Hey, Huckleberries: All Things American Western

[Brian Fowler]

I think Liberty Valence came up in the TV thread before we launched this thread.

[Craig H]

Man, from episode 7 or 8 on, the first season of Justified is a completely different show and it's awesome. For a first season, that was an impressive last couple of episodes to close out season one. 

[caley]

What are people's opinions on Rio Bravo versus El Dorado? I mean, they're basically the same movie. So which do you prefer and why?

Somehow I've never seen 'El Dorado' but Wayne and Mitchum?!  I'm in!

 

I love 'Rio Bravo' as it was basically a reply to 'High Noon' (which I also love!) basically making a movie that counter-acted the "people will ditch you when the going gets tough" vibe of 'High Noon' for a 'good folk sticking together against evil and facing overwhelming odds and having each other's backs' message.  And I can get down with both sentiments. 

[EVA]

Yo, yo, yo, let me speak on this:

It's so weird...What happened with that first season of Justified because so far it's in a vacuum, but episode 8, and really, episode 7, are tonally different from the episodes that preceded it. It feels less like a USA Network show and more like a FX show.

I totally understand the reaction new viewers of JUSTIFIED are having to the first season. The show's reputation doesn't line up with the first batch of episodes at all. I watched the show live from Day 1, but I remember dropping out after the 3rd episode and not coming back until the end of the first season.

The finale had my ass back in the seat for next season, and it hasn't moved since. (But, boy, it got antsy in season 5.)

I think the idea was (like most Joss Whedon shows, actually) to set up the premise with a bunch of "bad guy of the week" episodes before attempting some "big picture" serial storytelling. In a way I found it refreshing from so many current TV shows that are basically just one story chopped up into hour-long slices, but in season 2 it's one big story arc and it really is much better than season 1.

Okay, here's the story on the development of the show, for anyone who gives a fuck:

It was originally conceived to be more of a procedural series of stand-alone episodes; the idea being they would be making one-hour mini-Elmore Leonard movies every week. Boyd was originally killed in the pilot, as he was in the story the pilot was based on, but they recognized Goggins and Olyphant had great chemistry together, so they wrote in an out that would allow them to bring him back as a recurring nemesis for Raylan if he was interested. Needless to say, he was, but he was already committed to PREDATORS at the time, so they couldn't use him full-time until that was done.

At some point between the pilot and Goggins' full-time return, the high-ups at FX got a look at the early episodes and basically said, "WTF ARE YOU DOING?" They politely encouraged Graham Yost to embrace the type of serialization FX is known for and to utilize the fuck out of Goggins, and thus the back end of the season was reconfigured around the Crowder family, and the rest is history...

I've been told I need to see Justified, and intend to at some point or another. It certainly features enough actors that I'm quite fond of, including my perennial supercrush Alicia Witt. But, wait a sec, isn't that show set in the present-day? How's it qualify as being a Western?

You probably know this, but Elmore Leonard got his start writing Westerns (3:30 to Yuma, Valdez Is Coming, Hombre). When Westerns started going out of style, he jumped over to writing modern crime novels...but basically kept writing them like was still writing Westerns. As Craig mentioned, Raylan Givens conducts himself rather anachronistically as an Old West lawman, and a great deal of the show's drama and humor is derived from people being incredulous at his actions. The very first scene of the series is Raylan issuing a classic "get outta town by noon or I'll shoot you on sight" ultimatum to a disbelieving thug.

Alicia Witt is great on the show, btw.

[piranesi]

I'm enjoying playing "find the Deadwood actor" cameo too.

[EVA]

Oh, yeah, Olyphant is Hogan-esque in his ability to get his buddies employed.

[Jingus]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that I'd given up on OUaTitW. (The fascinating give-and-take between Jason Robards and the widow does make me want to see where this story's going.) I'll definitely finish it, the movie's got its hooks in plenty deep enough for that. Just wishing that some of the scenes would speed the fuck up or explain themselves, like Cheyenne and Harmonica's first meeting.

As to the question of eras, I guess I'm just nitpicky on that point. I don't count it as a Western unless it's set in the distant past. I know that makes no damn sense, I know that I'm saying City Slickers doesn't count and that's probably wrong; I also know that I'm saying No Country For Old Men doesn't count, and I don't give a fuck about that one, I've always been in a tiny bewildered minority when it comes to that staggeringly illogical movie. But in general, I'd argue that any modern-day setting makes it a hybrid genre at the very least.

