Joshi Puroresu Discussion Thread

[Dshuks]

Looking back does anyone miss how Stardom was like back in 2014?

 

You had great matches like Io vs Takumi , Nanae/Kairi vs Yoshiko/Io , Nanae/Kairi vs Takumi/Risa , Nanae vs Kairi, Nanae vs Io, Koguma/Kurumi vs Takumi/Risa, Act vs Kairi.  

The Nanae/Kairi tag team was great. 

Takumi made a huge leap from being a sort of awkward rookie with potential, to a main event caliber talent. 

Koguma started showing signs that she was going to be very good. 

Mayu started to show flashes of her current ability .

Io's second half of her  title reign was very good.

They seemed to have a good working relationship with Ice Ribbon.

Gajiin were usually relegated to opening matches of the show.

There was more than one worth watching match at every Korakuen.

 

I mean people talk about 2015 like it wash some great year for Stardom, when it was just as top heavy as 2016,  in the sense that while their were a handful of great matches but the stuff surrounding them was not very good. 2014 imo was the last "great" year for Stardom.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Kevin Wilson]

2014 Stardom was great, but the somewhat forced restart in 2015 was going to lead to a dip in match quality throughout the card. Losing Takumi, Yoshiko, Nanae, Act, and Koguma in a six month period was killer. But in 2015, having Kairi and Mayu at the top of the card still felt fresh, which is probably why it is remembered more fondly than 2016, plus having Satomura in the mix more.

[donsem43]

Stardom has always been a top heavy promotion. It's no coincidence that people have soured on them right when the stopped reliably producing very good/great matches on top.

[Hoope]

Also 2015 didnt have mess like Santana and Chelsea on the cards every month. Watching Star Fire in the undercard was pretty fun

 

And back to Ice Ribbon, it's all the same people on the same shows with some wildcards thrown in, but you can never ever say that Ice Ribbon cards are repetitive, cuz they mix it up like it's nobody's business. And surprisingly, it gives fresh, good cards. When you have the same cards almost every show, and the only wildcard mixups are mediocre/terrible gaijin aside from an occasional Evie or Kellie Skater, and Kairi especially is stuck being dragged down by those same gaijin, of course it's gonna be bad. 2015 wasn't extreme on that, and even then you had some okay-decent ones, and in the GP you had outsiders having good matches there.

[Kevin Wilson]

5 minutes ago, donsem43 said:

Stardom has always been a top heavy promotion. It's no coincidence that people have soured on them right when the stopped reliably producing very good/great matches on top.

I honestly don't think they were in 2014. They had Io/Yoshiko/Taiyo/Nanae on top, then Mayu/Kairi/Act beneath them, then vets like Kyoko/Alpha Female anchoring the midcard with young wrestlers like Takumi/Koguma in the openers. The 2014 roster looks so strong compared to their 2016 roster top to bottom, most promotions are 'top heavy' in the sense that they is where they focus their best wrestlers but I think their cards were a lot more complete in 2014.

[donsem43]

What shows were carried by the midcard?

For all the bitching people do about foreign wrestlers, no mention of how Melissa's run in '14 was a dud, how bad Starfire was that year compared to how much she improved in the next,and how come someone as great Heidi Lovelace was booked like a random Oedo Tai goon. Never mind that the drop in quality happened around the same time as Oedo Tai and there heel garbage started getting pushed more.

[Dshuks]

1 hour ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I honestly don't think they were in 2014. They had Io/Yoshiko/Taiyo/Nanae on top, then Mayu/Kairi/Act beneath them, then vets like Kyoko/Alpha Female anchoring the midcard with young wrestlers like Takumi/Koguma in the openers. The 2014 roster looks so strong compared to their 2016 roster top to bottom, most promotions are 'top heavy' in the sense that they is where they focus their best wrestlers but I think their cards were a lot more complete in 2014.

I'd agree with this 

 The January  2014 Korakuen show had

Nanae/Wakizawa vs Alpha/Kimura

 Act vs Kairi 

and Io vs Natsuki 

 

Natsuki's retirement show had 

Io vs Takumi

and Natsuki vs Nanae 

 

The 2014 5 star gp finals had 

Mayu vs Koguma 

Yoshiko vs  Takumi

Io vs Nanae 

Io vs Yoshiko 

 

The November 2014 show ( Which is imo one of Stardom's best shows ever) had 

Mayu vs Wikizawa

Koguma/Kurumi vs Takumi/Risa Sera 

Io/Yoshiko  vs Nanae/Kairi 

 

Most of the 2014 Korakuen shows had at least one or two quality matches outside of the main event . Nowadays it's basically whatever match Io is in and nothing else. Part of that is just horrible allocation of talent I mean why is Mayu working pointless matches against  Saori ? Why not give her a high-speed defense against Yoneyama , Natsumi, or even Momo again? Why not give Kairi a defense against Kyona, Momo,  or Saori? Heck even put Azumi against one of them.  

