2015 HOF Thread

[EdA]

Oh far too lazy and stupid to do a poll for this.

 

The Golden Era Vets committee named 10 nominees for induction:  Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Bob Howsam, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce, Luis Tiant and Maury Wills.

 

Personally, I am all about Bob Howsam.  I'd be more than fine with Kaat and Minoso too.  But Howsam should have been in a long time ago.  And yes, it does pain me so that I have to hope Joe Morgan talks sense into people.

[Kuetsar]

Oh far too lazy and stupid to do a poll for this.

 

The Golden Era Vets committee named 10 nominees for induction:  Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Bob Howsam, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce, Luis Tiant and Maury Wills.

 

Personally, I am all about Bob Howsam.  I'd be more than fine with Kaat and Minoso too.  But Howsam should have been in a long time ago.  And yes, it does pain me so that I have to hope Joe Morgan talks sense into people.

 

Oh far too lazy and stupid to do a poll for this.

 

The Golden Era Vets committee named 10 nominees for induction:  Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Bob Howsam, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce, Luis Tiant and Maury Wills.

 

Personally, I am all about Bob Howsam.  I'd be more than fine with Kaat and Minoso too.  But Howsam should have been in a long time ago.  And yes, it does pain me so that I have to hope Joe Morgan talks sense into people.

None of them probably should get in, as I think they all fall into the very good, or great, but not HOF level. If they put in Tiant and Oliva, I wouldn't argue too much, maybe Kaat, but not the rest. Hodges especially seems to be overrated. . . and fuck Mr Publicity Stunt, Minoso. . .

[odessasteps]

On that list, i would off the top of my head vote for kaat oliva and tiant.

[Tabe]

Gut reaction was that none of them belong.  Thinking about it a little harder, Dick Allen belongs.  Career OPS+ of 156.  156.  He was an elite hitter for 11 years and a good hitter in a 12th.  That's enough, IMHO.  The rest miss the cut, I think.  I could live with Ken Boyer and Bob Howsam.  Hodges, Minoso, Kaat, Pierce, et al?  No.

[EdA]

I defend Howsam with this - he was the GM of the Cards until the beginning of '67 and put the pieces in place that moved the Cards from the 64 team to the 67-68 teams.  

 

In '67 he jumped to Cincy and put the missing pieces together to build the Big Red Machine in the 70s (namely the Joe Morgan trade).  He also basically took over the front office in Cincy in the early-80's to oversee things when they rebuilt to get the core together for the 90 WS team.

 

He was also pretty key in getting a team in Colorado.  OK, maybe that counts against him.  Who can be sure?

 

(I will pretend that he had no part in creating the Denver Broncos, though.  I can only go so far.)

 

Even if you give him no credit for 90 and only partial credit for 67, that's still just as good job as John Schuerholz - and people want to kill to put him in the HOF.

 

Now, if you want to argue GM's shouldn't go in, I am fine with that.  But the cork on that bottle was removed years ago.  I personally can live without GM's in the HOF.  But if you're gonna, there is no reason to keep Howsam out.

[OSJ]

I'd be fine with Ken Boyer, a great 3B who I remember as a little kid. He just had the misfortune to play at the same time as Eddie Mathews. It wouldn't demean the HOF if Tiant and Kaat went in, but neither really merits it.

 

Dick Allen is a joke of a candidate. There is no player who did more to keep his teams from winning then Dick Allen. I liked him when he was active as he was a rebel. Now, I realize that he was just a drunken malcontent who spread poison wherever he went. If we look at the stats, he's quite similar to Albert Belle (who should be in), the difference is that Belle was a surly prick off the field, but a winner on it. Dick Allen was out for himself and only himself. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. I am astounded that the gentleman from Eastern Washington, who I'm usually in lockstep with on all things baseball would champion his induction. Maybe he's more forgiving than I am, but he's probably the biggest case of one of my heroes having feet of clay that I can think of. Mantle and Mathews were a couple of fun-loving drunks and were a total embarrassment when I met them, but there was no malice involved. Dick Allen was a malicious prick. Please note, I am not advocating keeping Allen out for off-field antics, I advocate keeping him out for torpedoing his teams with his petty feuds. That's something, but a HOFr it ain't. People hated The Rajah, but he made mediocre teams winners. Barry Bonds was no pleasure to socialize with, but he played to win. If you asked Bonds to lay down a sac bunt, he'd do it in a NY minute. If you asked Dick Allen for a sac fly to advance the runner you were a "racist" for suggesting such a thing. Again, fuck Dick Allen.