[Brian Fowler]

That's better.  Now go fucking finish it.

 

People who dislike OUATITW are the worst kind of people.

[Craig H]

Many thanks EVA to the detailed explanation on the history of Justified. I assumed some of that to be the case, but I didn't know if it was just a hunch or what. In addition to the more serialized nature, the camera work and lighting all change as well. I'm loving the shit out of season 2 as well. Basically, from episode 8 of season 1 until now, it's been extremely enjoyable.

 

My dream now is that with Justified and SoA both wrapping up at around the same time, we can get a new series with Deadwood, Justified, SoA and The Shield alums as regulars. Hell, put that one in the old west too, which yes, is difficult, considering all of the costs involved.

[Craig H]

Also, man, do I ever hate Arlo. What a cocksucker that guy is.

[piranesi]

Goggins is astounding.  On THE SHIELD mostly he just got to look nervous.  But here, he's really getting to stretch out. It's gotta be a trip as an actor playing a character who is himself one of the greatest actors in the world.  Like, you have to act out a guy who, in his own world, is probably a better actor than you and who's so good he doesn't even know himself when he's telling the truth and when he's lying.

[Biz Smarkie]

His sermon at the town hall is one of the greatest oratory moments this side of Paul Heyman. Have you made it to the ep when the man who played Dan Doherty shows up? Sooo awesome

[piranesi]

Yeah.  I'm hoping he returns somehow.  Johnny from the Gem was great in the Stephen Root episode.  and Ray McKinnon was king-sized.

 

Just about to start season 2.  Really liked the Arlo/Raylan standoff in the hotel.  "How long have you known?"  "I think I've always known."

[J.H.]

The Outlaw Josey Wales remains my favorite Western by far. It is insanely quotable, has Chief Dan George being Yoda before Yoda was cool and Clint Eastwood?

Jesus Clint Eastwood is even more epic here than he is in the Man With No Name series. The fact that he has a name actually makes him more badass in fact, because when Josey Wales name is spoken people either run for cover or try to draw iron on him.

 

"Dyin' ain't much of a livin' boy" sums up his character. Its not Josey Wales being cocky, its just a man who knows his ability to read an opponent (a conversation that he and Lone Watie have about one gunfight in fact). Josey Wales is probably one of the best examples of understanding the body language and psychology of an actual gunfight..

 

The scene where Wales and Ten-Bears negotiate truce is amazing as well. Both men respect each other by reputation and out of hatred of the Union but aren't afraid to let the other know that mutual hatred will only get their peace so far.

 

Josey: You be Ten Bears?
Ten Bears: I am Ten Bears.
Josey: I'm Josey Wales.
Ten Bears: I have heard. You're the Gray Rider. You would not make peace with the Blue Coats. You may go in peace.

Josey: I reckon not. Got nowhere to go.
Ten Bears: Then you will die.
Josey: I came here to die with you. Or live with you. Dying ain't so hard for men like you and me, it's living that's hard; when all you ever cared about has been butchered or raped. Governments don't live together, people live together. With governments you don't always get a fair word or a fair fight. Well I've come here to give you either one, or get either one from you. I came here like this so you'll know my word of death is true. And that my word of life is then true. The bear lives here, the wolf, the antelope, the Comanche. And so will we. Now, we'll only hunt what we need to live on, same as the Comanche does. And every spring when the grass turns green and the Comanche moves north, he can rest here in peace, butcher some of our cattle and jerk beef for the journey. The sign of the Comanche, that will be on our lodge. That's my word of life.
Ten Bears: And your word of death?
Josey: It's here in my pistols, there in your rifles. I'm here for either one.
Ten Bears: These things you say we will have, we already have.
Josey: That's true. I ain't promising you nothing extra. I'm just giving you life and you're giving me life. And I'm saying that men can live together without butchering one another.
Ten Bears: It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double-tongues. There is iron in your word of death for all Comanche to see. And so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron, it must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life. So shall it be.

 

So fucking awesome, so fucking epic. Its easily one of my top 5 movies ever!

 

James

[RUkered]

Also, man, do I ever hate Arlo. What a cocksucker that guy is.

Originally just came in here to say that I'm really enjoying watching someone fall in love with the show, and you guys are reminding me of so much awesome stuff.

But if you hate Arlo now, just wait. That thing he did during the Quarles season - hoo boy. That's all I'll say - don't want to spoil anything, nor tempt anyone with spoiler tags.

