2015 HOF Thread

[Tabe]

Re: Sheffield - You gotta admire a guy with the balls to come out and say "Yeah, I tanked to get out of town" like Sheff did regarding the end of his time in Milwaukee.  I mean, Randy Johnson did the same thing but Sheff admitted it.

[OSJ]

Well, if I had a ballot...

 

Bonds

McGwire

Clemens (Even though I hate the guy)

Johnson (Hate him even more than Clemens; I've met the guy and he's every bit the surly jerk that you might expect. He was downright nasty to a kid at a cardstore when there were a total of five people on the premises. The kid was polite, respectful and Johnson just blew him off and then started berating the shop owner about prices, having no understanding that a 1970 Willie Mays is nowhere near as valuable as a McCovey rookie. His argument was that Mays was a better player so the card should be worth more than the McCovey. What a complete douche nozzle. He also found fault with the pricing of a Fleer Joe Adcock, which is one way to really get on my fighting side.)

Smoltz

Biggio

Piazza

Bagwell

Trammell

Sosa

 

Guess what? I don't give a shit who was or wasn't sticking a needle in their ass. You can't tell me that if the stuff had been available in 1910 that Cobb, Speaker, Collins and all the rest wouldn't have been happily juicing.

[Joe Lucia]

Someone tell Tabe it's not 1985 anymore. .285/29/99 for the 2000s is HotVG. Also, "and before that he was decent" is not an argument for why a player belongs in the Hall.

 

You're right, it's not.

 

The league hit .251/.315/.386 this year.

They hit .257/.323/.391 in 1985.

 

And if you want to break it down solely to third basemen..

 

.258/.318/.396 this year.

.264/.330/.411 in 1985.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I'm not sure if now is the time to go on my annual Bonds rant. I guess I'll wait until the actual vote but the HOF loses any credibility it may have had by not having the greatest player ever in it.

[Kuetsar]

I'm not sure if now is the time to go on my annual Bonds rant. I guess I'll wait until the actual vote but the HOF loses any credibility it may have had by not having the greatest player ever in it.

But Ruth is already in. . .  

[Niners Fan in CT]

The era Ruth played in looked like a Men's softball league though I'm pretty sure my town does allow all races to participate.

[BobbyWhioux]

Isn't 3B severely under-represented relative to the rest of the diamond?

[evilwaldo]

I'm not sure if now is the time to go on my annual Bonds rant. I guess I'll wait until the actual vote but the HOF loses any credibility it may have had by not having the greatest player ever in it.

But Ruth is already in. . .  

...and Hank Aaron.

[Kuetsar]

 

 

I'm not sure if now is the time to go on my annual Bonds rant. I guess I'll wait until the actual vote but the HOF loses any credibility it may have had by not having the greatest player ever in it.

But Ruth is already in. . .  

...and Hank Aaron.

 

 

The era Ruth played in looked like a Men's softball league though I'm pretty sure my town does allow all races to participate.

Bonds still needed a needle in his ass to pass the numbers. . . 

[Kuetsar]

 

 

I'm not sure if now is the time to go on my annual Bonds rant. I guess I'll wait until the actual vote but the HOF loses any credibility it may have had by not having the greatest player ever in it.

But Ruth is already in. . .  

...and Hank Aaron.

 

Aaron tends to be underrated, though his numbers hold up against anyone. I put Ruth ahead only because of his pitching record. . .

[OSJ]

Okay, while I certainly didn't see Ruth play, what he did was astonishing at the time. Consider how long his record for single HRs stood! My earliest memory of baseball was the Mantle/Maris chase that Maris finally won. It was a HUGE deal.

 

Now Hank Aaron... Consider that I am a lifelong Braves fan and for me Mathews/Aaron/Adcock was the Holy Trinity when I was a kid. All the other kids thought Mickey Mantle would wind up with the most career HRs, I just smiled and said I figured that Mathews and Aaron would pass him. (Okay, I was half right). Aaron may have been the best RF of all-time. An excellent defensive player and an absolute terror at the plate. However, he also had the luxury of spending most of his career in the middle of what may have been the best power trio of the 1950s & 1960s. I mean are you going to walk Mathews to pitch to Hank? Not bloody likely. Are you going to put a guy with Aaron's speed on base and take a chance pitching to Bazooka Joe? Again, not bloody likely.