[EdA]

Hey, John - Since I don't trust defensive stats and Boyer's offensive stats are just there...did you watch Boyer and think HOFer?  I am just asking.  I'm not in love with the idea of Boyer in.  And to be honest, I don't see a ton of difference between Boyer, Graig Nettles and even Buddy Bell other than Nettles had power and Bell was the least of them as an offensive player.  I can honestly live without any of them in, but if Boyer or Nettles gets in I think it makes things easier for Beltre when he is eligible.  Then again, I'd probably just prefer Darrell Evans getting in to grease the skids for Beltre, but he's not in this debate.

 

I am also indifferent to Tiant, Kaat and even Tommy John.  I don't lose sleep with them being out but I wouldn't be upset if they made it in.

 

And having not lived through the Dick Allen days - or at least having no recollection of him - I'll let others argue the Allen as cancer issue.  My thing is that he just doesn't really have the big numbers or longevity that I would like out of a slugger.  

[OSJ]

Hey Ed,

 

You got to consider that I was a little kid when Boyer played. However, I have a really good memory, (even if I remember stuff that never happened, like Joe Adcock managing the Angels). Boyer wasn't even the best defensive 3B in his family, Cletus was better. However, Boyer had power and nearly hit 300HRs in an era when 300 was a big deal. He was an excellent defensive player, but both he and his brother suffered from having superior players at the position in their respective leagues. Mathews in the NL and Brooks in the AL. Both of them did all the things the Boyers did and did them better. However, I do think that Ken Boyer probably should have gone in before guys like Pie Traynor and George Kell. 3B has always been a hybrid position, teams need a great glove out there and they want a guy that can hit and hit for power at the hot corner. Boyer was pretty clearly the #2 at his position in his league during the time he played. Is that a HOFr? I think so.

[Tabe]

Regarding Ken Boyer:

 

He was a Gold Glover - winning 5 of them in a 6-year stretch - and would give you .300/25/95 every year at the plate.  That's an elite 3B.  He didn't have the power Mathews had but was a better fielder, hit for higher average, and won an MVP.  Was Mathews better?  Yep.  But the gulf ain't huge.  The case against Boyer is that he was a top player for 9 years.  That's good but is it great?  Probably not.

[EdA]

HAH.  I laugh if only because up through a certain era everyone was told as a kid that Pie Traynor was the greatest 3B ever...ignoring Mathews and (in my case) mid-career Schmidt.  It's almost as if Schmidt single-handedly destroyed the Traynor myth and now everyone is pissing over it - not that I think that is awful.  I am merely amused at how far Traynor has fallen.

 

I dunno, I have never been aboard the Boyer train, but the more I look at him in the context of his era, the more I appreciate him.  The HOF has historically shown it's had no clue how to evaluate 3B so if Boyer gets in helps Beltre's cause, I would be OK.  Just the same, I am not gaga over Boyer.  Then again, I AM gaga over Howsam and no one else is, so what do I know?

[Tabe]

As for Dick Allen, I admittedly am basically ignoring his "cancer" status.  I was too young to be aware of him when he was still playing and haven't heard much about him other than "he was an asshole".  Well, he was an asshole that could HIT. 

 

Consider:

 

- one of the all-time great rookie seasons in 1964.  .318/29/91, leading the league with 352 total bases.  OPS+ of 162.  No, that's not a Mike Trout/Ted Williams/Albert Pujols rookie season but it's really good.