[scraylo187]

If you haven't seen Hell of Wheels, it's been pretty great. I've never seen Deadwood but a friend of mine called Hell it's 'spiritual sequel' if that sells anything for you.

 

Good acting, and they hit some interesting angles I haven't seen in many westerns, like dealing with militant mormon crazies. The show also has my new favorite TV villain THE SWEDE. 

 

Also I'm pretty sure they have a guy that's only in charge of making sure that the main character looks super bad ass when he walks.

[Craig H]

Done with season 2 of Justified. Such a downer near the end of that season, but many people I wanted dead were all killed.

Boyd's character arc is fucking awesome too.

[piranesi]

Done with season 2 of Justified. Such a downer near the end of that season, but many people I wanted dead were all killed.

Boyd's character arc is fucking awesome too.

 

I've now fallen way behind.  I'm just done with the season 2 premier.  And while season 1 ended pretty good.  I was not expecting the jump in level of sheer darkness that we hit with the beginning of season 2.  But this is kind of what I had expected.  Like, the show is now what I thought it was going to be.  That Mags Bennett shit was THE SHIELD level of dark.

[EVA]

Margo Martindale was so good in season 2, she forced the Emmys to actually recognize the existence of FX.

[Jingus]

Re-finishing the first season of Deadwood again: man, what a GREAT cast. You rarely ever get an ensemble like this where every single person is pulling more than their fair share of the weight, resulting in what's practically an acting clinic. The guy who plays the brain-damaged Reverend was a real standout to me this time, fearlessly going into such true and uncomfortable places that most actors would be afraid to even flirt with.

If you haven't seen Hell of Wheels, it's been pretty great. I've never seen Deadwood but a friend of mine called Hell it's 'spiritual sequel' if that sells anything for you.

 

Good acting, and they hit some interesting angles I haven't seen in many westerns, like dealing with militant mormon crazies. The show also has my new favorite TV villain THE SWEDE. 

 

Also I'm pretty sure they have a guy that's only in charge of making sure that the main character looks super bad ass when he walks.

I'd call it more of a Deadwood-wannabe than anything else, but the show is fun enough to be worthwhile. The Swede is indeed a king-sized douchebag, I wish that guy got more work (and in more interesting parts than his thankless forgettable role on True Blood). Colm Meany is awesome as sort of a nise-Al Swearengin, too. So it's too damn bad about the show's incredibly inconsistent plots, which jerk back and forth between fascinating shit and a whole lot of pointless filler and way-too-often hitting of the Russo Reset Button to go back to the status quo after events which should've changed everything.

[John from Cincinnati]

The guy who plays the brain-damaged Reverend was a real standout to me this time, fearlessly going into such true and uncomfortable places that most actors would be afraid to even flirt with.

 

That'd be Ray McKinnon, the creative muscle behind Sundance's Rectify. It's not a western, but you should watch it anyway. Not you specifically, Jingus. I'm referring to anyone who sees this post. 

 

Since contemporary TV westerns like Justify seem to be fair game in this thread, I'm wondering if anybody watches Longmire. I've never seen an episode, but wouldn't mind hearing opinions. Looks like dog shit.

[Craig H]

Boyd Crowder is the most snappiest dressed hillbilly I've ever seen. If I ever get as skinny as Walton Goggins, I may start buttoning my collar button and wear a pea coat all the time.

[piranesi]

Something in JUSTIFIED I hope they fix a bit is the relative blankness of Raylan himself.  I'm mid-season 2 and he's still essentially a blank slate. Most of his interactions are little more than bemused quips, with a hard look thrown in once or twice per episode.  He's actually revealed less of himself than Seth Bullock, if that's possible.

There were a few hints in season 1 of some direction for the character.  His ex-wife telling him he was the most angry man she'd ever met.  A few great moments in the episode where Stephen Root was the asshole cowboy judge, where he seemed to see himself reflected in the guy and sort of recoiled in disgust.  And, of course, all the scenes with him and Arlo.

But compared to Boyd, who is undergoing this momentous character development, Raylan has been reduced to a kind of animatronic.  He's just empty.  Yeah, he showed some protectiveness for that kid in season two, but that's hardly interesting.  Shit, Horatio Caine was protective of kids too.  That's kind of bland, uninformative "hero" posturing.

[Craig H]

Raylan reveals more of himself in season 3. Stick with it. I'm on episode 12 of season 3 and it's fucking awesome. Shit feels like it's about to explode.

[Craig H]

Wow. Things literally did explode.