 

For a lot of his career Barry Bonds didn't have that sort of protection in the line-up. It is a measure of how feared a hitter he was that a guy with his speed was walked so often. I'm not a big fan of the stolen base, but Barry was not a guy that you wanted on first, but it was better than letting him knock one out of the park. I've watched a lot of great hitters starting back in '62 when I was only five. I've seen the complete careers of many HOFrs, and I never seen anyone, Hank Aaron included that matches Barry Bonds as a consummate hitter. He wasn't a one-dimensional power guy like McGwire, a lot of folks forget that he was a consistent threat for total bases. Bonds did it all and he did it better than anyone else in my lifetime. If that isn't a HOFr, I don't know what is. The argument of Bonds vs. Ruth has two major points. #1 Ruth did not play against the best of his generation, he played against only those with pale skin. #2 When you factor in that Ruth was a holy terror as a pitcher, you have a very compelling argument for GOAT. The question is does the positive of #2 out weigh the negative of #1? It's very hard to answer... Had the gates been opened to all players were there enough truly great black players at the time to tip the scales? That's a really tough question to answer because none of us were there. We can read reports of how great Josh Gibson was, but how great were the pitcher she faced? How many of them would have made it in the majors? Remember this was way before expansion when even guys like Joe Hauser (who hit over 60 HRs TWICE in AAA) could lose their jobs in the majors. Think about that for a second, a guy that was good enough to pound out hits like that in an era when AAA was almost as good as the majors, lost his job and could never make it back to the show. (Granted, he lost his job to Jimmie Foxx, but still, you see my point; there weren't that many roster spots available and only the best could make it in the majors.)

 

So, Bonds or Ruth? An interesting question.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Hundreds of players including many pitchers took steroids or some sort of performance enhancers. How many of them put up the Home Run per at-bat and on-base/slugging numbers that Bonds produced?

How many of them won 3 MVP awards in the early 90's? How many of them are in the 500/500 club?

He is the greatest of all time.

[Tabe]

C'mon OSJ, you throw a challenge my way and now you don't respond? Boooo.

[OSJ]

Oh, sorry... The Dick Allen thing... I thought I had responded, guess not. Okay, I'm not going to roll out a full Keltner list, but will use some key questions:

 

1. Was he the best player in the game? No one outside of Philadelphia has ever suggested that Dick Allen was the best player in the game.

2. Was he the best player in his league? Maybe for one year when he picked up the MVP.

3. Was he the best player at his position ever or during the time that he played. No, and no.

4. Was he valuable to his teams after his peak? No, Dick Allen basically was taken out by injuries during his peak. Absent the injuries, he was likely headed to 500/2500 and would definitely have been considered a HOFr. The problem is, we have to evaluate him on what he actually did, not what we think he might've done. I can say with all sincerity that Tony Conigliaro was heading for the HOF before his terrible injury.  The fact is, that we'll never really know what he might've done. Dick Allen was an awesome hitter and okay fielder, but his career is really short. (I know, there are other guys in the HOF that had really short careers like Ralph Kiner, but I never buy in to the so and so is in so why not so and so.)

 

Now here's the thing, one of the best ways to evaluate a player beyond raw statistics is contemporary thoughts. I got to watch Dick Allen's entire career, granted, I was a kid and he retired when I was in my teens, but I've been a baseball geek my entire life. During his career and after it, no one, and I mean no one ever suggested that he was a HOFr. Racism? Perhaps. Ignorance of the "hidden game"? Not likely, Allen's stats speak for themselves pretty clearly. Even leaving aside the reputation (which as Tabe points out may be largely undeserved), there's not much there, there. An awesome hitter with a really short career. I think he falls short of the HOF, given another three or four years without injury he'd be a no-brainer, but we can't consider might have beens. I think Albert Belle has a much better case and while Allen wouldn't be a totally embarrassing selection, his induction wouldn't be doing the HOF any favors either.

[Tabe]

Allen had 11 years as an elite hitter. That's twice as long a stretch as Koufax had as an elite pitcher. Obviously that's not a great comparison since Koufax was a lot better but the short elite career precedent is established. Same with Puckett. Does 3 more average years make Allen a better player? No. He had the career that Jim Rice's supporters (wrongly) said Rice had. Again, career OPS+ of 156. Every guy ahead of him is in the HOF. He belongs.