 

But nope Rossy has to use horrible green Gajiin to fill out his cards . Who cares if they injure his native talent in the process.

 

 

 

[Kevin Wilson]

23 minutes ago, donsem43 said:

What shows were carried by the midcard?

For all the bitching people do about foreign wrestlers, no mention of how Melissa's run in '14 was a dud, how bad Starfire was that year compared to how much she improved in the next,and how come someone as great Heidi Lovelace was booked like a random Oedo Tai goon. Never mind that the drop in quality happened around the same time as Oedo Tai and there heel garbage started getting pushed more.

A show shouldn't be "carried" by the midcard, then it isn't the midcard. The midcard should be fun matches that keep the fans engaged leading to the big matches. If the midcard is carrying a promotion, that is a much worse sign than a promotion being top-heavy. WCW was being carried in 1999 by their midcard and didn't exist two years later.

I don't think anyone mentioned Melissa because up to this point we hadn't been talking about 2014 and she wasn't a big part of the promotion. Gaijins will always be hit and miss in terms of how they mesh with a Joshi promotion, that's life. What can ya do.

[Dshuks]

9 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

A show shouldn't be "carried" by the midcard, then it isn't the midcard. The midcard should be fun matches that keep the fans engaged leading to the big matches. If the midcard is carrying a promotion, that is a much worse sign than a promotion being top-heavy. WCW was being carried in 1999 by their midcard and didn't exist two years later.

I don't think anyone mentioned Melissa because up to this point we hadn't been talking about 2014 and she wasn't a big part of the promotion. Gaijins will always be hit and miss in terms of how they mesh with a Joshi promotion, that's life. What can ya do.

Not book so many? 

[Eivion]

Dshuks it seems like your problem is more a complaint of gaijin than anything else.

Wrestling wise I don't really think Stardom was that much better in 2014 than they are in 2016. Its more a case of the having a more complete roster and decent hierarchy that showed growth.

[Dshuks]

17 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Dshuks it seems like your problem is more a complaint of gaijin than anything else.

Wrestling wise I don't really think Stardom was that much better in 2014 than they are in 2016. Its more a case of the having a more complete roster and decent hierarchy that showed growth.

 

To  a certain extent yes. Having Chelsea Green in the semi-main  on the card is horrible, and should not be allowed for any respectable joshi promotion, thats something that a promotion like  Reina would do.

I also don't like how they use certain talent though. Whethe fit be rookies like Kyona, or vets like Kagetsu or Yoneyama. Part of the reason they have to rely on outsiders is because they don't spread the talent out enough.

 

If you had more singles matches on the card instead of group tags with Oedi Tai, and Yoneyama and the kids. You could probably get away with one Gajiin match on the card. 

 

[Eivion]

Kyona was used more or less exactly how she should have been. I do agree that more could have been done with Kagetsu. I'm mixed on Yoneyama. I'm honestly not quite sure what you mean with that comment of spreading talent out.

Are the less singles matches now by any decent extent than there were in previous years?

[Dshuks]

2 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Kyona was used more or less exactly how she should have been. I do agree that more could have been done with Kagetsu. I'm mixed on Yoneyama. I'm honestly not quite sure what you mean with that comment of spreading talent out.

Are the less singles matches now by any decent extent than there were in previous years?

I mean instead of having one big rookie kids match at the start of the show split them into two singles matches.

Instead of doing  a big Oedi tai match  vs  some combination of  Kyona, Hirmoi, Momo, whoever else.

Do some singles matches like Kyona vs Hiromi , Momo vs Hiromi, Kyona vs Natsumi , Momo vs Yoneyama , Kyona vs Saori, Kyona vs Kagetsu, Momo vs Kagetsu etc.

Also to your comment that Kyona was used well her first year I'd point to Yuzuki's white belt reign. Her entire reign was made up of facing  native rookie wrestlers, and having good competitive matches with all of them.      

 Why can't Kairi do that with the likes of Momo or Kyona? I think she had one defense against Hiromi who is the least ready out of the three to be getting title matches. Same with Mayu and the high speed belt.   

I get that you should not rush rookies but at the same time  at the state Stardom is in at the moment they need more upper card talent. Takumi was close to main event ready just a little over a year into her career. She debuted in March (or April?)  2013  , and was already capable of having a great match with Io  by July 2014.  Eventually you have to give Kyona opportunities to sink or swim. 