- he was the absolute best hitter in baseball in 1972.  You could make a case for Billy Williams but Allen played in a much tougher park (Comiskey vs Wrigley) while putting up the same numbers.

- led the league in OBP twice

- led the league in slugging three times

- led the league in OPS four times

- led the league in OPS+ three times, including a high of 199 in 1972

- rookie of the year in 1964

- MVP in 1972

- during the famous Phillies collapse of 1964, Allen hit .438 with 5 doubles, 2 triples, 3 home runs and 11 RBI in those last twelve games

- career OPS+ of 156.

 

One of the knocks on Allen are that his career was short.  That's a fair assessment.  However, his career was short due to injury, no different than Sandy Koufax or Kirby Puckett.  Allen was an elite hitter right up until breaking his leg in 1973 and even after that.  In the end, he played 14 years in the majors (ignoring 1963) and was an elite hitter pretty much the entire time.

 

The other knock on Allen is that he was a "cancer" and "locker room lawyer".  At least some of that stems from where he was playing - Philly wasn't black-man-friendly in the 60s.  Some of it stems from a famous fight with Frank Thomas that led to Thomas - a white player - being immediately released.  Allen was ordered not to talk about the issue and was perceived as costing a white player his job.  Every witness (other than Thomas), however, puts the blame on Thomas and Thomas actually swung a bat at Allen.  Allen's managers - Chuck Tanner  and Gene Mauch - both sing his praises.  In answer to whether Allen was a negative influence on the Phillies, Mauch said "Never".  In describing Allen, Tanner said "Dick was the leader of our team, the captain, the manager on the field. He took care of the young kids, took them under his wing. And he played every game as if it was his last day on earth".  Goose Gossage said Allen worked with him to learn about the league's hitters, making him a more effective reliever.  Stan Bahnsen, another pitcher teammate, called Allen "the ultimate team guy".  Mike Schmidt, a HOFer not afraid to criticize other players, said of Allen "The truth is that Dick never divided any clubhouse".  In his one season with the Cardinals, Allen made a believer of manager Red Schoendienst, converting him from not wanting Allen at all to not wanting him to be traded or let go and that his attitude "was never a problem".

 

Having said that, there's no doubt that Allen had issues of his own doing.  He got suspended for missing a doubleheader and left the White Sox 2 weeks before the end of the 1974 season because of a feud with Ron Santo.  Those things are inexcusable.

 

In the end, however, we're left with a guy with a terrible reputation that's probably mostly undeserved.  His own teammates and managers say his attitude was not a problem, that he was a winner, and that he played balls-out for them.  He was an elite hitter for over a decade - a longer run of greatness than Sandy Koufax - and has the highest OPS+ of any guy not in the HOF not named Bonds or McGwire.  

 

He belongs in the HOF.

 

p.s. One thing OSJ and I definitely agree on - Albert Belle belongs in the HOF.  But that's another discussion.

[Kuetsar]

HAH.  I laugh if only because up through a certain era everyone was told as a kid that Pie Traynor was the greatest 3B ever...ignoring Mathews and (in my case) mid-career Schmidt.  It's almost as if Schmidt single-handedly destroyed the Traynor myth and now everyone is pissing over it - not that I think that is awful.  I am merely amused at how far Traynor has fallen.

 

I dunno, I have never been aboard the Boyer train, but the more I look at him in the context of his era, the more I appreciate him.  The HOF has historically shown it's had no clue how to evaluate 3B so if Boyer gets in helps Beltre's cause, I would be OK.  Just the same, I am not gaga over Boyer.  Then again, I AM gaga over Howsam and no one else is, so what do I know?

People tend to forget too. Tris Speaker was considered the greatest CF of all time(and a better player than Ruth), until Willie Mays came along(or Dimaggio). And as for 3rd base, Brooks Robinson deserves a mention, even if his offensive numbers were no where near Schmidts. . . 

