Niners Fan in CT Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Can we just kill the "if it was Cena" talking point dead already. Most of us are big fans of Cena's work. "If it was Triple H" still works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Also, heel managers are supposed to cheat. Not for Brock fucking Lesnar against a small guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAct Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Heenan cheated for Andre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Punk did not whoop on Lesnar for ten minutes. You're clearly just seeing what you want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Was anyone Andre faced as mismatched as Punk vs Lesnar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Was anyone Andre faced as mismatched as Punk vs Lesnar? I think you'd have pull out some Andre in the NWA or Andre in Japan matches to find something like that. Maybe Andre wrestled Chavo Guerrero at some point... I dunno James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unholy Dragon Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I'm of two minds on the Heyman thing. I LOVE that in a No-DQ match, the heel manager would just constantly break up close pins. It would work better if we weren't conditioned to believe every break is a save (ie that Brock couldn't have kicked out on his own) but that's sort of the conditioning we've been given as fans. I do think the match hit an awkward rut of "Punk nearfall, Heyman chase, Brock stuff, Punk fights back, repeat" near the end which didn't help anyone (since Punk chasing down Heyman ALWAYS fed into Brock feeding him teeth). I still loved the match and thought it was easily in the top 5 of the year, but that bit is a major fault of it for me...not a dealbreaker, but a fault nontheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Hogan/Andre was a bigger size disparity than Punk/Lesnar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I don't understand how someone could be pissed at Lesnar selling for Triple H but then watch the match with Punk and not have a similar reaction.. Why bring up the Punk match? Just because it haid the same flaw doesn't make it happening in the ER match any more tolerable. Punk-Lesnar had Lesnar violently murdering Punk which is a lot more entertaining than dreadful HHH control segments. It's also a lot easier to ignore Punk getting his stuff in when they're putting on a compelling match and I'm getting caught up in all the excitement whereas HHH-Lesnar is EXACTLY the type of those WWE propaganda bullshit matches that really, really want to convince you how incredibly awesome and deserving of everything HHH is and it's virtually impossible for those thoughts (of Lesnar overselling for him being utterly ridiculous) not to sink in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I'm of two minds on the Heyman thing. I LOVE that in a No-DQ match, the heel manager would just constantly break up close pins. It would work better if we weren't conditioned to believe every break is a save (ie that Brock couldn't have kicked out on his own) but that's sort of the conditioning we've been given as fans. I do think the match hit an awkward rut of "Punk nearfall, Heyman chase, Brock stuff, Punk fights back, repeat" near the end which didn't help anyone (since Punk chasing down Heyman ALWAYS fed into Brock feeding him teeth). I still loved the match and thought it was easily in the top 5 of the year, but that bit is a major fault of it for me...not a dealbreaker, but a fault nontheless. Kayfabe, Punk was the champ for over a year. You want THAT guy to be skilled enough to take on a monster even if he's at a disadvantage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 A lot of this is that the commentators during the match failed to deliver the payoff of the no-DQ stipulation. On the pre-show they talked about how dangerous Lesnar was going to be with no-DQ, selling that Heyman had suckered Punk in, but the point was that Punk, the lifelong professional wrestler, was better able to take advantage of the stipulation than Lesnar. Cole and JBL never said a word to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Triple H had control because Brock got over aggressive and hurt his knee, and at the end of the match he did shrug off everything Trips had done to him and murdered him dead. Really damn good match.My biggest problem with Brock/Punk is that Punk looked stupid milking his chances to hurt Heyman, repeatedly getting suckered and then destroyed by Brock. Just punch him and go back to the genetic freak monster. Still an excellent match, but Cena/Bryan was better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 So basically you like Punk, you don't like Triple H, and that's the difference between the matches. Gotcha. Both matches were flawed. Both hurt Brock more than they helped either guy. In fact the only match that didn't hurt Brock was the Cena match. Maybe the first Hunter match. Either way neither was objectively great because you're making excuses for one that you don't make for the other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I honestly think Brock came out of the Triple H match looking invincible. He hurt himself, took everything Hunter had, and then casually destroyed him anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 In fact the only match that didn't hurt Brock was the Cena match. You were here then! This place went nuts over that finish because everyone thought that Brock should go over first and Cena would have to Rocky his way back in the rematch and that they just threw money away by sending a signal to Brock and MMA fans and whatever by having Cena go over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 God that Cena/Brock match was amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAct Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 The match was amazing, but I still would have had Brock go over Cena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 At the time, I was okay with the decision. If I had known that slightly less than a year later, they would try to build to Rock/Cena II by calling it the worst year of Cena's career, I would have been all in on "WHY THE FUCK DID CENA WIN?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I don't understand how someone could be pissed at Lesnar selling for Triple H but then watch the match with Punk and not have a similar reaction.. Why bring up the Punk match? Just because it haid the same flaw doesn't make it happening in the ER match any more tolerable. Punk-Lesnar had Lesnar violently murdering Punk which is a lot more entertaining than dreadful HHH control segments. It's also a lot easier to ignore Punk getting his stuff in when they're putting on a compelling match and I'm getting caught up in all the excitement whereas HHH-Lesnar is EXACTLY the type of those WWE propaganda bullshit matches that really, really want to convince you how incredibly awesome and deserving of everything HHH is and it's virtually impossible for those thoughts (of Lesnar overselling for him being utterly ridiculous) not to sink in. Oh alright, so we have traveled back in time to 2003. What are your thoughts on RVD and Booker? Did Steiner get a raw deal as well? No, it's the same shit... Lesnar/Punk was a better match overall but I'm not going to pretend that the ending doesn't knock it down a few pegs. The stretch with Lesnar selling for Punk's super hero comeback was absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Spanish Waiter Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 In fact the only match that didn't hurt Brock was the Cena match.You were here then! This place went nuts over that finish because everyone thought that Brock should go over first and Cena would have to Rocky his way back in the rematch and that they just threw money away by sending a signal to Brock and MMA fans and whatever by having Cena go over. I was one of the ones saying it made sense. But yes, it made no sense a year later. This place went nuts because everyone is a giant drama queen. Remember when everyone was mad Rock beat Punk even though it was the most obvious finish ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Why can't we all just agree that Bryan vs. Cesaro/gauntlet match on RAW is the clear MOTY? Incredible stuff from both guys. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 In fact the only match that didn't hurt Brock was the Cena match. You were here then! This place went nuts over that finish because everyone thought that Brock should go over first and Cena would have to Rocky his way back in the rematch and that they just threw money away by sending a signal to Brock and MMA fans and whatever by having Cena go over. Considering what's happened to Brock's drawing power in the past year and a half, this seems difficult to dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Well, he was still able to bump the buyrate for Summerslam 2012 by a considerable amount, so I think it's debatable that the Cena loss hurt him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 The Summerslam 2012 buyrate is actually pretty interesting. Buys were way up domestically, suggesting that Brock still had drawing power based on UFC name recognition. But they were way down internationally. UFC isn't popular in most of the countries in which WWE runs PPVs, so Brock's only value in those markets was as an unstoppable monster. That went out the window when he lost his first match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Fresh Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I don't understand how someone could be pissed at Lesnar selling for Triple H but then watch the match with Punk and not have a similar reaction..EXACTLY Punk took almost all the abuse in that match (which he should. Being the babyface and much smaller than Brock). What he did get for offense was desperation. Like leaping out of the ring onto the chair Brock was holding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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