 

 

[Hoope]

Kyona and Kagetsu have been in about 2 or 3 post match scuffles and 5 million matches in 6-8 person tags and a 4 way together. Now JK Green doesnt win tag league and break up. Any fucking day with this one, easy to do, potentially great match, man.

[Dshuks]

4 minutes ago, Hoope said:

Kyona and Kagetsu have been in about 2 or 3 post match scuffles and 5 million matches in 6-8 person tags and a 4 way together. Now JK Green doesnt win tag league and break up

 

Any fucking day with this one, easy to do, potentially great match, man.

Problem with it now is it would be filled with Oedi tai interference.

[.STAP]

Iroha was given the rocket push because she's tall as fuck and athletic. It's fairly common that 'genetic freaks' get big pushes early in joshi (Bito, Yuzupon, C-Hash or Yoshiko). IDK if any of the current crop of rookies are on that level. Kyona looks like a powerhouse, but she doesn't wrestle like one.

[Eivion]

2 hours ago, Dshuks said:

I mean instead of having one big rookie kids match at the start of the show split them into two singles matches.

Instead of doing  a big Oedi tai match  vs  some combination of  Kyona, Hirmoi, Momo, whoever else.

Do some singles matches like Kyona vs Hiromi , Momo vs Hiromi, Kyona vs Natsumi , Momo vs Yoneyama , Kyona vs Saori, Kyona vs Kagetsu, Momo vs Kagetsu etc.

Also to your comment that Kyona was used well her first year I'd point to Yuzuki's white belt reign. Her entire reign was made up of facing  native rookie wrestlers, and having good competitive matches with all of them.      

 Why can't Kairi do that with the likes of Momo or Kyona? I think she had one defense against Hiromi who is the least ready out of the three to be getting title matches. Same with Mayu and the high speed belt.   

I get that you should not rush rookies but at the same time  at the state Stardom is in at the moment they need more upper card talent. Takumi was close to main event ready just a little over a year into her career. She debuted in March (or April?)  2013  , and was already capable of having a great match with Io  by July 2014.  Eventually you have to give Kyona opportunities to sink or swim. 

 

 

Some of the matches you are talking about actually did happen.

Aikawa was a rookie like most of the wrestlers she faced. You can't really do that with Kairi who is a former red belt champ. She never made a defense against Hiromi. Mayu did make a defense against Momo. It kind of was treated a bit of a graduation to the next level, hence why it happened.

Takumi was treated somewhat as a super rookie. Kyona is not. She will probably get bigger opportunities next year, but there wasn't a reason to do so this year. You have to understand a promotion can only get away with such things during its first year or two. There was no way in hell they were moving up any of last year's rookies unless they had a background like Chihiro Hashimoto. Now that a year has actually passed you will probably see things change a little, especially as more debuts occur.

I guess none of this bothers me near as much as it seems to bother you because I already went through this sort of a stuff with Mutoh's AJPW. From the mixed bag of gaijin to building rookies both slowly and speedily. I can tell you the speedy push usually failed. You have to have a certain background or level of talent to be excused in these cases and none of the current crop had them.

[Dshuks]

6 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Some of the matches you are talking about actually did happen.

Aikawa was a rookie like most of the wrestlers she faced. You can't really do that with Kairi who is a former red belt champ. She never made a defense against Hiromi. Mayu did make a defense against Momo. It kind of was treated a bit of a graduation to the next level, hence why it happened.

Takumi was treated somewhat as a super rookie. Kyona is not. She will probably get bigger opportunities next year, but there wasn't a reason to do so this year. You have to understand a promotion can only get away with such things during its first year or two. There was no way in hell they were moving up any of last year's rookies unless they had a background like Chihiro Hashimoto. Now that a year has actually passed you will probably see things change a little, especially as more debuts occur.

I guess none of this bothers me near as much as it seems to bother you because I already went through this sort of a stuff with Mutoh's AJPW. From the mixed bag of gaijin to building rookies both slowly and speedily. I can tell you the speedy push usually failed. You have to have a certain background or level of talent to be excused in these cases and none of the current crop had them.

 

Ok I still think the product is boring and substandard . lol.

Io's going to regret not leaving. She has nothing to do. 

 

 

[Eivion]

Then why do you still watch?

[Dshuks]

8 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Then why do you watch?

Because I like like Io, Kairi, Mayu, Kyona, and Momo.

Just hate the booking and over reliance on Gajiin  with a passion. 

You can like certain aspects of a product, but dislike product as a whole .

To use an American TV show as an example. Viola Davis is an amazing actress , one of the best out there. That doesn't prevent how to get away with murder from being a melodramatic mess, with poor writing and acting outside of Viola.   

