat of paint. We're asking for a bit much to ask for variance.

[Greggulator]

In the 90s, the only place where you could bill a team of black gang members from and have them feel legitimate would either be South Central or Compton. Early 90s had the LA Riots and then Death Row took over pop culture for a while.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 hours ago, DMN said:

They're a tag team largely based on shit like NWA and movies like Colors and Boyz in tha Hood, and the whole public idea of a 'black street gang' is tied into the Bloods and Crips with is also heavily tied to Los Angeles. Admittedly, I'm from Los Angeles, so I'm biased, but it doesn't really make sense for them to be from anywhere else. It was an attempt to add credibility, just like it was for Public Enemy.

Also, in Smokey Mountain, California is easy cheap heat, too. They wouldn't need it, because New Jack is like, the perfect heel for SMW, but it didn't hurt. 

 

1 hour ago, Greggulator said:

In the 90s, the only place where you could bill a team of black gang members from and have them feel legitimate would either be South Central or Compton. Early 90s had the LA Riots and then Death Row took over pop culture for a while.

I think I may have a little bit too precise. LOL.

It's kinda understood if you have a mafia gimmick that everyone doesn't have to be from Sicily. They don't have be the Black Hand. Literally pick a city on the map in the United States. Let's just stay in the region. There is Inglewood, Pomona, Pasadena, Long Beach. Snoop would have already been around repping Long Beach as this was when he was really hot and already gotten into legal trouble. IIRC Jack shouted him out in one of his promos. 

Yeah, the clothing and style is Colors, Boys in the Hood, and Menace II Society. However, they incorporated a lot of black nationalism especially with Farrakhan and anti NAACP rhetoric that was on TV on Donahue and other talk shows. They are heavy on the Malcolm X imagery.  The latter I understand cause the Spike Lee movie came out around that time, but how much of that is from those coming of age in LA movies? None of that. A lot of that was Cornette trying to incorporate anything he knew about black people and what Corny and Mr. Pop Culture Bruce Prichard would have been watching on TV. New Jack, being from Atlanta, is attacking it like a black Baptist preacher from the south based on his speech patterns. They are also coming out to New York rap at a time black folks from LA had their own music and weren't really fucking with New York rap like that. PE was probably the exception but if that is the gimmick then walk the gimmick.

[Curt McGirt]

They had to be from LA because of the riots. The Rock'n'Rolls getting beat down was a direct nod to Rodney King. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

They had to be from LA because of the riots. The Rock'n'Rolls getting beat down was a direct nod to Rodney King. 

You mean Reginald Denny? They didn't have to be from LA to do that. 

Most of their attitude wasn't Los Angeles centric. That's my point. It would be like taking a slice of Pizza Hut and saying, "yup, this is straight from the heart of Brooklyn." Yeah, it's still pizza but it certainly ain't from Brooklyn. But I mean that's where all pizza is made right...Brooklyn? No one else makes pizza.

I mean black people been in the country since 1619 but apparently tag team wrestling in 1995 tells you they only reside in Harlem or South Central. All 30 million+ of us were just in those two places magically.