[Tabe]

 

I am also indifferent to Tiant, Kaat and even Tommy John.  I don't lose sleep with them being out but I wouldn't be upset if they made it in.

 

Tiant is a guy who had some great years - he had a ridiculous year in 1968 that absolutely no one remembers (21-9, 1.60 ERA, 264 K in 258 IP).  He didn't even get a single vote for the Cy Young cuz some guy named McLain won 31 games.  Tiant had a couple other 20-win seasons and led the league in ERA one other time.  And that's all good.  Problem is, he also had plenty of years where he was terrible.  He followed up 1968 by giving up 37 homers in 1969, finishing with a 9-20 record.  He had four seasons with an ERA over 4.00 in a time when that was just atrocious.  He finished with 229 wins and a 3.30 ERA.  Those are both fine stats but nothing special for his era.

 

Jim Kaat - this is a guy that's really completely forgettable.  If he wasn't an announcer, nobody would remember him despite the 283 wins.  He played forever, which is all well and good, but he wasn't great for, well, hardly any of that time.  He had some good years in the 60s (25-13, 2.75 ERA in 1966) but nothing that really stood out.  By the standards of his era, he put up solid numbers for a top starter but nothing great.  If you named the top starters in the AL in the 1960s, Jim Kaat's name wasn't going to come up.  Not when Denny McLain, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Jim Lonborg, Dean Chance, and others were active.  After the 60s, his career is basically a great half-season in 1972, two good - but not great - years in the mid-70s and a whole bunch of mediocre or terrible years.  This is basically a guy that hung around forever, putting up a nice win total and that's about it.  Oh yeah, he won a whole bunch of Gold Gloves.  Whoopdeedoo.

 

Tommy John - Another guy who put up some good, but not great, years.  He hung around forever, had some good years in the 60s, won a bunch of games a couple years with the Yankees, but was never great.  Never won any awards, never led the league in anything that mattered, and was generally just a good hand for a long time.  In my HOF, you gotta be elite for at least a little while to get in.  Tommy never was.  Now, if you wanna make the argument that Tommy should go in because of the surgery* named after him, I'd listen to that argument.  But as a player, and only a player, no.  Heck no.

 

* - Frank Jobe should be in the HOF.  His work on Tommy and a whole host of other guys has changed baseball more than just about any other person.  

[Tabe]

And as for 3rd base, Brooks Robinson deserves a mention, even if his offensive numbers were no where near Schmidts. . . 

 

No, he really doesn't.  His defense was amazing - the best ever - but it wasn't SO much better than Schmidt's that it offsets the giant gap between him and Schmidt at the plate.  People forget that Schmidt was a GREAT defensive 3B.  So, no, Brooks doesn't deserve a mention as the best 3B of all-time unless we're strictly talking defense.

[Tabe]

Oh, and as for the mentions of Adrian Beltre...in my eyes, he's a no-brainer HOFer.  I don't think he'll get in, which is a shame.  But he's absolutely a no-brainer if you spend more than 5 seconds looking at his career.

[EdA]

Oh, and as for the mentions of Adrian Beltre...in my eyes, he's a no-brainer HOFer.  I don't think he'll get in, which is a shame.  But he's absolutely a no-brainer if you spend more than 5 seconds looking at his career.

I think Beltre has a pretty good shot now and really looks to hit the no-brainer numbers soon.  He's at 2600+ hits and 395 HR's.  And he has 4 GG's already.  He'll turn 36 at the beginning of next season (maybe...I mean...who trusts bdays?), so odds are good he has at least 2 more good/solid seasons in him.  You'd have to think he'll finish around 3K hits and around 475-500 HR's.  There's no way Beltre doesn't get it - unless he falls off a cliff now.

[Cristobal]

Oh, and as for the mentions of Adrian Beltre...in my eyes, he's a no-brainer HOFer.  I don't think he'll get in, which is a shame.  But he's absolutely a no-brainer if you spend more than 5 seconds looking at his career.