 

[Hoope]

I saw about 4 shitty gaijin come in and get White and High Speed Title shots and they looked like it was their first or 2nd match. Kyona getting A title shot ain't gonna make people walk out or roll their eyes in disgust, not like the ones that have already

 

56 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Then why do you still watch?

Azumi segment(not even the match, its the same every time, the post match), Hana Kimura bodysuit, what Kyona and Momo does, Kairi match if she ever wrestles someone good which is rare it seems, and the usual good main event(apart from that GP final)

But I would never recommend a full Stardom show to anyone. Not this year

[Trocar Slush Weasel]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:14 PM, Ligerbusa said:

Just watched the tag league finals. Io said she was going to bring Mayu into her new unit with HZK but decided against it because Mayu has lost all the fire she once had. Kairi was great on after the match, trying to get Mayu to insult Io, shooing Rosa away and just being Kairi.

Match was good but a bit tough to watch knowing the outcome. Crowd was hot.

 

It makes less sense the way it played out than reading the description.  They tease dissension in the semis because Mayu won't tag in.  Then there's some miscommunication but they win anyway.  Then Io waits 15 minutes into the tourney final to turn on Mayu?  That's just dumb.  Plus, you have the decision to have them beat Momo/Kyona.  Io and Mayu were bumping like Sami bumps for Owens, you had the miscommunication spots and then you just have them win anyway.  Why not have them lose there, then Io has a good reason to dump Mayu.  I think they just panicked.

[Trocar Slush Weasel]

3 hours ago, .STAP said:

Kyona looks like a powerhouse, but she doesn't wrestle like one.

Unfortunately, she's only 5'1".  I realize that pretty much everybody else is in Stardom as well until she goes against the foreigners..  Except for Bito and I noticed they're giving her some muscle spots, like the double suplex in the tag finals and the delayed suplex thingy where she took Io and dumped her on Mayu.

[Hoope]

33 minutes ago, Trocar Slush Weasel said:

It makes less sense the way it played out than reading the description.  They tease dissension in the semis because Mayu won't tag in.  Then there's some miscommunication but they win anyway.  Then Io waits 15 minutes into the tourney final to turn on Mayu?  That's just dumb.  Plus, you have the decision to have them beat Momo/Kyona.  Io and Mayu were bumping like Sami bumps for Owens, you had the miscommunication spots and then you just have them win anyway.  Why not have them lose there, then Io has a good reason to dump Mayu.  I think they just panicked.

What's funnier and ruins this explanation is that the 2 matches they won in the tournament before the finals were won by Mayu if I recall correctly. What's Io's explanation to that? And you can't even use the excuse of "she's a heel" for this

 

25 minutes ago, Trocar Slush Weasel said:

Unfortunately, she's only 5'1".  I realize that pretty much everybody else is in Stardom as well until she goes against the foreigners..  Except for Bito and I noticed they're giving her some muscle spots, like the double suplex in the tag finals and the delayed suplex thingy where she took Io and dumped her on Mayu.

Yeah looking at how DDT and New Japan have Takeshita and Okada, 2 skinny guys with no muscle, doing hoss shoulder block off spots with actual hosses and sometimes winning, there's value in your height to do power spots in Japan. The thing is that some other girls in joshi at her height or just a little taller like Yamashita, Yoshiko and Chihiro do have power spots, but have other styles too. Yamashita(kinda) and Yoshiko are brawlers and Chihiro a shoot wrestler.

[Eivion]

52 minutes ago, Hoope said:

I saw about 4 shitty gaijin come in and get White and High Speed Title shots and they looked like it was their first or 2nd match. Kyona getting A title shot ain't gonna make people walk out or roll their eyes in disgust, not like the ones that have already

Kyona getting a shot wouldn't make people walk away in disgust, but it would have made less sense than a gaijin with actual experience behind them getting a shot, shitty or not.

48 minutes ago, Trocar Slush Weasel said:

It makes less sense the way it played out than reading the description.  They tease dissension in the semis because Mayu won't tag in.  Then there's some miscommunication but they win anyway.  Then Io waits 15 minutes into the tourney final to turn on Mayu?  That's just dumb.  Plus, you have the decision to have them beat Momo/Kyona.  Io and Mayu were bumping like Sami bumps for Owens, you had the miscommunication spots and then you just have them win anyway.  Why not have them lose there, then Io has a good reason to dump Mayu.  I think they just panicked.

Again not sure why they had Io turn before the end of the final. It would have made so much more sense for Mayu to lose first, especially after she nearly lost them the match to JKGreen. If I hadn't know the finish beforehand that would have been what I expected. I do think they rushed it, but I can only complain so much since I've wanted heel Io for a while now and I like it as a direction. I just wish they played it out better.