[OSJ]

Okay, you yourself say that the Koufax comparison is bogus. Here's a thing to consider about Sandy, not only was he a great pitcher, he played in a major market and dare I say it, he was the biggest Jewish hero since Hank Greenberg. I'm not saying that he doesn't belong in the HOF, he does, but let's acknowledge the extenuating factors.

 

Jim Rice really doesn't belong, his H/R splits are laughable. He was really Chuck Klein with more power.

 

Okay, every guy with a better OPS+ is in the HOF...Or is that right? Let's look at Adjusted OPS+, Allen is behind such luminaries as Pete Browning and Dave Orr; he's also behind Albert Pujols. In fifteen years, this awesome slugger hit 40 HRS exactly once. Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but for his era I would have expected a bit more than one MVP season and one really awesome year (and no, they weren't the same year.) Marginal at best.

[Tabe]

I ignored Pete Browning and Dave Orr since they're 19th century guys who had short careers.

I'm not sure being behind Albert Pujols offensively is a knock on anybody.

Just one 40 HR season? From 1971-77, NO ONE hit 40 in the AL. Plus, he played in Chicago. If he was in another park, he's over 40 easily.

[OSJ]

Well, this would be a compelling argument if in fact we were talking about the 1970s, Allen had his 40 HR season in 1966 when hitting 40 was expected of power hitters. The next year he wasn't in the top ten, the following year he came in behind such memorable sluggers as Hawk Harrelson, Willie Horton, and Frank Howard. From 1968-1971 he wasn't in the top ten, taking a back seat to the likes of Reggie Smith, Norm Cash, Willie Montanez, and the always dreaded Nate Colbert. 1972 he tied with Billy Williams, posting a respectable 37, leading his league, but still coming in behind Colbert and Johnny Bench.

1973: Off the map, with guys like Jeff Burroughs and Sal Bando and the aging Frank Robinson leading the league along with Reggie Jackson.

1974: Allen leads his league tying with the always terrifying Jimmy Wynn who hit 32 in the NL, behind Schmidt and Bench.

 

Cherry picking the weak years of the AL is really sort of suspect when a mere two years later Jim Rice hit 46.

 

No, coming up short to Albert Pujols is hardly a knock, but I'm not really buying the "elite hitter" for over a decade argument. I'll buy damn good most of the time and perhaps great fo0r two or three seasons, but that's really not enough IMO.

 

Another point, I realize that Baseball-Reference comparisons can sometimes be goofy, but of the top ten for Dick Allen, not a single one is in the HOF, not a one. Also, during his initial period of eligibility he never broke 20% with the voters. Now, I know the BBWA can be pretty obtuse at times, but when you weigh in contemporary opinions. No one ever suggested that Dick Allen was a HOFr during his playing career, the top ten comparisons (which are difficult because Allen bounced around at different positions), and the lackluster performance during his initial period of eligibility and the season by season breakdown and I'm just not seeing anything more than Hall of the Very Good.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

Until Don Mattingly is inducted the Hall has no credibility.  I'm going to skip the inductions again this year and go to the Pro Wrestling HOF in Schenectady instead, y'all should join me.

[Tabe]

Don Mattingly has no case. None.

[Brian Fowler]

http://regressing.deadspin.com/barry-bonds-was-an-alien-god-who-destroyed-space-time-t-1610228611

 

But hey, the HoPnaGaBB can carry on.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Who wants to see 55,000 Yankee fans give Barry Lamar a standing ovation? Remember it like it was yesterday.

[Brian Fowler]

It's insane how fast that ball gets from his bat to the upper deck.

[OSJ]

Mike: I invite you back to a serious baseball discussion and you give us Don Mattingly? Really? Really? Please make a case for his induction leaving out such nonsense as what he might've done with five or more years added to his career. Based on what he actually accomplished, exactly what is his claim to be enshrined among the greats. And none of that, "he's a nice guy and there are worse players in." That shit don't fly round these parts. ;-)

[DangerMark]

http://regressing.deadspin.com/barry-bonds-was-an-alien-god-who-destroyed-space-time-t-1610228611

 

But hey, the HoPnaGaBB can carry on.

 

Following on from a video linked in the article: How many did he actually send into the Cove, and more importantly, how many hall of famers hit fewer total home runs than Barry Bonds hit into the sea?

 

EDIT: Wikipedia has the answer: 35. The rest of San Fransisco have hit 33, and the rest of the Majors have hit 38.