He spent his entire 20s, barring the ONE flukey year, as a .270/.320/.450 hitter. Even as an elite 3B defender (which he is) that wouldn't get you a second look for his era. Yes, he's had longevity and generally good health to pad his counting stats, but even with the breakout in his 30s, his rate stats still aren't HOF-caliber. He's relying on a few more years at Arlington and maintaining his current pace to make his case for him as having an HOF peak from 2010-?

[Tabe]

He's had an 11-year run (2004-2014) averaging 29.7 homers and 99.9 RBI per 162 games.  That's including a season where he was hurt the whole year (2009) and hit just 8 homers.  

 

So I've got a 3B who averages .285/29/99 while playing elite-level defense.  For 11 years.  More than half of which were spent in pitchers' parks.  And he was decent before that.

 

Yeah, that's a HOFer.

[OSJ]

Okay, leaving aside the fact that Tanner and Mauch haven't a bad word to say about anyone and that the white Frank Thomas was likely a racist prick; I'll leave the Allen baggage on the shelf and look at his career. Comparing him to Billy Williams is actually not that big a stretch until you factor in that Billy Williams was Cal Ripken before there was a Cal Ripken. Allen's career, injury or not was pretty short, (I know so was Ralph Kiner's). I see Allen as borderline at best (like everyone else on the list besides Boyer).

 

Tony Oliva used to get a good deal of support, and I remember one of buddies was always Tony Oliva when we played baseball... The guy was a hitting machine, but sadly, injuries and bad legs took their toll too early.

 

One last thing about Dick Allen... How the hell do you have a feud with Ron Santo, one of the nicest people who has ever lived? In just over fifty years of watching baseball I have yet to hear anyone say a bad word about Ron Santo. Pretty clear who was at fault here.

[Cristobal]

Someone tell Tabe it's not 1985 anymore. .285/29/99 for the 2000s is HotVG. Also, "and before that he was decent" is not an argument for why a player belongs in the Hall.

[Tabe]

Someone tell Tabe it's not 1985 anymore. .285/29/99 for the 2000s is HotVG. Also, "and before that he was decent" is not an argument for why a player belongs in the Hall.

.285/29/99 for 11 years for a 3B that plays elite-level defense isn't HotVG.  Who else has done that in the last 40 years?  Not George Brett.  Not Wade Boggs.  Not Scott Rolen (almost!)  Mike Schmidt?

 

The "and before that he was decent" was basically to say he wasn't a terrible player before the 11-year run in question.  It doesn't add to his case, it doesn't detract from it.  

[EdA]

Trying to get this somewhat on track, here's the potential HOF ballot for this year, per B-Ref.

 

The key new guys on the ballot this year are Pedro, Big Unit and John Smoltz - and Gary Sheffield and Carlos Delgado if we stretch things.

[evilwaldo]

Someone tell Tabe it's not 1985 anymore. .285/29/99 for the 2000s is HotVG. Also, "and before that he was decent" is not an argument for why a player belongs in the Hall.

If you like that you should hear the Jimmy Rollins HOF arguments.

[Tabe]

 

Someone tell Tabe it's not 1985 anymore. .285/29/99 for the 2000s is HotVG. Also, "and before that he was decent" is not an argument for why a player belongs in the Hall.

If you like that you should hear the Jimmy Rollins HOF arguments.

 

Jimmy's got no case.  1 year as an elite player among a career of below-average offense doesn't get you in the HOF unless you play Ozzie-level defense.  And Jimmy, fine defender he might be, ain't Ozzie.

[Beech27]

Beltre keeps HOF company, checking his historical comps on Baseball Reference. (I'd vote yes if he retired today, and of course he's not doing that. He's clearly better than several 3B who are already in.)

 

Sheffield won't make it - the steroids thing is pretty concrete, in his case - but he'll always have a special place in my heart as the guy whose stance I could never imitate in the backyard, and who terrorized me on MVP Baseball worse than any other hitter.